So what your saying is that the factory OMP is a piece of shit, or mis-engineered by Mazda? From my time owning my car and reading up I kinda feel that the R&D time was kind of half assed.

Would it help anything to get a GReddy oil pan, allowing you to have a slightly larger capacity of oil, keeping it a bit cooler?

Anything that will cool the engine is worth it.

I'm interested the the larger oil radiators they use in the 09 RX8

Its just that I had a AT and no one ever made any go fast parts for the AT :squint:


I dont know. If they dont talk like RG then they can hit the door. This guy knows his stuff hands down :)

Cool. Didn't know that. I guess mineral spirits work just as well as pre-mixing for engine performance and longevity then:lol:

Partially correct on the first part, with a dose of Urban Legend added for good measure on the last part. MMO is nothing like Auto trans fluid to set the record straight.

In actuality, MMO is a very good lubricant and an average cleaner, even though it is very thin viscosity wise - do not confuse viscosity with lubrication as light oils can lubricate very well as well.

MMO will clean up varnish and sludge very well (in both fuel and oil), but is just OK on cleaning existing carbon (use normal fuel cleaner to get rid of that), but it is excellent on preventing the formation of new carbon.

You see, MMO won't let carbon solidify in the combustion chamber and that is why all engines that run it have very clean (and well lubed) combustion chambers, including spark plugs. The carbon is just blown out the exhaust - one of the reasons this is an interesting alternative for the rotary.

While it does not emulsify carbon like Lube Control's products, it is a great carbon preventer. You could use it alone in your fuel or mix with a 2-cycle to help prevent carbon buildup. You might also need to run some 44K, Techron, or Gumout Regane through to get the existing carbon out to start with though.

For those concerned with fuel pump clogging due too thick oil, but are looking for some extra lube and cleaning, this is the great alternative as it is very thin and will not have any fuel flow issues (or it can dilute down your 2-cycle as well), but will provide lube and cleaning on top of the natural OMP flow.

Here is the real composition of MMO (as best as has been discovered through analysis) and MSDS filings - not all the heresay we always get:

70% Light Aromatic Oil (Pale Oil) - good lubricant and decent cleaner (because it's aromatic)
29% Mineral Spirits - decent cleaning and the carbon formation preventer
38 parts per million (ppm) Boron - very effective barrier lubricant
900 ppm Phosporous - very effective barrier lubricant (and will not hurt cat at this level diluted in fuel)
1% 1, 2 ortho-Dichlorobenzene - friction reducer/Anti-wear
Oil of wintergreen - for the scent
Red Dye - for the color

While the benzene is a little controversial, there has not been any reports that I have seen of any bad side effects because of their use here - Marvel seems to have figured out how to get the benefits without incurring any side effects.

Update for anyone considering use - standard dosage is 4 oz/10 gallons -- it is almost impossible to overdose, but benefits stop increasing at about 1 oz/1 gallon.

FWIW.

Larger oil pan.
 

Eh, I don't see the larger oil pan assist in the event of cooling, just storage capacity. Add 2 more oil injectors that's managed by the OMP, then you have an increased rate of oil consumption. The oil coolers should be managing the oil temp before it cycles back through the system. The OMP from what i've read is 2 fold mechanical & Electrical, mechanical being the rate increases exponential to the RPM's, but is also managed by the PCM i'm guessing handles the baseline flow delivery. (Somebody correct me if i'm wrong) There's a big Thread on the OMP here with some people doing a teardown on it back in 05'. Quite a few people have made a seperate OMP Reservoir so it can be monitored and assured a clean lubrication delivery to.... and in turn using premix in it as an addition.

In short, the engine revision IMO is Engineers trying to end the double edge sword. Rev low, build up carbon don't risk heat hotspots on apex seals and side seal area's. Rev it hard daily, add normal driver poor oil change maintenance to the factor, the 2 injectors won't be able to manage the hotspot areas a 3rd injector lends to cover the surface area for heat dissipation during the higher rpm band...

So this allows heat stability in higher rpm bands, preventing possible apex warping, or side seal failure.

