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alnielsen 04-24-2009 08:38 AM


Originally Posted by onefatsurfer (Post 2986176)
BP is ethanol free?
I might have to switch brands... Too bad theres no BP near me

The way gas if formulated depends on what state, or even county, you buy it in. It's all a matter of Federal & State laws. Unfortunately for me, all gas here contains ethanol due to state law. This is a farm state and the legislators wanted to pander to the farm vote.

jsjjr 04-24-2009 08:38 AM

I'm just astonished. I have no loyalty to any (name) brand, but will buy from whomever is the cheapest at the time. I'm still averaging between 230-250 mpg regardless of brand.:dunno:

RX8-Frontier 04-24-2009 08:56 AM


Originally Posted by jsjjr (Post 2986206)
I'm just astonished. I have no loyalty to any (name) brand, but will buy from whomever is the cheapest at the time. I'm still averaging between 230-250 mpg regardless of brand.:dunno:

Ditto!!

AND, now that it's warmed back up some, I'm back in the 260-270 miles per tank range (20mpg, city driving, on average), even using Speedway (10% ethanol) fuel. I'm going on a trip to Atlanta this weekend, and I fully expect to be in the 300-320 miles per tank range off of any 'ol truck stop fuel along the way...

alnielsen 04-24-2009 09:11 AM

Formulations change on May 1st to reduce evaporation in warm weather. Look for a power/mileage change at that time.

AJ's Shinka 04-24-2009 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by RX8-Frontier (Post 2986227)
Ditto!!

AND, now that it's warmed back up some, I'm back in the 260-270 miles per tank range (20mpg, city driving, on average), even using Speedway (10% ethanol) fuel. I'm going on a trip to Atlanta this weekend, and I fully expect to be in the 300-320 miles per tank range off of any 'ol truck stop fuel along the way...

These are some awesome numbers, how are they getting these numbers? Do you guys shift at low rpms for example 3,000-4,000 rpm's because that is the only way I would get those numbers is if I grannied my car. I don't, I can't help it I get 220 miles per tank mixed driving city/hwy

jsjjr 04-24-2009 02:08 PM

Pretty much...I'm done driving like a bat out of hell. lol

Mazurfer 04-24-2009 07:08 PM


Originally Posted by onefatsurfer (Post 2986176)
BP is ethanol free?
I might have to switch brands... Too bad theres no BP near me

Only some selected BP's in Florida, I just happen to be near one and wanted to try it. I was 100% Shell V-Power until the Nitrogen, now......I just don't know. :uhh:

Razz1 04-24-2009 07:47 PM

Its a marketing gimmick.
All gasoline has nitrogen.
It's like tooth paste being a whitner.
Formula never changed.
Just the marketing and price increase.

StealthTL 04-24-2009 08:04 PM

Gasoline doesn't 'naturally' have any nitrogen compounds.....

Razz1 04-24-2009 08:49 PM

Gasolines contain small amounts less than .1% volume of compounds with sulfur, nitrogen and oxygen atoms in their structures (excluding added oxygenates).

Refinning destroys many nitrogen and sulfur containing compounds but some survive.

Therfore gasoline contains nitrogen compounds and Shell is using a marketing gimmick.
to promote their product.

http://www.chevron.com/products/ourf...w_complete.pdf

rx8cited 04-24-2009 08:57 PM

It's not just Nitrogen they've added. Nitrogen is a part of their "patented cleaning system designed to seek and destroy engine “gunk” (carbon deposits)" according to their claims.

"Nitrogen is a key element of the active cleaning molecule in the new fuel, making it significantly more stable at higher temperatures common in modern engines, such as direct fuel-injection gasoline engines."

Razz1 04-24-2009 09:04 PM


Originally Posted by rx8cited (Post 2987497)
It's not just Nitrogen they've added. Nitrogen is a part of their "patented cleaning system designed to seek and destroy engine “gunk” (carbon deposits)" according to their claims.

"Nitrogen is a key element of the active cleaning molecule in the new fuel, making it significantly more stable at higher temperatures common in modern engines, such as direct fuel-injection gasoline engines."

"patented cleaning system designed to seek and destroy engine “gunk” (carbon deposits)"

This is marketing hype

"Nitrogen is a key element of the active cleaning molecule in the new fuel, making it significantly more stable at higher temperatures common in modern engines, such as direct fuel-injection gasoline engines."

Take out new fuel. Nitrogen does have that affect and is present in all gasolines.

Once again marketing hype.


Have you ever taken advertising or marketing classes?

Rote8 04-25-2009 08:42 AM

Every gasoline brand is mixed with roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases, by the fuel injection system.

