Throttle Body By-Pass Value discussion
 

Stupid mod IMO. I mean it can't hurt (if done right) really but I doubt it will result in any usable WHP. But if you are under warranty then it is just another reason for them to hassle you.

it is stupid i ran it for a while its just a waste and more likely you will end up leaking coolant on your ignition coils

Lets be honest there isn't much of anything that results in "usable" horse power on the 8 that doesn't involve FI or porting the engine.

for the money spent i think this is the best bang for your buck hp mod actually

tb bypass 1 hp = ~$5???

midpipe 10hp = ~$150+???

turbo 100hp= ~$5,000+???

lol

^ :dunno: Still seems like a dumb mod to me and I am one to tinker just for the hell of it :lol:

I actually agree with 9krpmrx8.
This mod was incorporated based on theory with no real proven data.
You want to impress me... get a before and after reading of the IAT and a thermocouple placed after the TB to illustrate the temp difference.

As hot as the engine bay gets and the resulting intake manifold heat sink/soak that occurs you could easily argue that it's not necessary for anyone not living at the North or South Poles too .... :Eyecrazy:

Mariocoastie is right, the heater is to prevent the formation of ice on the throttle body, you have in effect a very high ratio venturi when the throttle is shut, which gives a huge local temperature drop over the butterfly due to the airspeed - which means the moisture in the air freezes over the throttle and causes inconsistant throttle response, bogging down when setting off, and fluctuating idles (even stalling if it gets too bad).
This can happen even with the engine bay being hot and the resultant heatsoak, even in warm weather, it's dependent on throttle position, ambient moisture and intake air temperature more than anything else, sometimes you get away with it, sometimes not.

Hell, I've got a video somewhere of my daily driver in the winter, with the same thing happening across the throttle plate (no heater circuit on it, one of the very early mass produced fuel injection cars) - it builds up about 1/8" of ice within 15 seconds or so and stalls the engine - it is accelerated on my car compared to an '8 as the throttle body is smaller so the air velocity is quite high.

:EDIT: I originally posted something in an attempt to further educate on why this is a bad idea, but whats the point of trying to help someone who is going to do what they have stuck in their head already... back to lurking I go.

or you could just leave it as originally supplied by the factory since it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever


edit: this is a sincere message to anyone new to the RX8 or cars in general and trips across this thread. The difference between the theoretical ideal and reality can be vaster than some most people realize


.

1) I don't know how I feel about the new avatar, it just doesn't seem right to not have the paper bag on, LOL

2) Excellent point, this mod is a waste. Can we just lock this damn useless thread already?

Loud noises

me2

Umm.. To all those who do not think this mod is a benefit.

It works. The whole TB is so much cooler. Which means cooler air flow into the combustion chamber.

It is did not work, Why did all the RX8 teams in GT bypass the TB?

However, Sephitrask is correct. I would not recommend it to anyone in a cold climate.

You could be fine in some states, but other like Minnesota where there is so much moisture in the air...

I miss that brown paper bag. He has good points most of the time but I do not always agree with him.

I agree with Team, possibly for not the reason, but after doing my own research, and talking with some pretty knowledgeable folks I decided to not do this mod.

Those Mazda engineers are some pretty smart dudes. Consider the impact to the ECU calculations if remove something meant to normalize conditions. If you are okay with the notion that your smarter than Mazda then knock yourself out.

are you so in need of attention that you keep having to make pointless repetitive bump posting attempts all over the forum to receive it?

yup, felt the need to post just so you know my avatar still applies.

This. I smell a troll...

that had so much to do with a throttle body bypass...... mind - blown

especially considering that WATER runs thru the TB

If I have offended any one here...Indeed "My Bad". I have erased a few posts that are in my opinion are not conducive to this site.I mistakenly posted the remark about the research in the wrong place again "MY Bad". I will remove this post also and replant it in the proper thread sorry. Life is a learning curve. My heart is in the right place.

