MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I'm back. Nope. No peripheral exhaust.

alz0rz

iTrader: (41)

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Ahh ~ Save that nice & warm glass of STFU to yourself.

fwo

i have worked in a japanese manufacturing supplier for over 5 years, and one of our trade secrets at my last company was a catalytic nickel plating that we called "Kanigan Coating" it was first used in japanese water treatment pumps, to reduce wear and cavitation. It is EXTREMELY difficult to perfect a nickel wear coating without peeling and to have a consistent thickness (10 microns plus or minus 2 microns)

it could possibly be a "Kanigan" type coating.

google it.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I think there is a semantics problem here.
It is with the term "coating".
Regardless of what the surface material is, the method by which it is applied to the epitrochoid surface is not analogous to the traditional electroplating methods used in the past.
There is a reason Mazda trashes old Renesis housings. The surface is not renewable.

fwo

agreed, it is not a traditional electroplate, nor would you be able to do it twice, no matter the method of application.


whoever recoated that rotor housing is going to have problems reaaaaaal quick.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, that is an REW housing in those pictures.
People ceramic coat them and such with results varying from poor to catastrophe.
For a drag car, I guess it isn't an issue.

The apex seals used in the MSP will walk right through any coating you can apply post OE.

rotarygod

I have found a company that has a very durable "chroming" technique that is intended for wear surfaces. It can be done. I had taken a housing in for them to look at so I could get a quote. I was given an estimate of around $1200 per housing. A new one from Mazda costs $563 each. Hardly worth it and even if cost weren't an issue, they still aren't proven.

I asked Dr. Ianetti about this same thing a couple of years ago since there are companies/people out there that are ceramic coating housings and doing all sorts of other things. His response to me at the time was that it can't be done with any form of reliability.

Outkast187

Thanks RG and olddragger.

My local industrial plater can do it no problem, he said its no problem deplating them and replating them. He said you have to change up the process slightly at the end of the plating to open the pores back up, the way the OEM did it. As long as there are no gouges, its a simple procedure. I can get it done pretty cheaply compared to those prices, and he was familiar with them.

So, once again....you guys...its hard chrome plating. Not a mythical magical mazda chemical thats sprayed on via teleportation. 100% without question, its hard chrome plating.

Mazdamaniac....I wonder if anyone has ever had a non Renesis engine installed into a Rx8? Thats a crazy thought.....nah, couldnt be possible.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

That isn't even the question. Check where you are.
Plate things to your hearts content and use MSP seals.
Let us know how that goes. We're all just newbs here.

rotarygod

If you can get it done economically and are willing to risk trying it then I say go for it and report the results. It may fail but there is always a chance it will work. One for sure way to find out.

RK

iTrader: (1)

He's working with a Cosmo 13B-RE. That's why he hadn't seen anyone do it in an RX-8 forum since it's not the RX-8 engine. It's also why this thread is such a massive failure of confusion.

That's why he pulled pics off of here:

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=310805&pp=25

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

After 4 years, that thread still has no results.

Sounds like most of the forced induction threads around here.

Jax_RX8

You need to read this closely from the document StealthTL provided:


"Hard Chrome is a dry coating; this meaning that
hard chrome will not naturally retain any oil or lubricants. In a piston engine or a
hydraulic cylinder type of application this not an issue because there is ample
lubrication applied to the chrome during operation (oil splashing on the cylinder
walls of a piston engine during operation OR hydraulic oil that fills a hydraulic
cylinder during operation). However, Rotary engines are sealed from the oil pan
and there is not oil or lubrication for the trochoid surface. Hard Chrome will not
naturally retain or absorb oil. Through special honing and etching variations of
chrome plating such as channel chrome or porous chrome can be achieved
whereby micro-channels or pores are created to try and retain lubrication.

Mazda found that neither channel chrome nor porous chrome were able to meet
the high lubrication demands of the rotary engine. To somewhat alleviate this
problem they developed micro channel pinpoint porous chrome plating for the
rotary engine, a combination of channel and porous chrome. The principle behind
this development is that porous chrome is applied to the part and then etched to
produce channels connecting the pores. This network of pores and channels is
devised to aid in the “spreadability” of the oil over the entire surface.

