Has your Renesis flooded?
 

I'm somewhat surprised by the number of reported flooded engines. The Renesis is not as useable as it should be if it has to be run for 5 minutes whenever it is started: not user friendly. How many people have actually fallen foul of this problem?

Hasnt been an issue for me. And I have start/stopped the engine without the warm up a couple times by mistake, but still no flooding.

nope

No problem whatsoever.

actually I didn't personally, but I voted yes, because my dad flooded it when he moved spaces in our driveway.

Mine has kinda flooded, in that it doesn't start immediately on the first crank. However, I've found that it *WILL* start either on a longer first crank, or at the worst, on the second.

If this is really the flooding problem everyone is talking about, then I'm only marginally concerned about it.

Well it's 4:7 at the moment so 50% (approx) of you have had a problem. That's not good. Gosh, this is SO statistically valid. ;)

My office is 2 miles from my house (short trips every day morning and night) -- have had the car 2 1/2 months and have never once have had a flooding problem.

2 miles is enough to warm it up. A start move, start is what causes the problems. It is something that is inheirent with the Rotary, they say it can get worse with time. It has to do with gas getting stuck in the chamber with the spark plugs. There are other threads on this. I always let mine warm up, so no flooding problems, it

No, that's not flooding. If your engine is flooded it won't start at all without taking special measures - described in other threads, and in the manual as well IIRC.

I have *forgot* a couple of times to let mine warm up after moving it around, but have had no issues.

I've shut it off cold several times, no problems

Had mine towed to the dealer monday when it wouldn't start. Flooded...had all plugs replaced, etc...

I was backing out of the garage and it just cut out...kinda scary. I think I flooded it when attempting to crank after it died.

Every morning I take the car out of the garage, then I turn it off and start it again 2-3 minutes later when I'm ready to leave for work. That's been going on for the 5-6 weeks since I bought the car and it hasn't flooded once. I don't know why people think this is a problem.

so.. your motor wont start if you drive your car off with out letting warm up? hmm i was unaware of this! i just start the car up and go... so.. uhh im a bit concerned now

No, it's stopping the engine while it's still cold that can cause flooding.

Jaycee,

I don't think it's a problem, I KNOW it's a problem. I normally don't have my new car towed unless there is a problem.

I had been starting mine and backing out of the garage the same way for 8 weeks before the fateful morning.

I hope it doesn't happen to you, but don't discount others having problems just because you haven't experienced it.

People think it's a problem because their engines have flooded. If your engine flooded you, too, would think its a problem. Don't belittle those others just because it hasn't (yet) happened to you.

Re: Has your Renesis flooded?
 

Lesnman, don't be surprised that the problem appears to be so bad. In a forum like this the magnitude of problems tends to get magnified. Think of it like this: Would you expect someone to start a thread entitled "Hey, My Car Didn't Flood!?"

Of course not. So, if there are 1000's of participants in the forum and a few people report this, it looks like a big deal. Those who cars also flooded will jump on and say "Me too!" Those who's cars didn't flood aren't as interested in the thread, so they go to the next thread called "How to pickup chix in a '8."

For this reason, I'd say even the 8 percent currently showing in the poll is high. Everyone who had a flooded car who saw this poll will respond; they want to the world to know their woes. Of those who saw the poll without flooded cars, only some respond and other just passed it by. I wouldn't be a bit surprised in a scientific study if the number were closer to 2 percent.

This is a social phenonmenon that happens in any survey where the audience is self-selected. Those not interested in the topic don't respond, so they appear to be a smaller population than they really are.

it is interesting it doesn't happen all of the time. Rotary engines have always been prone to this problem. But not every engine, not every cold start/shut down incident, obviously. My dealer's tech guy, when pulling it off the truck (when it had been rolled off the truck) started it then killed it before he moved a few inches. After stating "it's just another car" with a smirk on his face. But it started right up. I was wondering what would happen as I watched. It was about 70 degrees that morning.

Re: Re: Has your Renesis flooded?
 

You point is valid. However, from a more objective point of view it's just as important to consider that in any other group of motorists, the incidence of this particular failure mode (unrecoverable flooding after cold-stop) probably approaches zero. This apparently is a well-known issue inherent in the design of the rotary, and it seems clear that it is beneficial to follow the recommended guidelines - No Cold Shutoffs - religiously.

For the uninitiated, I can understand that this might seem like a big usability issue. I don't think I would find it particularly inconvenient, but impressing the need on other drivers of the vehicle would probably be the sticking point. I might consider putting a label somewhere advising against cold shutdowns.