Hardest part is to convince a customer that it's safe to rev daily...

Thanks for your last post Jax. I've known MMO was good sh** for a very long time, and have been using it for years.

Jax RX8 ~

rather than use space to quote your entire post (55), i'll simply say thank you for posting that. next to the original post by Rotarygod and a few other isolated posts here and there, yours was truly helpful and seemed objective.

seeing as though i've had my first brush with what i can only guess is a clogged fliter/pump this weekend on the road, i have one more issue to address on the 8 very soon.

this is just a question that came to me this weekend as one issue after another reared it's head ... how much input does/did Ford have in the development of the Rx-8 as it transferred from concept to the road car that we have (and will have in '09)?

Okay, and here is your typical ATF:

Ingred Name:LUBRICATING OIL BASE STOCK HYDROTREATED LIGHT NAPHTHENIC PETROLEUM DISTILLATES (CAS NO. 64741-97-5 OR
64742-54-7 OR 64742-65-0) (AS OIL MIST)
CAS:64741-97-5
Fraction by Wt: 90.48%

Ingred Name:ZINC SALT OF DIALKYL DITHIOSPHORIC ACID (ZINC DIALKYL
DITHIOPHOSPHATE)
CAS:68457-79-4

Ingred Name:C.I. SOLVENT RED 164
Fraction by Wt: 0.02%

Ingred Name:XYLENES (O-,M-,P- ISOMERS) (SARA III)
CAS:1330-20-7
RTECS #:ZE2100000
Fraction by Wt: TRACE

Hmmm: 90% Naphthenic oil mist base stock instead of the 70% in MMO, and Xylene instead of Benzen... and zinc instead of the lameness of Phosphorous but interesting enough even the red die is the same.

(and lets face it Xylene is a better choice than Benzene just on an environmental standpoint).

But basically the same thing as MMO, just missing Mineral Spirits.

So, again A VERY POOR CHOICE for a Pre-mix replacement.

Well unless you are convinced that dumping solvents such as Benzene and Mineral Spirits into your gas tank is a good thing.

Icemark, the difference between your post and Jaxs' is his are objective while you obviously feel that MMO is harmfull for a combustion engine.

I'm sure since you feel that way, you must have some sort of documentation(info) that can show all of us why you feel strongly about this???

Well interpreting the post of rotaryGod and assuming that his assumption is correct this implies that renesis engines till 09 are a failure. How is it possible that Mazda estimates 400.000Km for life span of renesis having such a serious flow?

Anyway if there were proofs about rotaryGod assumption Mazda should replace every single renesis engine that is sold !!!

The do have a similar base oil, but beyond that they have a totally different additive package formula for serving different purposes.

It is like saying that Royal Purple and Amsoil are the same oils because they both predominately use group IV oil (PAO) as their base oil - that does not make them the same thing as the additive package of an oil has much more to do with the performance than does the base oil. In this comparison RP loves Moly as a key part of the add pack and AMSOIL uses Boron and others in combinations - these oils both perform well but in very different ways.

I m not trying to sell MMO here - just trying to provide as much info as I have and let you make up your own mind.

Personally, I think it's pretty good stuff, not as good as Lube Control (surprise, surprise for those that have read my posts), but nonetheless, a good product with easy availability and great price.

Just so it doesn't get lost in the conversation, the reason I made the post above is because MMO is uniquely situated to serve a rotary in 2 ways:

(1) because of it's ability to prevent carbon formation - even if you want to use 2-cycle to premix, mixing with MMO (or FP Plus of course) could also go a long way towards preventing carbon buildup, and

(2) it would be a good premix for someone concerned with clogging their fuel pump as it is very thin and miscible (mixes well with fuel) and you do not have to worry with overdosing when using this exclusively like you might with FP Plus.

Anyways, hope this helps some.

I should point out that everyone with a gasoline powered vehicle puts a solvent in their tank every time they fill up. It's just a solvent with other crap that's mixed in. Diesel fueled cars however install lubricants in their tanks. Not as much so now with the lower sulfur content but still more than gasoline.