As demonstrated in the figures below, the ratio of pores versus channels is highly
critical. If this ratio is wrong the resultant coating will suffer from very poor oil
spreadability and chatter marks OR scratching of the surface. This process that
Mazda devised is very difficult and not easily replicated (especially cost
effectively), these figures show the obvious shortcomings of simply trying hard
chrome plate a rotor housing cheaply. The effects of improper plating are
excessive apex seal temperature and wear on both the seal and the chrome.
This eventually results in apex seal failure."


So, what I take from this is it is Hard Chrome, but porous hard chrome, applied in a very special process that is not going to be able to be easily replicated. The last paragraph highlights what happens when it is not applied properly - BTW the graph illustrates significantly higher friction levels for normal hard chrome (cF of .4-.5) versus Mazda's process in which cF is less that .1

Outkast187

Exactly right Jax. But its not difficult to reproduce. It cant be done easily on a severely worn housing, because it will have gone too far. The honing leaves fine grooves in the sleeve (nothing new), and when plated it has to be plated and at the end of the plating process, he said the process had to be reversed for a short time and this will open the pores up the way Mazda did it originally. This way you have your grooves, and micro pores to hold oil. I wouldnt suggest trying it on a perfect running engine, but if one is low on compression and nearly useless AND difficult to replace (13b-re comes to mind), it MAY be the best option. My local plater does industrial plating for large companies equal to that of Mazda, so if he says he can do it....I have no doubt he can do it.

It blows my mind that people have no clue on the subject and still claim I am wrong, I expected that from the typical honda tuner crowd. I hate a dumbass "tuner".

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

All you have done is make unsubstantiated claims yourself that you can replicate the Renesis SIP process. So, no one is "claiming" anything but you.
Go out and try this (on a Renesis housing with Renesis seals) and show us it works.

jeffe19007

We would love it if this would work, but are skeptical due to all of the past coating failures or lack of consistent success.

The DLC (diamond like coatings) and ceramics folks have had a run at it already. They still have some promise, but have yet to prove success.

If you can show this to work, great!

I will wait here for your results...

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Precisely.
The RX-7Club thread on this is 4 years old and has no results. How do you think that looks?

mysql

Just so that everyone can see what we're talking about.

Here's my RX-8 housings:

fwo

lol @ anyone reproducing that without a massive investment in equipment.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

theres a hard chrome deposition method called plasma spraying that works very effectively... just had it done at work fo fix a bent shaft a few months ago - basically "spray" on 10 thousandths or so of hard chrome and machine the thing straight again on the lathe

most industrial type machine shops can do it

Outkast187

My beef was with everyone saying "its not hard chrome plated", when I have proved it was. People talking **** that know absolutely nothing and probably cant change a damn spark plug. If anyone can replicate it besides Joe Blow @ Mazda assembly line is beyond me. I have heard people say they can without issue, and seeing how Mazda did this in the 60's...technology has drastically improved as well as technique. Once again, not all Rx8's have the renesis engine...and I couldnt care less about what the Renesis has inside it, because I dont own one....it could have pistons for all I know. Mazda didnt invent the wheel, and they did all of this with technology that was avaiable in the 60's. They have done the hard part, replicating it is the easy part if there is such a thing.

Outkast187

It could go either way. I have 5 year old threads on other boards that I lost intrest in...and the parts I manufactured were/are the best performing made. A ton of threads there are old and leave people hanging...hard to judge.

I am not sure if you understand what you are showing or not, but its really not relivant. None of that will change...the Iron sleeve will always stay in place (thats what the "teeth" are....aluminum/iron meeting together). It will look exactly the same when deplated, and then when replated.....Removing the sleeve would be a monumental task, it would be a nightmare.

Umm..An industrial plater has everything on hand to do it....Expensive, yes. But thats how they make money.

I see alot of people putting their dumbass two cents in, but only about 3 actual productive posts. I am not interested in hearing some jackass tuner's opinion. Someone can close the thread, I already have my source and apparently its over 99% of people's heads here.

mysql

outkast, for all the effort you put into trying to convince everyone that chrome foil would be amazing for us to use, you could have earned the $580 to buy a new rotor housing.

Since you don't own a RX-8, are you by chance related to Ike?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Its pretty funny that, as MM pointed out, this is rx8club.com, not rx7club.com. and then the OP said :

Funny. Its just so cool that you can change a spark plug. but you might want to relearn the way you read, this is rx8club.com, you made a post in the tech garage section in rx8club.com. if u're not talking about Renesis. you might want to delete this post and get out.

I can get a new rotor housing less than 580 bux. tell me why would I even cared about what you've said ?