Broker73

I happened to own a 2000 prelude......and I did luv it!........once the revs got up there it was fun to drive..........but come on?......it was no where close to being as fast as the 8, or have the handling capabilities...........both are great cars, but sometimes I shake my head at some people on here?........the prelude was clocked at 0-60 in 7.4secs using a hard launch........I think it was actually a little less, but this is no where close to the 8......and the balance of the car did not compare to the 8.............but yes I still miss it............if you drove it hard enough, the V-tec would kick in and surprise anyone who wanted to race..........but the 8 would be too far ahead for that to matter!...........I honestly wonder why people on here are unhappy or complain about the 8?.........it is one of the best cars I personally think for the $$........and not much slower than the 350Z which I test drove twice......and the styling makes heads turn....I think we are all lucky to have one..........or have one on order!!!.........

Tresch

Yeah, I'm getting close to buying an 8 every day I drive too many people around for the back seat in the lude!

Btw, my 'lude has a suspension kit, which overcomes a lot of the handling issues, heh.. maybe I should have mentioned that :P

official numbers: 0-60 in 6.7 and 1/4 mile in 15.2 seconds. that's with front wheel drive, open differential, 5 speed, and less effective torque curve. If it was a RWD, LSD, 6speed... it would probably be closer to a 6 second 0-60 and would easily be in the 14s in the quarter.. i.e: around the performance of the RX8. I'm not saying the RX8 doesn't perform better, I'm just saying that for the amount of power mazda claims, it just seems TO ME like the difference should be bigger, that's all.

but hey! I could be wrong. maybe I should just test drive the damned thing again... and have my friend in my car beside me, heh.. when they get the test drive car in at the dealer.. i'll take it for a longer ride then last time.

-Tresch

bureau13

And if pigs could fly... ;->

(c'mon you had to see that coming)

syntrix

Don't you mean if trolls could fly

I love the "my car is faster, and my friend is the fastest of everyone" posts in threads like these. makes me laugh for about 2 seconds.

canzoomer

Absolutely right. a lot of talk, not much lucid reasoning around here.
No. The reason it is running rich has bugger all to do with detonation. They are using extra rich mixtures to make the burn hotter in the exhaust pipe, and this makes the catalytic converters work more efficiently on CO to CO2 conversion.
Another factor on this is that the cats are a long way back down the exhaust pipe.
Some cars have them right close to the head exhaust ports.
With the cats as far back as we see on the RX-8 they may be fighting a problem with this. With regards to detonation, if you have knock happenening, it is already too late. The damage, especially on a rotaries seals , is already happening if knock starts.

No, it is the same as we get here.
The system in most of the world is to rate gas by the RON number.
That is the Research Octane Number. RON is a measure based on tests performed under low severity conditions.

There is also the motor Octane Number (MON)
MON is determined by testing under severe load conditions.
As neither is reflective of all conditions, the standard used in North America is a blend of these ratings.

In North America we use a rating called PON, for Pump Octane Number (also called Road Octance Number by some oil companies who want to further obfuscate the issue).
To determine PON, you use the following formula:
(R+M/2).
That is to say: RON+(MON/2)
Generally RON numbers are about 3 to 5% higher than PON numbers.
So, a world RON number of 95 is roughly equivalent to a PON of 91 or 92.
NONE of these standards are about how much power is available from burning the fuel. These are all about what at what compression and timing levels detonation (knocking) will occur.
Some brands of fuel use high aromatic content additives to boost the anti knowck index, and this has a side effect of also maming more power. Chevron, for example, uses what they call "Techron"
Techron is a fancy name for light aromatic solvent naptha.
See:
http://library.cbest.chevron.com/lub...8?OpenDocument
Other additives that raise the AKI actually reduce the power available from the fuel. A classic example of this is ethanol alcohol, in a 10% mix with gasoline. This is also sold as "gasahol" or "winter oxygenated fuel" it is alos popular as it substantially reduces some emissions levels, especially in winter.

Both methods prevent the occurence of knock. But one provides more available power, while the other reduces power.
One may also use readily available Xylene or Toluene to increase the AKI, Octan rating and make better power. However the carcinogenic properties of these are rather horrible.

