Hot start failure, long crank times
 

Hi, I just joined the club, but I've been reading the forums since I bought my 8.
I have a 2005 shinka AT with 103k. Bought it used with maintenance records, one previous owner who took great care of the car. Still has the original engine, starter and battery.

I just started having the hot start issues a couple months ago. It's starting to get worse and more frequent and a few days ago, after about 20 minutes of driving on a highway, it died while braking toward a stop light while in rush hour traffic. It took nearly 30 minutes to start back up. I've read several posts about this problem and it seems to be alarmingly common. I have no loss of power, or any strange sounds, no smoke from the exhaust, nothing unusual other than what I stated above. The exhaust did backfire upon restart after it died in traffic. I use GTX 5w-20 non-synthetic oil and change it at a minimum every 3k checking it weekly, high octane gas with occasional fuel treatments. I'm changing the plugs tomorrow, ngk iridiums. Anyone have any suggestions on what I can do to fix this problem and keep my car from dying in traffic again? What are the best places to get parts? I'm considering the starter, coils, cats, and plugs to be possible culprits and not sure which to go to next if the new plugs don't fix it. Thanks in advance.

are the plugs and coils original??
Test the coils and wires. Check which starter # you have. Visually inspect your cat converter.
There are numerous DIY's on this forum that will help you properly diagnose the issue. Click the google link in my sig and use your own key words to search the forums more efficiently.

There may be other issues, but lets start with the easy stuff, first ;)

Thanks for the reply :)I'm assuming that the plugs are not original, pretty certain that the coils and wires are though because the wire boots on the lead still have the green and blue tape. I'm guessing that there is info on how to check the coils in one of the DIY forums? After I change the plugs, I'll post an update.

I'd recommend you test the coils and wires to make sure they need replacing. Then, order some and change at the same time as plugs. Where are you located? Prices vary, depending on location.
While you're reading, stop by these threads and acquaint yourself a little more with the car, and the forums
New and Potential Owner’s, Start Here https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-forum-197/new-potential-owners-start-here-202454/
Congratulations, you got an 8 https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-forum-197/congratulations-you-got-8-a-202548/
New Owner FAQ’s https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...&highlight=FAQ

Also, make sure you read the “stickies” in each sub-forum

Good luck

EDIT: here's a DIY to test your coils https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-do-yourself-forum-73/diy-testing-all-rx-8-coils-gm-ls2-yukon-coils-sparkplug-wires-222641/

In addition to RX8Soldier's post...
Starting Issues? START HERE

Load test the battery while you're at it.

Thanks a lot guys, I read through most of those links, some I had read previously. Seems like I'm on the right path, just need to get the plugs swapped asap. I found that coolant seal issue to be interesting, something I might look into because my coolant light comes at random times.

I read something about msp-13 and msp-16 in one of the threads, I have no idea what those mean and there wasn't clarification in the thread, just to make sure that they've been done.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Arx8club....coolant+sensor
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Arx8club.com+msp-16

Bunch of lazy users lately uh?

ok, I changed the plugs and put in a k&n box filter yesterday. Here's some pics of the plugs.
Attachment 239256
Attachment 239257
Attachment 239258
Attachment 239259

Obviously they are jacked up. I put the new plugs in and drove to pick up my air filter, when leaving the parts store, it still has the starting issue. I'm guessing the starter is bad was the culprit in fouling out the plugs so badly. It did manage to crank over though and drives fine once it's started, noticeable improvement in idle with the new plugs and runs great with the new k&n. But...
To make things even better, I get in my car to go to work this morning and it won't start at all, not even close. Am I correct in thinking that I need a new starter? Anyone know how I can tell the difference in the OEM weak starter and the replacement stronger starter? I've searched online and I honestly can't tell one from the other.

Finally found a good post about the msp16, thanks soldier

You keep asking questions, to which I've already given you an answer.

The answer is: Use the "site:rx8club.com "enter key words" google feature. Try using it.

Edit: Grace Excel also posted a good link. Did you bother to read it?

this is the exact order of my failure, first longer cranking when hot, then it simply wont start.

I would really recommend, you get a compression check done, before deciding to throw more money towards starts/coils etc.

A compression test isn't exactly cheap.
The solution is to test the parts, and replace accordingly. I don't think compression test is a bad idea. I would just be better to test your parts, first.

I understand what you are saying RX8Soldier, but the general pattern of people on this forum, generally dont *test* the parts, they go out and replace it, one by one, then do a compression test afterwords.

If you are going to replace parts without checking your original items for faults, your better off doing a comp test first, do see if after all the money spent it will give you results, if it turns out alright, that is a major relief for yourself, or you can really sit down and consider your options

Agreed! I try to emphasize "testing" when I give my advice :)

Yes I did read Grace's post, which is why I think it's my starter. It could be low engine compression too. My battery is fine, and I've tried every parts store within 30 miles for a coil tester and they all look at me like I'm an alien. I read about a tester that checks the coils and plugs at once on one of the threads that a guy picked up at Napa but I can't find one. I don't have a meter to test the coils so I'm SOL on testing that right now. A compression test at my local dealer is gonna cost me about the same as a new starter anyway and I can't afford either of them right now. I'm reading every post I can find that is related to my issue as well as all of the links posted here. So sorry to ask questions on a forum. o.O

oh, and yes I've inspected the coil connections and inspected the plug wires. Everything is good on that front, sorry hands on/visual check is best I can do at the moment.

The easiest way to test the coils, and its mentioned right in the Mazda Repair manual, is to get a hold of a timing light, hook it up to each ignition wire one by one, and see if you are getting spark while the engine is running.

If you are getting consistent spark from all the coils, then your coils are potentially fine. But that doesn't mean that they are perfect. They might be getting weak.