:beerchug:

Did this mod when I replaced my coolant lines. Didn't notice anything, except how nice it is to remove the tb/UIM without messing with coolant lines...

I done this mod to every project I have done.

You have to think about the real purpose on having coolant run through the TB. Like said above, to prevent freezing. There is no other reason for it. Yes the ecu is tuned for it but only for cold starts. After it hits a certain temp, the ecu will no longer depend on it.

You will indeed benefit from this mod. Your TB is at least 140 fully warm all the time. No matter the temp out side, the TB will always be hotter then the air coming in.

Now with basic physics, running cool air through a hot 2-3 inch section of pipe will indeed raise the end temp. No need for proof as this is common sense.

Drive at a steady 3k with out the mod, pull over and feel the TB. you will see the fing thing is hot. Drive at a steady 3k with the mod, you will see the TB is cool to the touch.

No need to explain how this will benefit you and raise your MPGs. Colder, denser air even if it is 10 degrees is good enough for me to do this FREE mod. Even if it only gives me .00001 HP it is still better then nothing. I never liked the idea of heating up the TB when your trying to get performance.

Its like saying, here is a cig while you run. Yummm nnooo.

Cool to the touch? Nothing metal on the engine is cool to the touch at full operating temp. I have measured the temps of various things under the hood after a drive and everything is close to 200F, except the exhaust obviously. I don't have this retarded mod but I don't have the coolant going to the TB because it is instead going through my turbo.

Let me bust out the Flir and disprove your theory when I get home.

Sure go for it but you are turboed so its going to be hot no matter what :rollingla

I did this to a KL Mazda motor and yes, a 100% fact my entire intake mani was cold to the touch after driving in 60 degrees temps at 55mph for 15 min. This was N/A at the time.

This is not a "I Think" this is what happened from using this mod.

What does me being turbo have to do with anything? My intake temps under normal driving conditions are basically the same as NA. You are wrong.

Having done this mod myself I feel like I could give a reasonable response to all this debate.

There are a few "benefits" of this mod, though nothing that can really be viewed as too significant do deem this mod "amazing"

Additionally, there are also drawbacks that must be taken into heavy consideration depending on your geographic location. Lets go over the few things that initially come to mind about this mod..

1) Temperature:
"OMG its so much cooler I got like 5-vtec-whp from it yo"
First of all, just stop. No you didnt get any hp from this. Yes your throttle body will be slightly cooler, but it wont make much of any difference since the air passes through the throttle body so quickly that it doesn't really have time to affect the intake temperature. Not to mention I am rather sure the LIM heats up the air way more than the throttle body supposedly does. There is a very dangerous risk associated with this mod however; in cold/winter climates you risk "icing" the throttle plate and throttle body. Not something to joke around with by any means.

2) Power:
There's no whp or even crank hp difference with this mod. While no I do not have concrete "proof" of that statement, I am sure that if there was power associated with this mod someone would have produced dyno evidence in the last decade of this cars existence. So please, stop saying it does add power. Beating grandma's Toyota Camry isn't proof, either.

3) Visual Appeal:
Some individuals, like myself, wanted to make the engine bay just a little tidier and get rid of some hoses. I was in the middle of getting my motor replaced when doing this mod, and I elected to run a shorter hose from the outlet at the back of the block straight to the inlet where it goes to the return system on the front cover. Most people wont notice this effort or mod, but it certainly means less hose running around and less mess if i have to remove the throttle body for any reason. For some people who are going the whole nine yards in creating a cleaner looking engine bay, that is one of the hoses that can be altered to contribute to a cleaner looking compartment.

So at the end of the day, the throttle body bypass can be classified as a "out of boredom" mod. Live in an area that never sees freezing temperatures? Go for it. Want a "cleaner" engine bay? Go for it. Don't want to spill coolant if you ever need to remove the TB? Go for it. Want to get another 5whp for putting a brass barb fitting and hose clamps to join two hoses? Well in your case, lakemod.

That's my contribution to this thread.

You have some flaws in your debate.

