just to be certain here, so the only way i can find out what flash i have is to have the dealer check? if this is an annoying question, forgive me.

Look in the drivers front door area for the build date of your car-Anything after april of 04-you should be ok.

manufactured sept. 2003. any idea on the flash i might have?

rofl rx8bydocabe.

oh, Zoom, even so, i've read the stickies. still don't know what a Pflash does? i might have skipped over it, but i only found that Hymee program that they were talking about using a palm OS or linux vs windows. (cool by the way, check it out if you haven't).

even if mine IS built post april 04, should i get a pflash?

no the only real reason to get a flash is if you have a problem. the only thing we are CERTAIN that P does over N is change the way the aircon works. N may or may not cchange the way the car performs over M. but you have at least M so your all good. the next time you have a regular service you can ask them to update it. by then we might be on Q or R etc.

bydoc- you should have them make sure you are on M. just have them run your vin to make sure MSP04 is CLOSED for your car. If not they HAVE to do it according to Mazda.

word. perfect answer. i love these forums now. was flustered at the responses when i thread jacked this last guy's post. but dang man, i was a new user...as in, NOT familiar with these forums. thanx for the help zoom44.

The WDS screen will display which concerns are being addressed with the latest flash level but it doesn't say HOW those concerns/issues are being handled. I saw about a dozen concerns when my mechanic showed me the screen but I can't remember most of what it said.

CRH

you can flash yourself with the passthru equipment and a 1 day membership on mazdatech.com ($20)

charles i would bet that what you were seeing is all of the changes since the first flash level.

I can't believe I just read all 15 pages of this shit and the only thing I got out of it was that the AC gets disabled 1500 RPM later than normal with this new flash. You would think that this would hurt (and not help) maximum performance.

I am really satisfied with the n flash. I may just stay here until something really better is available
olddragger

it wasnt done for maximum performance it was done to help alleviate some of the poor ac cooling complaints

I thought they fixed ac issues with some amplifier. Regardless, this is another reason why I sure as hell don't want or need this flash. :)

I think that posts by Marietta8 and CRH tend to lend a little bit more to this flash than just the A/C cutoff. I myself noticed a change from M to N and then from N to P... My car has never felt faster, and definately more power in the low/mid range. I drive the N in the city, and a 600 mile road trip, and the same with P...it felt diffferent. At this point, with my feeling of increased performance, I am beginning to let go if my mileage concerns.

My car was previously suffer more from the power drop at about 6000-7000, and now it feels as though it continues to build power through to 7000, and starts to drop then....also, it seems to only do this in 1st and 2nd gears. I hit 3rd, and it pulls strong to redline.

Obviously, I cant confirm what the actual changes in the P flash are, but I feel there is more to it.

Anyone able to find out specifically what else the flash does?

Umm... I'm getting a DYNO on the 18th. Before an install of a flywheel.

Maybe I should get the P flash and then get another dyno to see the results.

You guys have to convince me first that it is worth while updating.

I have read at least one story mentioning that the author experienced a change after a few hundred miles and the engne began to run better. This story has been told by new owners who regarded it as a PCM programming that allowed for break-in time. This same story has been told by someone who recently had flash upgrades done. Now, my own engine is running better and I can't figure out why(?). After all that trouble, now the car just hauls off with 13.9's!. The nitrous doesn't have quite the punch that it did before but it doesn't make the scary noises it used to, either. I think I'll still have the MOP mod done but I am also wondering what the Hell is going on with my car. Taking a ride in Rotary IT's car was a good reminder of where my car is, in terms of performance, and where it has come from. I am now wondering if I have just been taking my own car for granted and getting used to it. I dunno.

CRH

!*%@$#!
 

:mad:

I took my car to Mazda of Oakland to get the N to P flash (& get the scratched front seatbacks fixed), and they told me they did it.

Well, my handy CanScan tells me that they were lying...I still have the N flash.

When I confronted my 'service advisor' about their fib, he said 'we can't flash the PCM unless there is a specific customer complaint that it addresses'. It must take all of, what, 2 minutes of a mechanic's time to do the PCM update? This tells me what customer satisfaction (and honesty) is worth to this sad lot.

Given that I don't like being lied to, AND think I'm entitled to get the most Mazda can give me from my 8, it is time to shop for a new dealership.

I think this question was already asked, but WHAT IS THE MAGIC COMPLAINT THAT WILL MAKE THE MAZDA DEALER COUGH UP THE CODE?

There are several but the best one is loss of power above 6,000 rpm's. That one is specifically listed in the MSP04 TSB.

CRH

yep, i hit em with a loss of power and they gave it to me like it was going out of style.

to add to the discussion, yes i have definitely felt more power in the 3-4k range in 5th and 6th gears, and the car seems much more willing to let loose. yesterday i chirped it into second with the dsc on, and i wasnt trying to, i did shift at redline, but mine never does that usually. i have noticed several smaller areas where there seems to be some gains in power, but nothing thats going to snap my neck with speed. the car seems a lot more fun to drive after the last flash.

anyone dynoed it yet?

Yup, see results in sig below. Dyno sheet is posted around here somewhere.