See:
http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcnuts/fuelron.html
http://www.refiningonline.com/Engelh...ep/TCR4_29.htm
http://www.medfordfuel.com/octane.htm
http://www.shell.ca/code/motoring/en...fo/jargon.html
Actually, what I am hearing is two possible scenarios:
1) The claim that if the front wheels are not turning at the same speed as the rear, then the ECU, which obtains rpm numbers from all four wheels, assumes the car is in a loss of traction situation, and tries to stabilize the car by reducing power.
2) The ECU sees this condition, and assumes a sensor fault has occurred, and adjusts to "safer" fuel/air mix settings, reducing power as a side effect.

I dispute this. We measured the sensor load and outputs on the wheel sensors. When the DSC is disabled, the ECU is not receiving any signal from the wheel sensors.
The final proof that this is not a valid issue is the fact that cars in Japan, which have the same ECU and sensors, but with a different fuel air map installed, regularly produce dyno rear wheel HP of 210 to 215HP.
This is consistent with an engine making over 240 to 250HP.
In Canada and the USA similar dyno runs show an output between 170 and 185HP, which is consistent with an engine making 200 to 215HP.

As mentioned above the one simple fact that makes the claims about the ECU changing the performance on a dyno is that JSpec RX-8's make exactly the power output on a dyno that we would expect. This show that we can expect the car to dyno normally if the DSC is disabled, and it also shows a comparative difference of around 35HP between Japan and here.
247-35 is 212.
238-35=203
220-35=185
205-35=170

Exactly. More to the point is that Japan cars dyno as expected. Why would ones over here NOT dyno normally?
You are not stirring up trouble.
There are basically 3 factions in this discussion:
Those who are seeing the facts and accept them, and wait to hear more.
Those who do not care about the facts, they just love the car and their feelings are hurt if you say anything to imply it is less than they were led to belive.
Those who work for, or make a living from Mazda, and who toe the "party line" because to do so would risk their positions with Mazda.
It is awfully easy to read the postings and see which category each person fits.

Forthose who say I am whining, I wish to disagree.
I want to determine the facts.
Not the PR messages. We already know those are either provided by idiots or liars. I can see Mazda making a mistake when they said the Miata was 165HP.
I could see two mistakes when they said the RX-8 was 250HP.
After all, the general American response to other measurement systems is not uncommonly one of disregard: "Who need that funny metric system?"

But the idea that after all this they still did not actually know how much power the engine makes in emissions legal settings?
No way, Jose.

In the final analysis we had hoped Mazda would fix the problem. It is clear that they are not doing so.
As RX-8 owners we have three choices in this matter:
Live with it
Fix it
Give the car back to Mazda.

I fall into the middle category. I spent a modest amount of time and money investigating if it was possible to fix it, and determined to my satisfaction that this is not too hard, so I decided to keep the car. The other issues like the heat, AC, oil pan baffles, floor mats, block heaters, and so on are either being addressed by Mazda, or are easily remedied by our own efforts.
These are typical new model teething pains. Many other cars have far worse issues than this.

In addition to the project I am working on, I know of at least 3 other companies or parties working on similar ECU replacement or reprogramming approaches, so I am quite confident that I will own an RX-8 that performs to spec, in both HP and fuel economy ,in a short time period.

That is good enough for me, so today I sent Mazda Canada a letter stating that i have changed my mind, and will keep the car.
The PR person I spoke with was very positive about this, we discussed what some of us owners are doing about it, and he applauded our efforts.
Somewhere up high in Mazda management a decision maker sits, who is more interested in covering his ***, and in burying their liabilities and costs than in delivering what was promised.
While that may hogtie the engineers at Mazda from delivering what was promised, it does not make it impossible, or even very difficult to get what we wanted.
And it is still a lot cheaper than buying another car with similar features and performance.

The car is a bargain, even at 200HP.

250+HP at a cost of an extra $2000 is a steal.

Gord96BRG

Bravo, Canzoomer! I was very interested to read your research about the ECU and DSC inputs, and agree with your approach to investigate alternatives and solutions. Welcome back to the fold , and please keep us in the loop with your investigations and results! (I'm in the wanting to know all info category, by the way :D)

Regards,
Gordon

Tresch

"I love the "my car is faster, and my friend is the fastest of everyone" posts in threads like these. makes me laugh for about 2 seconds."

