Any lab worth their salt will run calibration sample tests of their own to verify their own machines. If they don't they will have a lot to lose in the way of business. So if your sending your samples to unreliable lab this would be a problem. It's same for blood work done at the hospitals calibrating and recalibrating is the nature of the beast for all labs. So if your sending fresh samples in you will only be paying for their own calibrating and verifying process.

Well if I send in a clean sample and and the report verifies its clean then I would say the usual results are pretty accurate. We will see.

blackstone has been around a while---they stand to lose A LOT if they dont do a good job.
OD

Theres more to it then that...

I run a predicitive maintenance program at work where we do a lot of oil sampling of machinery. In order to get a decently repeatable sample, you need to drain out a good amount of oil so you get a sample from the actual fluid circulating in the system and not just whats laying in the bottom of the oil resevoir.

In i'd say in a majority of the DIY automotive samples, you see completely piss poor trends because of poor sample taking methods. I've seen many people do "long term oil tests" by just tapping off enough oil to fill the sample jar every couple thousand miles and start proclaiming to the world there sample results actually have and use...

So how would you suggest taking a sample from an RX8? I take mine mid stream during the drain.

i do the same after oil has warmed up good.
OD

Yeah I always drain my oil hot/warm.

Here is some food for thought:
ZDDP also alters bearing and journal surface characteristics to prevent metal to metal contact. Under extereme conditions like a high perfromance motor, ZDDP reduces the tendancy of parts to scuff or gall under heavy loads.

From this website:
http://www.eastwood.com/underhood-en...e-4-fl-oz.html

So do Zinc or Moly go directly to this issue (either buying oil that hasn't had it reduced or an additive)? Ie, are our bearings bearing the brunt of protecting the cats?

Also, lubricant experts: would i learn anything by having Blackstone run MMO? Maybe compared to FP Plus and Amsoil Saber Pro. Anyone want to go in 1/3 on a comparo?

This makes complete sense for stationary machinery, but it would seem that in an automobile (particularly one that regularly gets subjected to elevated braking and cornering forces) the oil would be mixed a bit better, and one could easily overcome any issues in this regard by waiting a few seconds after removing the drain plug before taking the sample, as others have noted. Cleaning around the drain plug before removing is also a good idea, I'm sure.

I guess, before taking the sample, in addition to getting your oil nice & hot, one should find a nice slalom somewhere. :)

OK, to put things into more perspective when I worked at a pretty well known company's oil R&D labs for engine oils they had a testing program for employees cars where they would....

- drain the oil
- run a flushing oil through the system (typically you only drain about 80% of the oil on most cars and then you still want to clean out any sludge in the valve train and oil passeges)
- drain it again
- drop the oil pan and clean out any sludge
- fill with the new test oil
... depending on the routine, a sampling port might also be installed on an oil cooler line if your car had one

...and then have a sample size of 20-50 cars...

scientific methods are a lot of work:)
After a lot of thought from my old tired brain--i have come to realize that why the rotary shears oil so much is because of the rotor bearing loads on the e shaft and the rotor gear load on the stationary gears?
An arguement for a oil with pressure additives like transmission oils maybe could be made?
OD

But why so much worry over the shearing? Rotor bearing failure is basically never the failure mode of a rotary engine. Most of the time the e-shaft can be reused during a rebuild. Stationary gear failure is sometimes the failure mode, but not from lubrication failures, usually from becoming not stationary.

Yep, which is why I recommended that Millers oil design specifically for high shear loads - their rep is looking into whether it would be commercialy viable to produce a 5w-40 version for us rotary owners.

In case you missed it:

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/5w30-oil-dont-cut-engine-bearing-pics-58k-s1-rx-8-england-183355/

While it's true that the prevailing wisdom, that Renesis failures are mostly due to carbon build up and/or lack of lubrication of the seals, still holds (at least best I can tell, LOL), clearly there is something going on with Renesis bearing wear that has not been present in older rotaries. So, assuming premixing and proper maintenance solves the seal lubrication & carbon issues, we'd like to know that the bearings will not wear out prematurely.

Thanks, saved me from a much longer and less concise post.

:yelrotflm:yelrotflm:yelrotflm

you know i am getting a lot more oil in my catch can now that my temps are up.
hmmmmmm.
OD

Could it also have to do with more oil pressure? Right now when I pull the intake hose off, I do not see any residue in there. That was making me think i wouldn't benefit from a catch can. Am I wrong? Do you think when I do the Oil Pressure Mod i will get more oil in the intake?

Hmmmmmm.... I will be installing my OP kit and a catch can on the same day so we will see.

wait......so should i warm up the car, or just drive it?

confused on that part. and a small why wouldn't hurt too :P

right now i'm thinking it gets gas in the oil?

Well the common belief is that idling your car to full warm before driving away increases fuel content in the oil and dilutes it. But I stopped doing that during my last OCI and my fuel content increased in the fuel so..................

Now I am back to letting it warm up completely before I go anywhere so we will see in my next UOA.

cool thank you! i'll let it idle for now, just cause i see rotaries as glass cannons. i'll idle for warmth until your next uoa and then we will see :)
thanks!

no way does the bypass have any affect on increased oil catch can output. I think what is happening is because i am getting my oil temp hotter the engine is boiling off all the crap.
i had a lot of crap! Less being produced right now.
would you believe over a pint of muddy.creamy looking crap came out?
OD

and that was after you cleaned out the pan?

