Why 4 fuel injectors vs 6 on the '09's?
01-03-2009, 02:53 PM
#26
i wonder if fuel pressures are the same RG.? Maybe they lowered it?
Bigger injectors would also have less dead time wouldnt they? They probably changed placement too?
less staged injectors= easier to tune?
Bigger injectors also will help keep the intake charge cooler?
old way --more of the charge volume was coming in on one side of the rotor ? This way it is more balanced?
OD
Bigger injectors would also have less dead time wouldnt they? They probably changed placement too?
less staged injectors= easier to tune?
Bigger injectors also will help keep the intake charge cooler?
old way --more of the charge volume was coming in on one side of the rotor ? This way it is more balanced?
OD
01-03-2009, 04:20 PM
#27
Super Moderator
It's still a 6 port motor but with improved injectors. The old ones were good. These are better.
Ash is correct about the part numbers: 13-250 is almost every injector part number Mazda has ever sold. The N3R, which precedes it, represents the new RX8engine and they can use whatever digits are required to further identify a part. Chassis and body related parts will now tend to be FF instead of FE but that gets even more complicated
Paul.
Ash is correct about the part numbers: 13-250 is almost every injector part number Mazda has ever sold. The N3R, which precedes it, represents the new RX8engine and they can use whatever digits are required to further identify a part. Chassis and body related parts will now tend to be FF instead of FE but that gets even more complicated
Paul.
,I hope all those years as a MPM I retained something!,
BTW, FF should be reserved for the new RX, if we ever see one.
I am still waiting on my Latest EPC (Parts Catalog) to confirm more info..GGrr
My guy here is taking too long to hand it over!
01-03-2009, 05:02 PM
#29
Super Moderator
You have to consider is that, for this kind of cars (sport compacts) it is usually related to a mix of what you say: production costs vs efficiency.
The strange thing is that they made some significant improvements for an engine that will be dumped after this car.
I wonder which of the implemented technologies will be adopted by the 16x.
The strange thing is that they made some significant improvements for an engine that will be dumped after this car.
I wonder which of the implemented technologies will be adopted by the 16x.
What is now in the latest 13B will be in the new 16X or C or whatever letter they put there that is IF we see a new rotary. I have my doubts now because of the so called world financial melt down.
Mazda are to be applauded for upgrading the RENESIS, what annoys me is why they let the thing out in the first place (2003) with poor apex seal lubrication after all they have been developing this engine for 40 bloody years...
Maybe Fords penny pinching, but look at the end result and the cost to Mazda with all the rebuilds...the 1970's all over again...was coolant entry then..
helped to almost kill Mazda.
01-03-2009, 06:13 PM
#30
The Professor
Why is it strange, this is what Mazda does... continually improves.
What is now in the latest 13B will be in the new 16X or C or whatever letter they put there that is IF we see a new rotary. I have my doubts now because of the so called world financial melt down.
Mazda are to be applauded for upgrading the RENESIS, what annoys me is why they let the thing out in the first place (2003) with poor apex seal lubrication after all they have been developing this engine for 40 bloody years...
Maybe Fords penny pinching, but look at the end result and the cost to Mazda with all the rebuilds...the 1970's all over again...was coolant entry then..
helped to almost kill Mazda.
What is now in the latest 13B will be in the new 16X or C or whatever letter they put there that is IF we see a new rotary. I have my doubts now because of the so called world financial melt down.
Mazda are to be applauded for upgrading the RENESIS, what annoys me is why they let the thing out in the first place (2003) with poor apex seal lubrication after all they have been developing this engine for 40 bloody years...
Maybe Fords penny pinching, but look at the end result and the cost to Mazda with all the rebuilds...the 1970's all over again...was coolant entry then..
helped to almost kill Mazda.
01-03-2009, 07:38 PM
#32
Nope. Same pump. Same pressures.
No. Larger injectors have longer latencies.
The RX-8 injectors are already very, very fast. A couple more nanoseconds isn't gonna hurt anyone.
No. They just deleted the P2s.
Not really. It is no more difficult to tune 12 injectors than 4. Its only the mind of the tuner that is hard(end).