I'm quite sure this is a real problem. I've turned off ignition once when the engine was cold and... it flooded. I tried all the tricks mentioned here and elsewhere on the net and couldn't get it to start, even a week later.

Fortunately a local mechanic was able to remove and clean the plugs, and only then would my car start.

I've spoken to a few dealerships since. They're all familiar with it happening, two mentioned it happening on their own lots. This could be most common among the people who aren't active on the board?

What could Mazda do? I guess anything that would keep the engine running despite the drivers intention to shuit down the engine would be a fire risk? Perhaps a big panel light saying "Careful - Engine cold"?

Get a remote engine starter !

I have it intalled on my current car that is an automatic transmission and have been extremely happy with it for over a year now. Great for winter as you can have your car warmed up before you actually go out and drive off. It shuts off after 10 minutes automatically, which I think is enough to bring the engine to optimum operating temprature. I hardly ever crank up the engine manually now. I love this thing!

Don't know whether it can be installed in a manual transmission car (like u must leave the car in Neutral everytime). Does anyone one have it on a manual?

More importantly, has anyone tried to install one on their manual transmission RX-8?

does engine flooding happen more often in colder weathers? For example, has anyone in socal, az, or florida ever flooded their engines?

The fuel injected rotaries have always been prone to flooding. Not all cars, but all years. It does grow more frequent with mileage and age. Common with the second generation was injectors leaking down and flooding the chambers, especially on the *short drive*. Buildup in the injectors from poor quality gas would eventually cause them not to seal. When the motor was shut off, especially cold, the pressure on the line would push gas into the chambers, causing flooding if you tried to start the car within a few mins. Yes, the first cold snap would always bring 7's to the shop *on the hook*. One thing that always bothered me with the 3rd generation cars was the 250 rpm cranking speed. That's too slow and contributes, IMO to some of the flooding issues. Anway, keeping the car in a good state of tune, i.e. frequent change of spark plugs, not shutting it down cold and the occasional long trip are the best way to prevent flooding. It will remain to be seen how the 8 handles this issue when they get some miles on them.

Booyah!! I've just joined the ranks of the flooded. Dealership towed it in and are replacing the plugs for me, and I should have it back on the road by tomorrow. Got a 2003 Mazda6 as a loaner. (NOTE, this is the second trip to the shop for the car. I had to take it in a few weeks ago to have a bad ECU replaced).

Regarding the flooding:

I've had a couple of first gen '7's for over 10 years, so out of habit, warm up before taking it out regardless of the trip. With the '8, I didn't think it was as necessary. However, I was in a rush, was going on a long trip, and didn't let it warm up this morning. Stalled it pulling out of the driveway, and I managed to flood it.

Now, neither of my first gens would have flooded with this scenario. It simply a hit or miss thing, and I happend to have bad luck this morning or are '8s super-easy to flood?

The way I look at it, anybody that would bother to read/post to the forum is more car conscience then the average consumer. I doubt most people even read the manual, let alone follow it to the letter. If it floods that easily, shouldn't driveways be packed w/ flooded '8's these days?

um... whats flooding? How do you flood the car? sorry dont know stuff like that

:( Being a manly man I went out a couple of weeks ago and started up to go get some coffee. Given that I live on a hill, and equally importantly that I had not had any coffee I stalled the engine. Five minutes later, after burning up the battery cables I got it started. Idiosyncratic?? No, just cranky!!

so what long term effects does flooding your engine have? if you get the plugs replaced, should everything be okay afterwards?

Thanks to everyone who has voted: very interesting. All that really concerns me is that one day I will inevitably stall the engine when it's cooler than optimum and I won't be able to restart it. Not ideal but I can cope...

Add me to the list of flood victims. A short move in the driveway on Monday and she's been dead ever since. I followed the directions in the owners manual to no avail. A tow to the dealer tomorrow. Too bad

The warning in the "Quick Tips" is not that the engine will flood but that the plugs will foul. It sounds like the people who get a tow to the dealership end up with new or cleaned set of spark plugs, excluding the very small percentage who get new engines due to the front rotor compression issue (not related to short drives).

Can anyone explain to me how flooding the engine once can foul spark plugs to the point where the car will not start?

Got my car back last night. The dealership told me that another '8 had been brought in the same day w/ a flooded engine.

The dealership had me fill out a "Won't Start" questionairre that basically asked about my driving habits. (avg diststance per day, avg speed, avg warm-up time, what rpm do you shift at, etc).

The last couple of pages was filled out by the service center that looked like a bunch of readings from my engine. So it looks like Mazda is collecting information about all these flooded engine reports.

Sorry, fellow skeptics, but these reports are of a real flooding problem. How do I know it is not just skewed voting from disgruntled complainers? Because it happened to me with my new RX-8 and it has never happened with any other car I've ever owned or rented before.