Hey man, it sounds stupid but it's true. MUST DEFEND MY CARS HONOR! Hehehe.

Canzoomer:

you rawk

Broker73

canzoomer........are you still trying to hold on to the image or belief the car does not produce 238hp??.............come on.........it was already clear from the release why the dyno results are showing less power............and with the 0-60 times and 1/4 times times from all the different sources, the car produces at least 230+hp,...........everything makes sense........but it does lack in the 5-60 times..............anyway, I commend your efforts......and would luv to find a way to get 250+hp......but the car is just fine the way it is.........and to the guy who had the prelude at 0-60 in 6.7..........you wish..........every mag out there that tested the car had 0-60 in no better than 7.4secs...........

canzoomer

No, you are mistaken.
I don't. The facts do!

As you are sailing down denial, watch out for these!

TiRX8

As long as canzoomer sticks around we'll make progress. I'm glad you're sticking around 'zoomer!!

nk_Rx8

What you are saying sounds similar to what jmanalov posted about Sport Compact Car finding in their GTech testing with sensors disabled. It now really does sound like Mazda is just throwing out techno babble to hide the real cause.

rxeightr

Very good news indeed ! Can you be more specific? What kind of MPG gains to you expect? How short of a time period?

Certainly glad to hear canzoomer you decided to keep your RX-8, your observations are always read with interest.

poison123

Of course will the reprogrammed ECU's meet emissions tests that more and more states are starting to impose.

Gord96BRG

As far as I know, plans are in the works to run the RX-8 on a 4 wheel dyno (where the front roller is linked/driven by the back roller), and to run on a regular dyno with a code reader in place to see if the engine is indeed going into a safe mode. There's also the issue of the Japanese ECU code, and seeing if our ECUs were re-flashed with that code if we'd get more power. I haven't heard of anyone having any luck in that front, however.

Regards,
Gordon

O.R.A.

Yeah, the rules do not allow it.

bureau13

You're just playing dumb right? You don't really think if new rules were set up that expressly allowed this configuration, people would be racing to use them do you?

jds

canzoomer

I do not know with certainty.
All I know is what I read and hear, just like everyone else.
If people in Japan get dyno runs over 210HP, however, I doubt that this is really an issue..

Whther it is down 5HP or 50 from what is claimed I can say that at the top end I definitely feel that is down on power, and i believe that can be improved.

canzoomer

Nothing too specific yet. Once we are done I will report what we have done.
I am hoping to gain at least 2MPG on use with higher rpm ranges.
On cases where people baby it a bit and keep it down in the lower rpms ranges i doubt it will change mileage much.

We are focusing on what happens above 6000rpm.
The time period is a bit uncertain.

We hope to achieve some results in the next week that I can report on with facts and dyno figures.

There is a season ending drag race in my area next weekend. They have some categories for admission by amateurs , and if we can get enough done in time we will enter my car for the sake of curiousity.

As far as making something suitable for others to install, the biggest challenge is the ECU connectors.

We know what company makes them, but I do not have any information yet as to availability. That will be fairly critical, as we plan to make the unit plug in between the ECU and the harness leading into it. That way it can be installed with wrenches and screwdrivers and without permanent modifications.
For doing a prototype we do not need proper connectors, but as a production item it will be necessary.
The rest of the components we are using are parts that are on the aftermarket already.

canzoomer

We are aiming to be legal under Canadian emissions rules. They are similar to some US states.

For some it will not pass the tests. California, for example.

wakeech

no, the rules don't allow it but the only advantage it MIGHT offer the teams who decided they want to fatten up, weigh down, and complicate their already fragile and complicated machinery are the ones way way at the back thinking they can get a better start using traction control and 4WD/AWD. after that, there is NO advantage to using 4WD/AWD. end of discussion.

Cons:
- it's expensive, thus far undeveloped, drive mechanisms complicated, would disrupt the modern structure of the chassis (and all incumbent aerodynamic concessions you see on all modern cars), and also heavy, increasing both sprung and unsprung mass, decreasing the ability to ballast the car (and set it to the right balance)

Pros:
- at the start might gain a car ~1.0s on the first lap at best, to later be passed as their wholly inferior car can't keep up.

don't even try to say that this comprimise is worth looking into, even if it was in the rules.