Why and how? Why would you even want that?
I don't even understand this question.
No. Larger injectors have longer latencies.
The RX-8 injectors are already very, very fast. A couple more nanoseconds isn't gonna hurt anyone.
No. They just deleted the P2s.
Not really. It is no more difficult to tune 12 injectors than 4. Its only the mind of the tuner that is hard(end).
Why and how? Why would you even want that?
I don't even understand this question.
01-03-2009, 09:47 PM
#33
your answers make sense and thanks for the facts there on the fuel pressures etc.
old style --didnt we have fuel mix flow through 2 ports on one side of the rotary and one on the other side? probably wont make a lot of difference.
i wonder if we will have less blow by with the new engine?
OD
old style --didnt we have fuel mix flow through 2 ports on one side of the rotary and one on the other side? probably wont make a lot of difference.
i wonder if we will have less blow by with the new engine?
OD
01-03-2009, 10:37 PM
#34
On the old motor and the new, fuel is introduced through the same two ports.
Primary fuel comes in through the ports on the center iron and secondary fuel comes in through the end irons.
We have substantial blow-by? Why would it be less on this motor?
01-04-2009, 09:51 AM
#35
i am all confused MM. I am much more of a visual person than a learn by narrative. For some reason i was thinking injectors on the old style was providing to 3 ports instead of 2 --i know better. It just escaped me while I was brainstorming possible reasons for the change.
You know we have blow by--define substantial? Dont know if it is any less --just wondering if they changed something to further address this.
OD
You know we have blow by--define substantial? Dont know if it is any less --just wondering if they changed something to further address this.
OD
01-04-2009, 03:43 PM
#37
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Something not covered in this thread might be that the going from 6 to 4 injectors may be a cost cutting measure.
There are certainly other costs cuts on the 09+ models (fake gauges missing for example), and Mazda has had a history of revisions for cost cutting on the later series of a model (for example all the cheap *** parts on the Series 5 RX-7 compared to the Series 4 models- yeah there were improvements- but pure and simple cost cuts too).
There are certainly other costs cuts on the 09+ models (fake gauges missing for example), and Mazda has had a history of revisions for cost cutting on the later series of a model (for example all the cheap *** parts on the Series 5 RX-7 compared to the Series 4 models- yeah there were improvements- but pure and simple cost cuts too).
01-04-2009, 05:09 PM
#38
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Something not covered in this thread might be that the going from 6 to 4 injectors may be a cost cutting measure.
There are certainly other costs cuts on the 09+ models (fake gauges missing for example), and Mazda has had a history of revisions for cost cutting on the later series of a model (for example all the cheap *** parts on the Series 5 RX-7 compared to the Series 4 models- yeah there were improvements- but pure and simple cost cuts too).
There are certainly other costs cuts on the 09+ models (fake gauges missing for example), and Mazda has had a history of revisions for cost cutting on the later series of a model (for example all the cheap *** parts on the Series 5 RX-7 compared to the Series 4 models- yeah there were improvements- but pure and simple cost cuts too).
01-04-2009, 07:29 PM
#41
Super Moderator
Something not covered in this thread might be that the going from 6 to 4 injectors may be a cost cutting measure.
There are certainly other costs cuts on the 09+ models (fake gauges missing for example), and Mazda has had a history of revisions for cost cutting on the later series of a model (for example all the cheap *** parts on the Series 5 RX-7 compared to the Series 4 models- yeah there were improvements- but pure and simple cost cuts too).
There are certainly other costs cuts on the 09+ models (fake gauges missing for example), and Mazda has had a history of revisions for cost cutting on the later series of a model (for example all the cheap *** parts on the Series 5 RX-7 compared to the Series 4 models- yeah there were improvements- but pure and simple cost cuts too).
They added a LED temperature indicator in the Tacho (so that replaced the fake oil gauge).
I really don't see any cost cutting moves on the series II, in fact there are quite a number of changes that have addressed reliability/quality issue on Series I.
All I see are improvements.
01-04-2009, 07:33 PM
#42
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Mazda have actually changed a host of things, including two Electric MOPs.