"Yes your throttle body will be slightly cooler, but it wont make much of any difference since the air passes through the throttle body so quickly that it doesn't really have time to affect the intake temperature."

I would have to disagree. Look at a turbo set up... Cool air passes through the turbo and this is a small heat source. Air is forced by way faster then N/A could produce. The heat is created from the turbine not because its pressurized.

Think about how fast the air is forced though a small area of heat. The air gets so hot you need an inter cooler to utilize the air better for performance.

This is the exact same thing. It is just on a way smaller scale. Even if it gets you .000000000000001 crank HP it is still a benefit. This will get better with more supporting mods. Say it gave you .001 hp. Then you add an exhaust. Now that mod is giving you .01 hp. Then you add a good intake. Now your getting more from the exhaust and the TB mod. You might even get .1 hp from the TB mod.

I truly be leave that the temps do raise from the TB. You have a 200 degree ring of heat around your air flow.

If you didn't do it you would be losing out on helping your other mods. We all know, even .25hp matters with a small engine. There is no proof because how small the result is. But it is a good result and not bad. Meaning there is no reason not to do this unless you live in cold climates.

Alright so who is going put temp sensors in their intake track first?

I love this website. :lol:

Turbochargers get several hundred degrees hotter than the throttle body under normal operating conditions, so I wouldn't quite call a turbocharger a good comparison to the throttle body.

Also if I am not mistaken, compressing air raises the temperature. Pressure, volume, and temperature are all directly proportional. So an intercooler is needed for not just the turbo which is several hundred degrees hotter that is heating the air but also because physics/thermodynamics states that the increase in air pressure of a defined volume of air will raise the air temperature.

wheres monchie, we need his assistance to convince a noob :rollingla
im shocked people still argue theres a hp differemce with this mod, too. referencing turbochargers and 0.25hp :yelrotflm

Well if we gonna compare turbos to throttle bodies and their affects on intake temps and hp, lets spice it up a bit. What about coolant? Surely there is a difference in temp which could give you a loss in hp from the car running 0.00005*f hotter. :rollingla

Here is proof that it works on the LS1's. Gives them HP gains on the dyno.

Throttle body coolant hose bypass: LT1?? - LS1TECH

But yeah we have a 13b. The exact same application doesn't apply to us :rollingla.

I can show proven results for many different engines. Even a Honda guy that did put temp sensors and showed a 30 degree difference. With before and after results.

Just because you think it doesn't work doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Show some info on where/why you think its a waste of time. I not sitting here saying I think. Yes I don't know what the gain is but there is a gain.

If the ls1 gets 7-9 hp "proven" and a Honda gets a 30 degree drop in temp "proven". Then I have a guy saying I think its a retard mod "not proven". Who are you going to listen to?

The point of all this is, will the TB mod give you a gain? YES it will give you a gain but we don't know how much with the 13b.

At the same time all this is a waste of time. I could have a dyno video of the 13b getting 4hp gain from the TB mod and you guys would still disagree with proof in front of you.

Here is a dyno sheet of a ls1 gaining hp from this mod.
http://ws6.com/mod-8.htm

Nature of the beast :wallbash:

Straight out of the guys mouth.
"Everyone, including myself, thought this mod would be almost useless. Boy were we wrong. It is a noticeable gain, but again, due to the low percentage, I can't feel it. Oh well."

does mod on rx8 ...

proves results by quoting ls1 forum...

win.



My favorite part is when people actually start to consider the delta T that is regained as it enters that funny thing called the LIM ... *smh*

No one has dynoed a 8 for this before. Cant prove something that no one has done.

I can prove that it works for many many different engines. Take a look at 6crew.com. They show proof for other mazda engines.

Like I said, I can show proof on how this works for many different engines, just not the 8.

And because there is no proof for the 8 you guys think its a stupid mod. That alone sounds stupid.

it is only stupid when you don't consider (or in your case incorrectly consider) the physics behind the fluid flow characteristics of the renesis.