Mine is a similar story to previous ones. I went to my driveway & jumped into the car last Thursday morning, a cold one. Nearly late for work, big meeting.

Big rush.

Started the car, no problem. Immediately saw from the fuel gauge that my wife had left the car from her previous nights' use with almost NO GAS in it. Knew that I'd really be late for work if we drove that car and had to stop for a fill-up. Made a (fateful) snap decision - switched off the car and took our other car to work (the Protege 5 which we haven't sold yet since getting the RX-8). Came back after work around 6PM, guess what - the RX-8 wouldn't start.

Tried it many times. Went to after-dinner event (again in other car) and came back around 10PM with a can of gas in hand, thinking "maybe it is really OUT of fuel"....Added the can of gas into the tank...No go.

Had it towed (free) to dealer around MIDNIGHT - what a pain it was searching for that towing eyelet in the cold, dark night. Wrecker piggy-backed it and then off-loaded it at the dealer's (locked) gate and I dropped off my keys in the drop box.

Weekend goes by. Dealer says motor was flooded, had to change spark plugs, oil (gas got in it) and oil filter.

No other car has shown me this sensitivity to being turned off cold. Anyway, the RX-8 starts & runs fine now. I understand from these posts how the back-pressure causes flooding of the combustion chambers. I will not stop her cold, ever again - PROMISE!

Dad was in a rush to go to town last nite, jumped in, didnt warm it up at all, backed out of the garage and stalled it, couldnt get it going again, tryed again this morning just got going with heaps of smoke!

I started up the 8 and moved into the garage the other night. The next morning it wouldn't start. I did the whole "flooded procedure" which involved:
1. pulling the plugs
2. cleaning and blowing them out
3. cranking the engine with the fuel pump disabled
4. replacing the plugs
5. attempting to restart the car.

Needless to say, this didn't work even after 3 tries. I called mazda and they didn't have any other suggestions except to bring it in and have them tinker with it. I thought about just replacing the plugs but there is no way I'm paying $50 for new plugs when the car is only 2 months old. Personally I think this flooding issue is rediculous! I have owned a 93 rx7 since 1998 and have never had a problem like this. This isn't just rotary related, this is a Renesis problem. Not only am I extremely disappointed with the power output of this engine, but now I find out it's even more quirky than the already quirky 13BREW. If this continues to be a problem I might have to consider getting rid of it. After all, I bought the car as a reliable daily driver. I realize that starting the car and shutting it down a minute later is a big no no when it comes to rotaries, but I am hearing from others that these cars are stalling and not starting afterwards because the engine get flooded. Again, I have experienced none of these problems with my last rotary, and I would start and shut that engine down all the time while it was still cold. I really hope madza comes up with a fix for this. Maybe they could adjust the fuel maps a little at startup so the car doesn't run so rich and fould the plugs out so easily. They need to come up with something. So far this poll is up to about 12 % of rx8 owners who have experienced engine flooding. That number is just too high for this car to be considered reliable.

I had this flooding problem many times with my 84 GSL-SE (Still have it). I thought 20 years of refinement would have taken care of it, but my car flooded last Sunday.

I took care of it the way I always have. I pull-started it with my SUV. The starter can't spin fast enough, but a 15mph pull in second gear is plenty fast to push excess fuel out of the chambers, dry the plugs, and it starts. Not NEARLY as bad as a tow to the dealer.

Good grief!
Am I buying a consumer product or a prototype?! This is surely the RX-8s Achilles Heel.

I would agree that, unfortunately, the RENESIS engine is the RX-8's Achilles Heel. Poor gas mileage, low power, prone to spark-plug fouling, hard to meet pollution standards, etc.

Yesterday, I read the Consumer Report's review of the WRX, RX-8, EVO, 350Z and Crossfire. Bottom line ... RX-8 is tops in every category except for the engine.

And the RENESIS got an award for motor of the year???

Yeah, it does seem to be a contradiction.

To be fair, the motor is quite a technological achievement. I can certainly understand why it won awards. Beyond that, the engine makes a number of other aspects of the RX-8 possible like a car, with a passenger cabin that large, having such amazing handling and braking ability with such a low price.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, issues like flooding, clean emissions and power make it hard to fully appreciate the elegance of the technology.

Well, OK, but remember that the jury is still out on these three issues (flooding because there are questions about the statistical validity of the sampling of the forum reports and polls; emissions because there have been published reports of very low emissions; and power because there is a by now very long discussion of off-the-line stats v. overall power characteristics as experienced by drivers in real-world conditions).