They added a LED temperature indicator in the Tacho (so that replaced the fake oil gauge).
I really don't see any cost cutting moves on the series II, in fact there are quite a number of changes that have addressed reliability/quality issue on Series I.
All I see are improvements.
They added a LED temperature indicator in the Tacho (so that replaced the fake oil gauge).
I really don't see any cost cutting moves on the series II, in fact there are quite a number of changes that have addressed reliability/quality issue on Series I.
All I see are improvements.
01-04-2009, 09:14 PM
#43
Go Texas Longhorns!
Another reason for 6 vs. 4 injectors could also have been the fact that Mazda seemed to use alot of "off the shelf" parts for the original RX8's (such as the Cat, tranny, diff etc...) likely for cost cutting reasons. Maybe it took six injectors originally to do the job as they didn't have four on hand that could push the fuel necessary.
Reality is, our car was developed on a shoe string budget, which likely did lead to some of the more common reliability issues. Maybe with the new revised Rotary Mazda got to spend some money in some key areas such as injectors, oil metering, cat? etc... to get some more custom rotary specific parts.
Reality is, our car was developed on a shoe string budget, which likely did lead to some of the more common reliability issues. Maybe with the new revised Rotary Mazda got to spend some money in some key areas such as injectors, oil metering, cat? etc... to get some more custom rotary specific parts.
01-04-2009, 10:47 PM
#44
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Another reason for 6 vs. 4 injectors could also have been the fact that Mazda seemed to use alot of "off the shelf" parts for the original RX8's (such as the Cat, tranny, diff etc...) likely for cost cutting reasons. Maybe it took six injectors originally to do the job as they didn't have four on hand that could push the fuel necessary.
Reality is, our car was developed on a shoe string budget, which likely did lead to some of the more common reliability issues. Maybe with the new revised Rotary Mazda got to spend some money in some key areas such as injectors, oil metering, cat? etc... to get some more custom rotary specific parts.
Reality is, our car was developed on a shoe string budget, which likely did lead to some of the more common reliability issues. Maybe with the new revised Rotary Mazda got to spend some money in some key areas such as injectors, oil metering, cat? etc... to get some more custom rotary specific parts.
01-04-2009, 11:42 PM
#45
Another reason for 6 vs. 4 injectors could also have been the fact that Mazda seemed to use alot of "off the shelf" parts for the original RX8's (such as the Cat, tranny, diff etc...) likely for cost cutting reasons. Maybe it took six injectors originally to do the job as they didn't have four on hand that could push the fuel necessary.
Reality is, our car was developed on a shoe string budget, which likely did lead to some of the more common reliability issues. Maybe with the new revised Rotary Mazda got to spend some money in some key areas such as injectors, oil metering, cat? etc... to get some more custom rotary specific parts.
Reality is, our car was developed on a shoe string budget, which likely did lead to some of the more common reliability issues. Maybe with the new revised Rotary Mazda got to spend some money in some key areas such as injectors, oil metering, cat? etc... to get some more custom rotary specific parts.
beers
01-05-2009, 12:49 PM
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4 injectors = $400
6 injectors = $600
If you can with software and hardware/gearing changes compensate to get near power/performance numbers and save $200... that is pretty sizable.
Originally Posted by ash8
Mazda have actually changed a host of things, including two Electric MOPs.
They added a LED temperature indicator in the Tacho (so that replaced the fake oil gauge).
I really don't see any cost cutting moves on the series II, in fact there are quite a number of changes that have addressed reliability/quality issue on Series I.
All I see are improvements.
They added a LED temperature indicator in the Tacho (so that replaced the fake oil gauge).
I really don't see any cost cutting moves on the series II, in fact there are quite a number of changes that have addressed reliability/quality issue on Series I.
All I see are improvements.
Not saying Mazda didn't make improvements... don't get me wrong. Hell, even the 06-08 model had improvements over the 03-05. I would expect improvements, but they did some cost cutting too.
And you can't say those lame *** infiniti G35 inspired tail lights are an improvement.