FWIW: MMO is a popular engine assembly lube. I'm not advocating it's use as a premix in anyway but the fact that it is used as a lubricant is significant.

I don't want to absolutely scare everyone as the car and engine have been out several years now and many people haven't had any issues at all. That in itself speaks voumes. It is still something that worries me though and something I feel to be a design flaw. That's just my personal opinion though.

^ I understand

Because of your experience with rotary engines your post seems logical and very but very true.

So reading a rotary knowledgeable person’s opinion about design flow of renesis is kind of scaring and disappointing together.

At least a premix is a solution in the event that your assumption about the design flow will be proved to be true :)

yep, it would be nice to get some extra mileage out of the motor, plus it seems like "richening" up the premix helps compression which helps power.

actually to go the other way, except for the flooding, the rx8 is the most reliable mazda out right now. at least thats what it looks like at our dealership.

yes i said that in the other thread

I have to further point out that while there are flaws with the Renesis; quite serious flaws in terms of how first batch cars were tuned, there are actually flaws with almost every engine out there. Toyota, a manufacturer much ballyhooed for their reliability (whether deserved or undeserved we'll leave for another thread), had issues with their 2ZZ-GE Celica GT-S engines failing and also oil sludge issues with their Camry motors. Just because an engine has a known weak point doesn't mean all of them are doomed to failure, especially if you pay attention and find ways to address the weak points, like what we can do here.

I believe I basically said that.

The 2JZ engine was a piece of crap. It's still the most overrated piece of crap out there yet everyone loves it. When Toyota wanted to turbocharge it, they couldn't make it a viable engine for the job on their own. They outsourced it's refinement to a German company of all things.

Yup I know, I just clarified it a bit more. The last thing we need is more chicken littles declaring the Renesis a failure and the rotary powerplant a dead end.

The OMP itself is already a compromise. Cuz if Mazda ask people to *premix everytime @ fillups* no one will even buy this car.

and for some weird reason, some people never burn any oil then the next thing they know, is their engine is toasted.

My OMP works fine and Im burning oil.

Greddy oil pan is good for increasing cooling capacity

RG,
Damn fine post!

Might be time to cave in and start pre-mixing.

would Lube control FP60 or FP Plus be considered a decent alternative for premixing?

FP Plus is a UCL, but I don't know if that qualifies itself as a proper premix on a rotary engine.

I put 4oz into every tank of gas and my engine loves it.

Yes this is the best thread in a long time.

Anybody try the Redline 2 stroke/cycle oils?

http://www.redlineoil.com/products_m...3&categoryID=3

Seems like this development about the latest rotary engine, means a really good premix or gas additive is needed for the present engine.

However I think something that lubes and cleans carbon deposits would be the best, as oppose to just doing one or the other.

I know it sounds a bit crazy, but I was thinking of mixing Redline 2 stroke racing oil with Redline SI-1 Complete Fuel System Cleaner, to get the "right effect" of cleaning and lubrication.

SOme observations from various posts here. On the track I see a noticable difference in the performance of my car depending on the level of oil in the sump. full its like a dream. 3/4 or less and its noticably worse. My car has since day one been one of the cars that uses very little oil. Not none, but I would be lucky if I had to fill up half a dipstick in 10,000k (hard to tell as I often track at least twice in between).

Unrelated to this thread but i'll mention it anyway, I have noticed my car is very different to most others in that when my car is hot, when I turn the car off, the fan stops, but if I turn the key to accessories, the fan starts again. Everyone else I know of, the fan continues to run.

On the topic of premixing, I haven't read to much into the fuel filter issues other than to know that people are having them. But I wonder if they are linked to people using motor oil instead of 2 stroke oil?

My car is in getting turbo fitted atm and based on this I think I will be premixing until further notice. However based on a previous comment, when the fuel filter starts to get clogged, would an A/FR guage be a good identifier of this?

Cheers

Andrew

now we just got to sit and wait for the NEW RX8 owners to drive there new RX8's and see if they come here with engine problems LOL~

... thats what you call a Great Synopsis.
very interesting..