This mystery mixture is called AIR.

Razz1 04-25-2009 12:05 PM

Yes, that why someone asked earlier... Why would you add more nitrogen into the system when it comes out as NOx or No2 which they are trying to control for green house affect.

rx8cited 04-26-2009 11:37 AM

:confused: I'm surprised to see that Sunoco (USA) is not listed as a Top Tier Gasoline Retailer.

I was thinking about trying it - but :nono: after seeing this.

I expected to see BP / Amaco on that list too :confused:.

nycgps 04-26-2009 12:24 PM

to me, it doesnt fuxking matter.

with nyc slow ass traffic(even worst since bloomberg is in the office, thanks to his bike lane and not fixing roads policy) i get shitty mpg anyway.

on my way out there are mobil and bp. both mostly have the same price, but i usually fill up at night just to be sure i will fill up at the cheaper station (every penny counts!)

alnielsen 04-26-2009 04:36 PM


Originally Posted by rx8cited (Post 2989088)
:confused: I'm surprised to see that Sunoco (USA) is not listed as a Top Tier Gasoline Retailer.

I was thinking about trying it - but :nono: after seeing this.

I expected to see BP / Amaco on that list too :confused:.

I've said it before and I will say it again. Top Tier is a marketing gimmick. These companies pay to have their product tested and if it meets a certain criteria, then it gets put on the list. It will stay on the list as long as they pay the annual fee. BP/Amoco & Sunoco just decided not to pay to get their product on the list.

NotAPreppie 04-26-2009 07:32 PM


Originally Posted by rx8cited (Post 2989088)
:confused: I'm surprised to see that Sunoco (USA) is not listed as a Top Tier Gasoline Retailer.

I was thinking about trying it - but :nono: after seeing this.

I expected to see BP / Amaco on that list too :confused:.

Just nip on up to Canada to get your Sunoco since Sunoco Canada is on the list.

rx8cited 04-26-2009 10:51 PM

if (you don't give a f**k about Top Tier Gasoline)
proceed to reading the next post :Peace: ;
else
Top Tier Gasoline may be a marketing gimmick .... , it sure does not sound like it from what I've read below. Or maybe I've been just been sucked in :lol: .

Top Tier Detergent Gasoline - "In 1994 four auto manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota) recognized the gasoline marketers were not putting enough detergents in their gasoline. They also recognized the U.S. EPA was not mandating a high enough minimum standard of detergents. In fact, after the EPA set a minimum standard gasoline producers reduced the amount of detergents in their gas because the standard was so low.

As a result vehicle owners were suffering reduced engine power, reduced fuel efficiency,
increased driving upsets (rough idle, stalling and surge), decreased acceleration and increased emissions.

These four automakers decided to do something about this problem because they wanted vehicle owners to have a more pleasurable experience with the vehicles they manufactured. They created their own class of gasoline called 'Top Tier Detergent Gasoline', containing a higher level of detergents, meant to keep vehicle owners happier with better engine performance and wear."


So what, BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota created a "marketing gimmick" and are collecting payments from the gasoline companies that want pay them to be on the list ...... I doubt it.

A few references in this article supporting it.

about.com article

USA Today: Long article .... includes Ford, not in TT coalition, :stickpoke: recommends BP. :wtf: .

No signs of BP/Amaco or Sunoco in that September 2007 fool.com article's list.

I'm personally not going to take any chances and will avoid any gas that's not on the list unless it's an emergency, since there are so many locally available choices on the list.

Now if I could just find another good marketing deal to wean:40oz:me off my 5% off Shell gas credit card, I'd love to do a comparison test with a different Top Tier gas.
end

StealthTL 04-26-2009 11:08 PM

The test is real, the results are real, if you have the equipment you can prove it for yourself - how is this a 'gimmick'?

The long standing test for engine deposit control is the 'BMW' test - the intake valves are weighed, then run in a real engine for a long time under load, then re-weighed.

They must have gained 'less-than-x-milligrams' of gunk.

The new Shell gas will actually remove gunk from an already gunked up valve.......far exceeding the BMW requirements to pass the test.

Do you see any competitors saying 'taint so' or 'just a gimmick'? No, they have the equipment, they've done the comparison, they know the results and they are wishing it would go away.

(I have been refining oil, gasoline, diesel and jet fuel for about twenty five years and I would be more than happy to show anyone around my refinery if you are in the far North sometime.)

S

alnielsen 04-26-2009 11:20 PM

Top Tier is a marketing gimmick in that if your fuel meets certain requirements, you are allowed to join the consortium and use the Top Tier sticker on your pump. That dosn't mean that those that are not apart of the consortium don't meet the same requirements.