01-05-2009, 01:10 PM
#48
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You have to consider is that, for this kind of cars (sport compacts) it is usually related to a mix of what you say: production costs vs efficiency.
The strange thing is that they made some significant improvements for an engine that will be dumped after this car.
I wonder which of the implemented technologies will be adopted by the 16x.
The strange thing is that they made some significant improvements for an engine that will be dumped after this car.
I wonder which of the implemented technologies will be adopted by the 16x.
01-05-2009, 01:21 PM
#49
Super Moderator
Just guessing here, but figuring an injector costs $100 on average (and yes I know there are volume discounts that might even get it to half that price- but just look at the numbers).
4 injectors = $400
6 injectors = $600
If you can with software and hardware/gearing changes compensate to get near power/performance numbers and save $200... that is pretty sizable.
Two hundred per car is considerable savings, and more than makes up for adding another $100 for an additional MOP (and lets face it... other changes such as bigger oil pan and slightly bigger oil coolers are not real cost additions since they are replacing existing parts)- toss in the generic Mazda steering wheel to save another $200 instead of the model specific wheel.
Not saying Mazda didn't make improvements... don't get me wrong. Hell, even the 06-08 model had improvements over the 03-05. I would expect improvements, but they did some cost cutting too.
And you can't say those lame *** infiniti G35 inspired tail lights are an improvement.
4 injectors = $400
6 injectors = $600
If you can with software and hardware/gearing changes compensate to get near power/performance numbers and save $200... that is pretty sizable.
Two hundred per car is considerable savings, and more than makes up for adding another $100 for an additional MOP (and lets face it... other changes such as bigger oil pan and slightly bigger oil coolers are not real cost additions since they are replacing existing parts)- toss in the generic Mazda steering wheel to save another $200 instead of the model specific wheel.
Not saying Mazda didn't make improvements... don't get me wrong. Hell, even the 06-08 model had improvements over the 03-05. I would expect improvements, but they did some cost cutting too.
And you can't say those lame *** infiniti G35 inspired tail lights are an improvement.
What about the extra 2 oil nozzles?
LED tail lamps cost more to produce, whatever you think of them.
Seats are all leather wrapped, instead of just the face.
Side LED Indicators now, where there wasn't any before.
EMOP's are very expensive, that is why Mazda have never used them before, because of the cost, that is well known.
01-05-2009, 04:15 PM
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Have you seen an oil dribbler??? There was probably more cost in the machine work to the housing than the actual dribbler itself. You could use a sprinkler head and have more engineering and cost that the standard oil nozzle.
But that is besides the point. I am not saying that everything on the S2 is cheaper. There are definite improvements. I am merely suggesting that on of the possible reasons that there are not 6 injectors is cost. As a cost cutting measure there are only 4.
Until someone aftermarket builds up a motor and starts playing and see's if 3 per rotor is better than 2 per rotor, we will never know because everything a manufacture does is a compromise between the bean counters and engineers.
US models had the LED rear side markers for the whole production so far.
Which again points to cost... say they decided that EMOP's are better and want to use them, but they can't exceed a price point... can't spend the money to use the 6... then you use 4 and make due and cover it up with software and gearing.
<edit> have we seen consistent dyno runs yet on the S2? Is there any power increase? I personally suspect their will be a loss, but then I have not seen dyno runs on the updated motor yet <end edit>
But that is besides the point. I am not saying that everything on the S2 is cheaper. There are definite improvements. I am merely suggesting that on of the possible reasons that there are not 6 injectors is cost. As a cost cutting measure there are only 4.
Until someone aftermarket builds up a motor and starts playing and see's if 3 per rotor is better than 2 per rotor, we will never know because everything a manufacture does is a compromise between the bean counters and engineers.
Side LED Indicators now, where there wasn't any before.
EMOP's are very expensive, that is why Mazda have never used them before, because of the cost, that is well known.
<edit> have we seen consistent dyno runs yet on the S2? Is there any power increase? I personally suspect their will be a loss, but then I have not seen dyno runs on the updated motor yet <end edit>
Last edited by Icemark; 01-05-2009 at 04:19 PM.