And I would agree 100%, however there are only a certain number of guages I can have (without looking stupid) and an AFR was already on the cards. Going by an earlier comment by mysql101 I figured I could just pay more attention to this at high rpm.
Cheers
Andrew

I could be a little out of my league here, but I was lead to believe that the inconsistant mileage and power is due to a seal clearance issue rather than the OMP. The seals are not all clearanced the same on each motor...no doubt if they were we would still be waiting for our RX8's....

Despite the seals not seeing center lubrication, the rotor housing surface provides very minimal friction.

Awaiting flames....

Redline SI-1 is a very good Poly Ethyl Amine (PEA)-based cleaner like Techron and Gummout Regane, so it cleans very well with the added benefit of some lubricity included.

On using the RL 2-cycle - they make excellent 2-cycles (like everything else), but most are made for motorcycles, boats, snomobiles that do NOT have cats and RL loves to use lots and lots of ZDDP in their 2-cycles. This high ZDDP levels provides great wear protection , but WILL kill you cat pretty quickly.

Before I would consider any RL 2-cycle, I would contact them to see if any of their 2-cycles are considered cat-safe as all of the ones I have seen oil analysis performed on are not.

I agree with SQL in that FP Plus is an UCL and does provide good lubricity, but not as much as a 2-cycle oils on an ounce for ounce basis.

FP Plus would be a perfectly fine "Premix", but will only buy you so much additional lubricity. It is also very thin and miscible, so there are no worries on fuel pump clogging. But, when you get the dosages above 1oz/5 gallons, you risk getting the solvency too high and eating into your oil films lubricating the rotor seals. Engine will run great, but may cause undue wear on rotor seals with too much FP Plus as it would clean off the oil films from the OMP/premix oils. (I specifically e-mailed Lube Control on this issue as I was considering this as well in my and they did not recommend going over the amounts I stated above)

SQL - I would not run 4oz to a 12 gallon refill for FP Plus - for FP60, this would be fine, but not FP Plus as it is much more concentrated. I would stick with 2oz for a 12 gallon refill and add 2 more oz of your preferred 2-cycle if you are looking for additional lubricity. The FP Plus will thin the 2-cycle considerably and help it's miscibility with the gas if you are concerned with fuel pump clogging.

Also, MMO is an option for additional lubricity as you do not have the "overdosing" issue like you can with FP Plus. For that matter, you could use FP Plus 2 oz/tank and supplement with as much MMO as you like (up to max) for someone wanting more lubrication but being concerned with fuel pump clogging as as both are very thin and miscibles oils. MMO is pretty much compatible with everything from an oil mixing standpoint.

Food for thought.

I thought we had solved the fuel pump clogging issue and put it down to mixing UCL with 2 stroke . Every time I hear pump clogging mentioned it is when people are mixing these two:dunno:

Great post RG BTW - you have obviously thought about this deeply .

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...7&d=1203465173

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...8&d=1203465380

thanks Easy E

on another issue since we have a pic- is this CAT bigger?

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...9&d=1203465380

Looks like the oil pan design could cause problems with the Greddy Turbo kit. I don't know if the manifold and turbo will fit with that configuration...

They won't.
That will require a complete re-design of the system.
Thanks, Mazda.

Is that sarcasm or genuine gratitude?

Well, since I have one of the RENESIS motors which seems to have low oil use, I thought I'd chime in.

85% freeway driving, 75-78 mph into LA, 65 mph or so around LA on the freeways, when not congested to a standstill, of course.
Fuel economy with premix, zero observed change in mileage.

The ONLY two factors I've noticed in fuel economy on my RX-8 is:
1. driving at 72 mph in 6th gear across the desert to LA and
2. doing so on 87 octane fuel

MPG on my stretch of freeway can vary from 18 to 22, depending on the wind, speed, and octane. 87 octane, at 72 MPH, with the cruise control on, can net 22 MPG. Light winds will knock that down into the 21 MPG range. 91 octane will net 19 MPG in the same conditions, consistently. This is not to say that 87 octane makes more power, just that it burns well in the 3400 RPM range in the RENESIS. Around town I can see 11 to 18 MPG, but here the 91 octane seems to outperform the 87 octane, staying between 15 and 17 MPG, where the 87 octane is typically lower. Worst measurements were with 91 octane on Willow Springs, and at a Gymkhana USA event, at 7 MPG and 9 MPG respectively!