Doctorr

Excellent news, Zoomer, both on the wheel sensor front, and the fact that you are keeping the car!

You are eminently qualified to work on the ECU issue, and I am sure we can look forward to a fix.....(though we may have to learn 'Linux' to use it!... )

One point to consider is that the system may be receiving inputs from an accelerometer. If it has one, it would be located at the 'centre of rotation' of the chassis, in the console between the seats.....
.
.
.
doc

canzoomer

Thanks Doc!

As far as the Linux part goes, that should be no major problem. Hard Data Ltd. is the first company in Canada selling computers with Linux pre-installed, since 1993.
Matter of fact almost all our business is Linux based.
http://www.harddata.com/
http://www.linux.org/vendor/company/0015.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=Maurice+hilarius+Linux

As far as a chassis acceleromoter, I guess it is possible, but i feel that it is fairly unlikely.
The wiring diagrams do not show one.

I bought the Mazda RX-8 wiring manual ( it is a separate manual from the shop manual and cost me $125).

rotorian

Canzoomer,
I have read all your various posts with very much interest.
I for one, pegged you as a "whiner", but now it seems you know what you are talking about! I apologize, it just seemed that you originally were so sarcastic and cynical. Now you are channeling your energies the right way!

I have decided to give the car back, mostly because I don't want to drive it in the winter, and..... hope that all the issues, horsepower, mpg etc are solved by the spring. I do love this car and will probably get another then.

Keep up the good work.

It's a shame that Mazda has handled this all so poorly. Let's hope they eventually learn from all of this.

BTW, what do you do for a living? You seem to know much more than most of us.

canzoomer

Thanks for the kind words Rotarian.

I think that whether you keep this car, or buy another later, you will sooner or later end up with an RX-8, as you obviously like it a lot.
I understand, as I do too.

I was what you call a "whiner" because I was hoping to persuade a lot of people to make enough of a stink with Mazda to motivate them to DO something.
That did not work, so now on to Phase II: "Do something myself".

As for what I do?

I am the president of a company that designs, manufactures and supplies computer equipment.
Most of our equipment is sold to Universities and government/military institutions for research, computational work, etc.
We also build a line of mass storage servers from 1 to 6 TerraByte capacity data storage filesystems.

My background is in electronics, computing, metal fabrication and design, and my hobbies are computers, A/V, cars, pets ( tropical fish, reptiles, etc), travel, cars and bikes, motorsports, and soccer.

I try to keep busy!

As for what I know, well, I am a hardware hacker, I confess. Whether it is computers, cars, satellite, audio and video, I love to take things apart and make things i think up.
Due to the nature of my business and my travel hobby i import and export a lot, hence the reason i am importing Mazda Japan and Mazda Speed parts..
Everything I have learned on the RX-8 has been from reading, the Web, and talking to other people. I have several friends with RX-7's, and have owned an rX-3 many years ago.

I also do not like Mazda Canada a lot, as I have had dealings in the past with them on a few cars, and the service, parts, and warranty issues are a repetitive nightmare.
My son is in the middle of fixing his 1996 Mazda Millenia S ( the one with the Miller Cycle engine with a supercharger) and he has had his first experience with Mazda, and their parts prices and issues.

Take a look at our webite for some info on our computer gear..
http://www.harddata.com

NashuaCLS

Sorry to say Mazda engineers are misleading Rotarynews and all of you!

Who are they kidding?

first of all, if the DSC (similar to Acura's VSA on my CLS) is disabled (turned off), it will not affect the ECU in anyway. The article also agrees with this fact.

Second, like any modern car the ECU after seeing a a 100% load (or WOT) will rich the mix of the fuel. Then, the ECU will lean it as the air is coming to the engine. No secret about that, any Dynojet with Wideband O2 sensor will show you the A/F mixture.

Also, if the the engine is chocking of air, ( like if there is no Huge fan in front the engine to keep it from overheating and keep decent supply of O2) the knock sensor will retard the timing. This is true if you are on dyno or running on hot summer day. Slipping the rear or if the front are stationary has nothing to wiht that!

However, Mazda in their article mentioned Catalic Conveter and Exhaust temprature... It is not about knock sensor, it is all about limiting emissions to please the EPA.

Again why the JDMs RX-8 dyno 200+ SAE WHP?!!

Nashua.