Quote from the USA Today article:
Bunk, say some. "I see these ads on TV where Shell says, 'We filled up with Shell and some other gasoline and saw a difference,' and I think it's a myth," says Thomas Darlington, engineer and consultant at Air Improvement Resource in Novi, Mich., and formerly at the EPA.

"Gasolines today are very, very clean from the standpoint of not forming engine deposits" because of the EPA and industry requirements, he argues. What does he buy? "I'm not brand-conscious. I go for price, as long as it doesn't have ethanol." He says ethanol cuts mileage 1% to 2% because it has a lower energy content than pure gasoline.

"I really look at these commercials and wonder, 'How do these guys justify this?' I don't see the benefits," says John Frala, who teaches auto mechanics at Rio Hondo College in Whittier, Calif. He says he's never seen a breakdown due to engine deposits.

"It's hype," says Dennis DeCota, executive director of the California Service Station and Automotive Repair Association. "It would be very hard to differentiate" among brands.


Top Tier is about additives in the fuel. All of the major brands have sufficient additives to keep the fuel system clean.

nycgps 04-27-2009 12:59 AM


Originally Posted by alnielsen (Post 2989899)
Top Tier is a marketing gimmick in that if your fuel meets certain requirements, you are allowed to join the consortium and use the Top Tier sticker on your pump. That dosn't mean that those that are not apart of the consortium don't meet the same requirements.

Quote from the USA Today article:
Bunk, say some. "I see these ads on TV where Shell says, 'We filled up with Shell and some other gasoline and saw a difference,' and I think it's a myth," says Thomas Darlington, engineer and consultant at Air Improvement Resource in Novi, Mich., and formerly at the EPA.

"Gasolines today are very, very clean from the standpoint of not forming engine deposits" because of the EPA and industry requirements, he argues. What does he buy? "I'm not brand-conscious. I go for price, as long as it doesn't have ethanol." He says ethanol cuts mileage 1% to 2% because it has a lower energy content than pure gasoline.

"I really look at these commercials and wonder, 'How do these guys justify this?' I don't see the benefits," says John Frala, who teaches auto mechanics at Rio Hondo College in Whittier, Calif. He says he's never seen a breakdown due to engine deposits.

"It's hype," says Dennis DeCota, executive director of the California Service Station and Automotive Repair Association. "It would be very hard to differentiate" among brands.


Top Tier is about additives in the fuel. All of the major brands have sufficient additives to keep the fuel system clean.

Major brands, maybe

but not so major, i dont think so

When it comes to cleaning agents in gasoline, fed requirements are kinda low. They cut it in 1/2 a while ago to save gas company cost isnt it?

LPCOKIE 04-27-2009 01:51 PM

does Shell working on carbon better (i basis this on others knowing more than i) out weight the 10% alcohol? i can get conoco 100% gas or shell with 10% alcohol.

rx8cited 04-27-2009 10:03 PM


Originally Posted by LPCOKIE (Post 2990883)
does Shell working on carbon better (i basis this on others knowing more than i) out weight the 10% alcohol? i can get conoco 100% gas or shell with 10% alcohol.

:confused: Are you asking about Shell with 10% ethanol vs Conoco w/o ethanol ...... I'd avoid the ethanol and go with Conoco if you're car does not show any preference.

renesisgenesis 04-29-2009 11:26 AM

I filled the tank with 92 octane v power nitrogen enriched.

Drove about 200 miles in one trip and still have a few gallons left. (light went on just as i got home.)

This 200 miles included probly an hour or so of hard driving.

So far I am feeling good about the fuel economy with this new fuel.

DeViLbOi 04-29-2009 11:31 AM

Im at 220 miles of city driving on Sunoco 94 and my light is still off.

4motionTT 05-02-2009 05:18 PM

I've ALWAYS preffered v-power even before i had the rx8 in much faster cars, now i have the 8 and i dont know if its the new formula or maybe my engine just doesn't make me happy but i get 11.5 MPG with it right now with nitrogen, and i would get 14.5 MPG before this formulation.....and only ONCE after a MAF cleaning i got 17.5 that one time.... so ive always gotten between 155-180 miles to the tank (13.5 gal) with shell

Valero 190 but rough idle
Exxon 210 but the car felt sluggs

04RX8man 05-02-2009 05:28 PM

78%Nitrogen in the Air that is taken into your motor to begin with! I've been using it since it came out and have no problems.....