You talked about using diesel oil :confused: did you ever switch? could that be what its from? :dunno:

I use to use 5w-40 non-synthetci oil and never had any start up issues. But now that I use Mobil 1 0w-40 synthetic oil in the winter my start ups take a lill longer. Hope that will go a way when it starts getting hot.

no diesel oil has nothing to do with it. not getting the oil up to temps and the unusual cold here in the recent past was what caused this. since i cleaned the catch and have kept my temps up--i am getting much less.
OD

I have been noticing the white froth at the top of the dipstick lately. I also noticed that even when it was warm yesterday (mid 70's) my oil temps were the same (even after doing some "testing") at cruising speeds. I wish summer would come.

Interesting read.

http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182855-1.html

Indeed. And the third professional to say that oil is oil. And this is a guy who tests oils that people's lives depend on. Think anybody will listen? :dunno:

So get the viscosity right, which I think we've seen clear evidence makes a big difference, and don't worry so much about brand and type.

Yeah, I have read that a lot lately. But, I have seen how different (not bad, just different) oils can be when tested.

the most impressive uoa i've found was for a gti i think, redline 10w40, 7.5k mile interval before change, and they said it could still go a bit more

and i've seen wally mart oil uoas at 3k, with black stone suggesting changing earlier or new oil

Here is an interesting quote from the article by Fenton:

Bearing wear will sometimes throw us. It's very, very slow. Sometimes when an engine is opened up the mechanic will say, 'We've got some badly worn bearings in here,' and yet the oil analysis didn't show a thing because it's so gradual that we never saw a break in the profile.

Yeah I read that. Our bearings are copper right?

ding, ding! we have a winner

Okay so who wants to create a spreadsheet for me :).

I have no problem doing it. I am a data freak for work anyway, and this kind of stuff really interests me :)


(I'll deny it, but I heard someone in my head once tell me how to set up a really involved test to benchmark the effect of every type of oil, and a different voice told me that I need a million or so in funding to do it.)

Edit:
So is a starter set of data or a bunch of sheets hanging around out there that I can use? And do you only get them as paper or images, vs do you get them in digital form any way (other than digital picture). I can use software to get most of what I need without having to retype everything from sheets, but if each sheet is in a PDF or word document where it already recognizes the text and numbers, that would be best.

Let me know if you need me email address.

OD (old fart :)) gets them in paper format I believe but I get them emailed to me as a .PDF and I have a couple (withe personal info removed of course) that are in .PDF format as well that I could email you.

Sounds good. I PMed you my email. I can use yours as a basis to start it up.

If anyone does send any that have personal info, I will strip it off and refer only by their 8club ID. I handle alot of cases on the side dealing with identity theft, so I am aware of any risk there, and won't store anything personal anywhere.

Alright, I have the spreadsheet started, although while building it, I think I need to add more points than what are provided by the UOA sheets, so if you send a sheet to me, also send:

- Engine mileage at the change (chassis mileage if you are on your first engine, not chassis mileage if you are on your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 27th, or 19,567,012th.)
- Year of 8 (for series, flash, other changes)
- Transmission (AT / MT)
- Primary Climate (Warm Dry, Cold Dry, Warm Wet, Dry Wet)
- Primary Octane used
- Premix Type
- Premix Volume
- Oil burn rate (any rate calculation you want is fine, though please specify how you arrived at that rate, I will convert to quarts per 1,000miles)

...and if you know them: (each point for the oil being analyzed, not lifetime)
- Typical Cold Oil Pressure
- Typical Hot Oil Pressure
- Typical Hot Oil Temp
- Typical Hot Water Temp


I see these additional points as potentially affecting how much engine wear someone has. Disagree with me? Ok. Send the information anyway and we will let the data/trend prove me wrong. If there is something you think might play a part in the wear and UOA and you think I should add it, just let me know.

If you are wrong, then the data will say so, if you are right, then the data will say so.

What I don't want is for this to get a few years down the road and we are seeing a clear trend or confusing data, and someone says: "I bet <this> is the issue, can we track that?"

It's better to include the data than think it's not worth it.


Edit:
Added climate
I'd add driving behavior, but that is so subjective and opinion / perspective based that it isn't 'data points' to track.

I also don't want to add mod lists or anything. If your mod should change something here, then it will show up here. Measure it, don't just tell me "I got the latest chrome plated schnozzlesquirter for my thingamabob, so I should be seeing my coolant retaining bolt drop several degrees below my headlight amoeba spawn count." I can't track that.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to first see about getting Blackstone's data. Someone could perhaps volunteer to co-author a piece with them that would highlight their services and provide very useful information to the RX-8 community, or any other car community. Wonder if they've ever done or thought about this?

I thought about that. I'm guessing that it would a cost$ outlay to get their data. I can give it a shot.

What other UOA companies are out there that people use?

Oil change interval is going to be WAY more important than what brand. It'll take a lot less data to prove that, so we should see that a lot earlier than comparing types.

Also, has Blackstone's results ever been in question? Just thinking it might be good to send a sample or two to a different lab and compare. All data is for nothing if the methods are not correct.

Excellent point.

I think I might do that on my next change. Haven't had any oil analyzed yet, so might be interesting.

Yeah I actually read some things that did question some of the UOA's but I never found any data questioning black stones results. I would like to take sample and split it up between two companies and see what the results are. Anyone know of another company reasonably priced beside Blackstone?

I spoke to a few people in the industry who deal with oil analysis for private sectory and the miltary. They suggested blackstone mainly for the cost vs. benefit.

Blackstone's reports are very well laid out and easy to read. Also the fact that they provide a paragraph of comments for the sample also is a great feature I've not seen anywhere else.

Change interval is something you can accomplish with a sample taken at 3,000 miles or so with a TBN to detect how much of the additive package is left.

And yet then they speak about the Mobil 1 problem they saw....
So, obviously, oil ain't oil.

HA! :evil_laug Right. So that proves synthetic sucks! Right? Right? :lol2:

:lol:

Yeah I am just curious what the results would be of the same sample sent to two different places.