First off, for those who are taking the IAT temps before and after this mod .... they do realize that the IAT is coming from the MAF right? ... which sits BEFORE the TB ....

Second off ... consider that airflow through a vacuum does a funny thing ... it creates a small film of air on the inner wall of the tube .... so while you might be decreasing the temps of the thin layer of air on the walls of the intake tube ... it is not affecting the air in the middle of the tube (the fastest moving air, and the air that is reaching the engine first) much at all.

Third ... whatever temps that you are reducing at the TB, is regained as it passes through the UIM, then to the LIM.

This isn't a piston engine where the TB leads to a short intake runner then to the combustion chamber.

out of all those cars, which ones have motors fed by a metal intake manifold? correct me if im wrong but both have plastic intake manifolds where most of our manifold is metal (plastic that connects to a metal lower manifold that gets much hotter being bolted into the side of the block)

If you are SO confident this mod increases HP, why dont you dyno your car before and after to prove us wrong?

just to be more clear ... i dont want to discourage you from gathering data. I am just saying that you cannot compare this engine to any other engine in regards to small gains obtained from what are nothing more then "i am bored" mods.

The only reason I would actually do this mod is if I have a TB spacer after the TB that is spraying nitrous in an attempt not to heat up the spacer plate (which depending on the nitrous setup you have, could actually be beneficial) ..... other than that, not much to be gained.

ding ding ding

The problem is, you guys are thinking I'm saying you will get big gain from this.

My only point is, you will gain something from it. Even if its a half a HP, it is still a positive gain.

With ANY mod that shows a positive gain, is a mod everyone should consider.

Its like filling your tires with a lighter gas. Can you prove that it works, NO. The only thing you can do is try to take time off a run. If it gave me .01 faster on my time would I keep doing it, HELL YEAH.

The whole point of this is will the TB mod help? YES, its up to you to decide if it is worth the small gain. But in the end, it has a positive effect and not a negative.

The whole point of this thread.

http://t.qkme.me/3qrrfx.jpg

What do I win?

The Honda guy installed temps sensors before and after the TB. Wasn't even part of the ecu at all.

I highly doubt a small film of air is going to be even close to a 200 degree ring of heat. Heat radiates pushing away from the source. This is not a vacuum line with no heat source.

I understand what you are saying but everything changes when you add a 200 degree ring of heat. Now you have heat trying to escape 360 around. Pushing heat to the center of the tube. The only film of air thats going to be there is hot ass air, heat that is being radiated from the TB. Which will change the air flow/dynamics all together. Cool air will try to go around the heat source as the heat is pushing it away alone with bringing heat with it as with any heat source will radiate heat.

The intake is way I say you will get less performance from it (but do still get some). Even if the air temp in the camber is down by 1 degree, it is still a positive effect.

I read the dyno chart , but it was for a LT-1 big v8?. It would be cool to see a dyno chart to compare. It would seem that after warm up everything under the hood is heat soaked. The morei read the more it gets complicated. I did this mod and reversed it because I really didn't feel any difference ad when I put my hand on the TB it was still too hot to touch, so I don't get the debate at all unless we have a dyno for an 8 to compare with the LT-1. I am leaving mine back in the stock position.

3 runs were done.
One with out the mod, one with and one with it heat soaked.

Even with the big v8 getting 7whp, he stats "it is still not noticeable".

With that said, I don't think you will ever notice any gain with any application/car with the butt. The results are to low to notice it. But is there.

I agree.

Mods, why can't I delete my first post in order to delete this stupid ass thread? Because it was moved?

I have asked Zoom to look into that. It appears that with the new member changes, the ability for someone to delete their first post has been removed. (unintentionally)

I moved all these posts out of the DIY thread, since arguing about the reasoning doesn't belong there and it was beginning to dominate the thread. I don't feel justified in simply deleting the debate.

Congrats. What's next? Home made intake? Neon underglows? Plastidip?

Yea whole cars gonna be Plastidipped gonna be red though no other color :rollingla

Sounds about right. But at least your throttle body is a crisp cool 200F now.