I don't understand what you mean by statistical validity of the polls dealing with the flooding issues. What is invalid? I don't see this issue popping up on any other forum. If it wasn't an issue then there wouldn't be so many people experiencing the problem. For those who daily drive their RX8s, this is a serious reliability issue.

As for emissions, I agree with you. I haven't seen an issue with it. I think mazda has this supposed issue under control.

I still feel the car is underpowered. You can give me all the peak HP numbers you want and it still won't make me feel any better when I take my car out for a spin. There is a reason mazda put turbos on the RX7. A two rotor needs a turbo to be competative with todays high performance V6 and V8 engines. I would honestly like to see mazda grow some balls and start using 3 rotors. But I'm sure I'm not the only one. :)

By "statistical validity" all I meant was (1) that we have reports of a problem from (at the moment) 15 people, as against an undetermined number of owners, so we don't know what percentage of the population of drivers are experiencing the problemand (2) there is no control to determine what people mean by "flooding". (Some people surely have experienced legitimate issues and have been inconvenienced but I remember at least one other person saying that by flooding he meant that starter turned over several times. This is to say that the forum and poll doesn't represent a controlled study.)

On the power matter, as I said , I was referring to people's experience in the real world of driving. You report wishing the car had more more power. I appreciate your report about your experience. Others are very happy with the power of their cars. I appreciate your reports as well.

Edit: Sorry for the typos: "don't" for "doesn't" and "I appreciate their reports as well. "

I disagree.

If flooding were an unproven statistical issue, then why would Mazda include a "short trip" warning in the QuickTips booklet that came with the car. After doing research I have discovered that "short trip" flooding has been a long-time issue with fuel-injected rotary engines. Also, once a rotary is flooded, it is hard, if not impossible to clear the fuel out of the combustion chambers without substantial measures. The warning and the anechdotal reports on the forum simply confirm that the issue is still with us.

On the emissions and power issues I would say that Canzoomer's work strongly implies that Mazda sacrificed substantial power and gas mileage to meet US pollution standards. One has to question a brand new high-tech engine that is so tight on its ability to meet emission standards that the only alternative to deal with a last minute standards-change is to seriously impact engine performance (about a 10% hit).

On the power issue, I may be wrong but I have not seen any evidence that the US production cars can meet the performance levels reported by the Car Mags running pre-production cars. The Consumer Reports tests (December 2003) on a production RX-8 were substantially off the mark (0-60 in 6.7 sec and 1/4 mile in 15.2) while the other cars came in around the Car Mag numbers.

Dear msrecant,

You make some good points.

But remember I didn't deny that flooding was an issue. I only made the point that we don't know how much of an issue it is statistically (i.e., how widespread the problem is).

On emissions, I wasn't commenting on the alleged trade-off for power but only on whether the car, as delivered, has high emissions.

And, as I said, people have reported different reactions to the car's acceleration.

Mine flooded recently and had to be towed in. However, when it happened on my trying to start the car after sitting in the garage for two days -- it seemed that the battery wasn't strong enough to turn the engine over. The dash dimmed out significantly almost to the point of not being visible. Finally it slowly began to spin the engine and it tried to start. However, after that it was flooded. The engine flooded starting technique in the manual was of no help. The car stayed at the dealer for 3 days. Got it back and they said it was flooded. I asked about the battery which on previous complaint tested at 320 CCA out of 400 CCA rated. They said this time it was in the 300-325 CCA range and isn't low enough for Mazda to replace it.

I believe on this instance that the battery somehow couldn't spin the engine fast enough at initial start and the injection system dumped in too much fuel for the slow turning.

I plan to contact Mazda and plead for a new battery that checks out somewhere reasonably close to what it's rated for.

Flooded today
 

Yesterday, I backed my RX8 into the driveway and later drove it back into the garage. It started OK going into the garage but would not start this morning. I was not aware of the potential to flood this easily. I was towed and the dealer sprayed starter fluid to get it started. I'll try to avoid the quick drives and rev to 4000 when turning off. Hope this solves this problem.

Re: Flooded today
 

General question to the forum .....

Is this an OK way to deal with Rotary flooding? Is there a possibility that it will damage the engine if done by a non-mechanic type person?

Should I (we all) get a can of starter fluid, just in case?

Had my car taken to the dealer today. Washed and waxed the car Sunday, pulled into the garage and today it wouldn't start. Talked to service rep and I should have it back tomorrow. He made it sound like there's a reprograming fix for the flooding problem. I'll try to clarify the fix tomorrow. Based on some of the input off this board, think I'll try for a free oil change, after all I've got 1300 miles on the car. I traded in a 93 RX7 and it never flooded.