To test how strong they are, you need a spark testing tool.
Looks like a spark plug, but gives you an adjustable gap you can set.

There's no point replacing the starter until you have ensured that the spark plugs, wires, and ignition coils are in good shape.

BC.

Mentioned already, but that's the tool I've been searching everywhere for and no one around here knows what the hell I'm talking about. Guess I'll have to try and find one online. And yes, totally agree about testing the wires and coils first, but really there isn't much of a price difference in new coils/wires/plugs than a starter.

Just verified with the dealership that my 8 never got the upgraded starter, battery, msp-13 or msp-16 flashes. Also no compression check on record and it is the original engine. $160 for compression check, $100 for msp-16. And he also told me that the engine compression issue isn't a recall so if the compression test fails, I have to pay for the engine replacement. Figures...just went over 100,000 miles :cussing:

You have an eBay account? Here's one you can buy: Electronic Ignition Spark Tester and this is the DIY: Testing... Coils and Spark Plug Wires.

Found an ignition tester finally. I'm getting spark through the coils and wires. It's definitely flooded, going through the dealership deflood procedure right now and the brand new plugs were soaked. Blasted the plugs with ether start spray and playing the waiting game now. The engine seems to have plenty of compression while blowing out the excess fuel during the deflood, so that's a promising sign. Once I get it started, I'll see how it works and then test the starter. The starter does sound very weak upon initial crank and it is the original '05 starter, so it will probably fail the test.

Get that car started yet?
 

Last time I had to deflood my car was about a year ago when a buddy woke up early and moved my car and killed it to get his truck out. If you pull your plugs, take them to a small mechanic shop and see if theyll blast them clean quick. Check the gap, should be listed for NGK's somewhere online. As long as the porcelain isnt cracked or burnt looking you should be able to re-use. Contact cleaner in your spark plug boots will help too, and while the plugs are out you can ram an old rag or whatever near the plug holes and give it a few cranks and watch all the crap get blown out, spray a litle bit of carb cleaner around the plug holes and clean afterwards. You can then do a quick shot of starter fluid in your plug holes and re-install your clean plugs.

One other thing is to have your battery on a charger at 2 or 10 amps while its just sitting there anyway. When you get everything buttoned up, depress the accelerator, put the key in the ignition and crank for about 3-5 seconds, then let completely off the accelerator and you should hear it firing and it'll start quick, ( oh and flip your charger to 50 amp while you crank ). I ran the same plugs for 70,000 miles. My cat isnt plugged at all, and I've always ran 5w20 whatever brand, with a bottle of lucas fuel injector cleaner about every 4 fill ups, cost like 3.99 usually. Autozone or schucks both sell carb cleaners and starter fluid and its dirt cheap and handy to keep a can in the car just in case. I've helped more road side people than myself, also the battery charger was 50 bucks 5 years ago from sears and I keep it in a little neat container in the trunk with a 30 foot cord too. You never know...

sorry about the massive paragraph, good luck

Thanks milk fist,
I haven't put it back together yet, left it overnight to make sure all fuel evaporated and plugs completely dried. Good idea about spraying some ether into the plug ports, that should give it a nice boost on start up. The plugs look brand new after I sprayed some ether on them, they weren't even 2 hours old when they got flooded, so I'm not worried about any permanent damage. The battery did pass a bench test at Autozone before the flooding, but was acting pretty finicky during the deflood process. Going to test it's voltage once I get it the car to start, then move on to testing the starter.
UPDATE:
still won't start, still sounds flooded after sitting with the plugs out, pump disconnected for over 18 hours. Can't hear a spark/feel a spark when I try to start it, but the coils, wires, and plugs produce spark when outside of the car. I can't believe that it's still flooded after sitting that long and cranking several times to push out the excess last night.

Dont give up
 

pull those plugs back out, crank with the plug wires just dangling, and get all that oil/gas mix out, you can blow carb cleaner in those plug holes and crank it with a rag down there and let it just blow out the spark plug holes. Have you checked your air filter?? Try pulling that PITA out for a bit, spray some start fluid on the filter too. Re-install those plugs, ( I Have NEVER pulled the fuel pump fuse ). You have to have that accelerator floored before you crank and leave it there, it'll sound like a gutless wonder but crank for 10 seconds. Let off the accelerator only after the IGNITION is off. let that starter cool down, and I highly recommend a battery charger to help the battery during deep cycles of cranking your motor. Once you start hearing a THUMPING compression sound while cranking let off the accelerator completely and just feather it until she starts. It's just a car, and I was clueless when I first bought it but sh!t happens. Good luck.

( oh and keep track of where those plug wires need to be.

*** REMINDER, when Im saying blow out all the gas/oil mix in the rotor housings, I mean doing that with the ACCELERATOR PEDAL DOWN COMPLETELY, drive by wire setup on the rx8 will KILL the fuel pump regardless if its been 18 hours or 2 seconds. with that pedal all the way down, insert key, crank 10-15 seconds. remove key, THEN let off accelerator.

That's basically the exact thing I've been doing for the past two days. The air filter is a brand new k&n, no vacuum leaks, I have spark all the way to all 4 plugs, battery has 12+ volts, starter is cranking, I can hear the pushing sound of the rotors through the plug holes, so compression is good. I can smell fuel when cranking, there are no problems with the fuel system.
So, I have spark, I have fuel, I have voltage everywhere...still no start. My only guess is that it's still too flooded to start up. I kept cranking throughout the night and this morning with the plugs out, I don't have another set of eyes to watch for fuel spraying out of the plug holes, but the smell of fuel is getting weaker every crank. Guess I just have to keep trying.

Found this great site about how to check for compression without taking it to the dealer:
http://www.aaroncake.net/RX-7/blown.htm