TrochoidMagic 05-02-2009 05:34 PM

does shell wanna improve MPGs and save people gas money?

maybe they should put the nitrogen in tires instead...

shaunv74 05-06-2009 02:36 PM

I was getting about 18mpg will shell. I switched to AM/PM and immediately bumped up to 22 mpg. Cheaper and better mileage. Hmmm...:uhh:

Spinning Sushi 05-06-2009 02:38 PM

Yep... Anyone remember the SoCal Dyno with CHR at Neptune Speed last year? Well, guess what? I got the highest N/A non-AP dyno results on Arco. :)

shaunv74 05-06-2009 02:40 PM

Makes sense. Better mileage=more power. :)

Jedi54 05-06-2009 02:46 PM


Originally Posted by Renesis SE3P (Post 3007257)
Yep... Anyone remember the SoCal Dyno with CHR at Neptune Speed last year? Well, guess what? I got the highest N/A non-AP dyno results on Arco. :)

I remember! I organized and hosted the event.
However...none of those results were valid. The dyno was not giving accurate info.
your argument FAILS.


OH, and it's CRH, not CHR. ;)

Spinning Sushi 05-06-2009 02:55 PM


Originally Posted by Jedi54 (Post 3007275)
I remember! I organized and hosted the event.
However...none of those results were valid. The dyno was not giving accurate info.
your argument FAILS.


OH, and it's CRH, not CHR. ;)

Shh! Don't ruin my moment to shine!

nycgps 05-06-2009 03:03 PM

NYC must be selling garbage gas.


220 miles a tank ...

Razz1 05-06-2009 03:27 PM


Originally Posted by Jedi54 (Post 3007275)
I remember! I organized and hosted the event.
However...none of those results were valid. The dyno was not giving accurate info.
your argument FAILS.


OH, and it's CRH, not CHR. ;)

My God! The Dark side agrees with Jedi the knight.

At least until the new movie comes out...
Mu ha ha............. OBeeWan

robrecht 05-06-2009 05:22 PM


Originally Posted by nycgps (Post 3007312)
NYC must be selling garbage gas.


220 miles a tank ...

I got 21+ mpg on my last tank of Brooklyn Hess 87, and only about 65 miles of that was highway driving.

StealthTL 07-25-2009 05:53 PM

If you think Shell is just adding 'nitrogen' you are deluded (and not even listening to the ad.)

'Formula Shell' was based on a potassium compound, this new one is a nitrogen compound.
What part of this don't you get?

Just as an azide - C4 explosive, Amatol, TNT and most modern explosives are also based on nitrogen.........

S

shaunv74 07-25-2009 07:57 PM


Originally Posted by StealthTL (Post 3135570)
If you think Shell is just adding 'nitrogen' you are deluded (and not even listening to the ad.)

'Formula Shell' was based on a potassium compound, this new one is a nitrogen compound.
What part of this don't you get?

Just as an azide - C4 explosive, Amatol, TNT and most modern explosives are also based on nitrogen.........

S

Who are you flaming at from 2 months ago?;)

alnielsen 07-25-2009 09:23 PM


Originally Posted by shaunv74 (Post 3135649)
Who are you flaming at from 2 months ago?;)

I think the heat has gotten to him. He finally defrosted.:mdrmed:

nycgps 07-25-2009 10:29 PM

Holy !!!

STEALTH ! stop bringing up dead threads ! :lol:

StealthTL 07-25-2009 10:38 PM

Oh YEAH?

Well.....your momma.....

I know I am, but what are.........

S

nycgps 07-25-2009 10:45 PM

rofl !

Razz1 07-26-2009 10:28 PM

funny!

StealthTL 07-31-2009 02:06 PM

Just as an azide.....

I only re-opened this to make my pitiful chemical-geek joke about nitrogen compounds,

but I guess I'm the only one thought it was funny.....

S

God, I gotta getta life.

maskedferret 01-06-2010 11:21 PM

Yes, I know; 4 month revival wah wah. I feel like saying what I have to say here because there seems to be a trend of people believing that if Mazda says they haven't tested something and cannot recommend it, then it is bad. (e.g. Mazda not recommending this "special" Shell gas, ergo if car breaks Shell is liable -- this is what sparked me to reply)

Mazda's response is rather pragmatic; just like their stance on synthetic oils. "Blah blah we haven't thoroughly tested it yet (as if we plan to, ha!), so we cannot recommend it."

Saying that they CANNOT recommend it does not imply they recommend AGAINST it. Their wording of it is masking lack of knowledge -- it's a slicker way of saying "durr, we don't know". If the argument arises that the use of this gas (or synthetic oil) caused the catastrophic failure of an engine, then it is Mazda that will bear the burden of proof.

Disclaimer: I have not done a case study on the synthetic oil bit. If a warranty has been denied because of it for someone, I would be curious to know of it and the details of the case.


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