Pre-mix made no difference.

This was all done on a 2006 RX-8 with less than 16,000 miles though, and the latest OMP flash. Perhaps pre-mix would help more as the apex seals and housings wear slightly?

As far as OMP metering goes. I don't think I've used 6 full quarts in 20k! That would be somewhere around one quart per oil change, around every 3500 miles or so. if my OMP is NOT adding enough oil, well that's Mazda's tough luck because they'll be buying the engine up to 60,000 miles.

Before someone says "Well, your driving must be changing constantly.", I'll have you know that in my wife's 2007 Nissan Quest 3.5 liter minivan, I can consistently do 23.8-24.5 MPG on 87 octane! At 75 miles per hour! With two adults, one small child, two small dogs, and suitcases on board!

Sarcasm. The new motor will require an entirely different turbo system.
That will be a headache for me, at least.

Ditch the wife, dogs and children and the experience will be much more satisfying.
Ditch the minivan while you are at it! :lol:

sounds like it might be a good thing if you still have your OMP functioning.... reduce carbon build-up, keep the injectors clean, and suppliment the lubrication of the seals?

Very true!! - but my point was you can only obtain a certain amount of additional lubricity before you max out how much FP Plus you should use (1 oz/5 gallons, which is twice the standard dosage). If you are happy with that amount of lubricity on top of the normal OMP oil feed, great - you are ready to go.

But, if you are seeking even more lubricity, then you should accomplish this with 2-cycle or MMO mixed with FP Plus and not by just using more FP Plus as the solvency will get too high. While 2-cycles and MMO do have cleaners as well, they are much milder in general as these are lubricants first with a some cleaning benefits added and thus will not hurt your overall lubricity as you increase the amounts.

Hope this is clearer.

I don't get this clogging the fuel pump crap...

I have used pre-mix in rotaries for 20 years and never had a clogged fuel pump.

My own '8 has had pre-mix since almost day one.

Are people using something else than a TCW3 rated two stroke/pre-mix? Because with a good TCW3 rated pre-mix you should never run into a clogged fuel pump or filter even at as high of a ratio as 50/1.

I can only assume that people with this clogged fuel pump crap are either not using a emissions compatible TCW3 oil or a using it at ratios above 25/1 (which would probably fuck your octane up pretty bad anyway) or it is some pre-mix bashing BS.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...8&d=1177052702

from this thread

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-aftermarket-performance-modifications-23/hold-pre_mixing_surprise-find-108224/

and this thread

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-aftermarket-performance-modifications-23/interest-fix-fuel-starvation-issues-105156/page8/

I have the same situation. I've had the dealer check it out and they say the fans are working correctly, but that doesn't really put me at ease. I'm still concerned about the temps. getting too high. I just allow for an extended cool down period after spirited driving when it's hot outside.

I've never encountered any other mention of this issue on the forum:dunno:

Is there even any evidence of accelerated apex seal wear on our engines? Yes there have been motors replaced due to low compression - but that doesn't mean its apex seal wear and we never find out the real reason for the low compression. Carbon build-up is more likely the culprit on many of them.

About the only engine i've heard of ripped down and measured has been GRH's and his seal measurements were fine if i remember correctly

yes - but all those problems were from whem people mixed UCL with premix .....

I have a feeling that the reason why our fuel pump crap so fast simply because .... its crap to being with.

My pump start showing issues too. Im getting misfires at High rpm for extended periods of time, or maybe Engine dying who knows. but only happens when I have low gas in tank (less than 1/2)

Never have a problem if its full tank.

Man, Im gonna change the crap out on my next Vacation (probably due in March)

r0tor tore your engine down?

Since I didn't get the rotor housings, I couldn't measure them for wear. It would have been interesting to check the wear across the face of the housings to see if the center had greater wear or not.