"bydoc- you should have them make sure you are on M. just have them run your vin to make sure MSP04 is CLOSED for your car. If not they HAVE to do it according to Mazda." by zoom 44

thanx zoom. just a couple of questions regarding this. what do you mean by having them make sure MSP04 is "CLOSED"? your caps are making me think i should be alarmed. and do you know if i can just have them do this over the phone? run my vin and be able to tell me that is.

MSP04 included mandatory flashing to at least M level. Mazda wants all 8s to at least this level. they were quite unhappy with the dealerships a little while ago when they realized they only had 60% completion. If they run your vin it will show them MSP04 along with the recalls etc. It will eitehr say open or closed. if its closed then you are at least on M and "okay". If it is open they have to flash your car to M or newer and since they will have updated their WDS recently then you will almost assuredly get N and if they are a good place you will get P.

you should be alarmed if you arent on M. after the first "round" when they reassessed their completion rate Dealers were given explicit instructions to contact folks who needed updating still and get them in. For your car not to have been done is complete lazyness or incompetence of the part of your regular service center.

excellent, im glad i wasnt just imagining those power gains stashed like easter eggs in the powerband. that dyno shows a very consistant trim in the A/F ratio.

thanks marietta!

Marietta your dyno's were done with aftermarket wheel/tire combo correct?

Correct. Weight diff of 5lbs per wheel. I wish I could have done a same day back to back test to determine gain % from wheels if any. The dyno owner did mention seeing small losses when some front drive cars (which shall remain nameless but their initials are H.O.N.D.A.) came in w/bigger flash wheel/tire combos. Have you done any comparisons?

204 vs 201 is not enough variance to prove anything when the tests are done on different days w/multiple changesmade to the car.you vcan have that much diference on back to back runs just because of changes in engine temp or fan placement.

While what you say is true, it does not negate the value of the data. True, if you were developing a race engine and wanted to see if a particular change made a difference you would try and dyno immediately and in a controlled environment.

We all drive in the real world. I personally do not know of any MAZDA dealerships with a dyno to do immediate before and after "P" runs. A car may make X power one day, and Y power another. As we all know, in the real world the the car and environmental conditions are always changing, so saying that data does not prove anything, while technically accurate, the tone implies that the data is invalid, which is not the case.

Just because you dyno one day at 205 does not mean you'll produce 205 the next day. Even if you did it back to back on a dyno, it does not mean you'll do it tomorrow on the street. It also does not mean you won't. The point is the data, and Charlie has plenty of data since his first dyno to his most recent, indicates his mods, flashes and baseline car combine to show significant improvements over time. Included in that data gathering is the "P". I'd wager Charlie is in the top 1% for total dyno runs in a street driven 8, certainly in the US and perhaps in the world. He makes changes and he runs to the dyno.

I think this practice of discarding or minimizing data simply because it is not produced under controlled laboratory conditions misses the forest for the trees.

No one can exactly reproduce the same results day in and day out. Even the guys with all the technical resources in the world can't do it. The purpose, as we all know is the big picture, not the granular single run.

You are right, it does not prove anything, it also does not disprove anything.

I'm not trying to be difficult or a PITA .. I'm just saying 99.9 % of us don't run to the dyno like Charlie does ... and we never will. Since his is the best, maybe only "P" dyno data we've got to date, let's just take it at face value and not over analyze it. It is a piece of data in a long line of datums he has gathered.

do they document an updated flash in the invoice if they did it, say after an oil change?

I love it!

I got the reflash yesterday and after 50 miles, I love it. It felt to have a better mid range just out the door, and all the driving (Houston rush hour trafic) was more relax? compliant? , i don't know, just better.

All is based on my butt-dyno. I must admit that even when I re-fill the washer fluid the car seems to run better, but it this case I do belive it runs better (besides placebo effects).

ok, i just talked over the phone to a mazda service manager, and he told me he couldn't tell me what flash i'm running just by giving him my vin number. he told me that i would have to bring my car in to hook it up to some type of computer to be able to tell. is that true?

i'm bringing my car in next week for them to check. now what do i have to tell them to convince them to update to the most recent flash? and how the hell will i know if they did actually reflash instead of B.S. me and say they did?

i dont want to be a pita either. i was going from teh numbers at face value without knowing the history behind them. you have to admit we see that kind of stuff all the time and its hard not to question the data. thanks. and with a name like Charlie i think i can give him the benefit of the doubt.

best regards

charlie:)

bydoc- tell them they certainly can do so. all they have to do is look up your service history with a vin inquiry like they were looking for recalls. if the person you are talking to insists they cant do that either get his manager of get them to call the tech line and be given lessons on how to do it. if they still cant/wont then get on the phone to Mazda customer assisstance on your cell phone while you are still there 1 800 222 5500. tell them what is going on and ask them to get someone to call the dealership and explain to them how to do their job. if that doesnt work find anothr dealer.

Yes, it's true they have to query your ECU to see what software you currently have. If you're not up to at least M they should reflash you, doubtless to the most current, P. If you have no problems with M or N, maybe you don't want P anyway. If they say they reflashed and don't do it, the next query will call their bluff.

but they can ascertain that he is at least on M by checking if MSP04 is closed in the system. and they can also see if he is at a higher level then M by looking at the warrenty claims to see if a flash has been done since the MSP04 flash.

i just talked to another service manager, she said that i've had it reflashed twice according to the vin i gave her over the phone, but she wouldn't be able to tell me which flash i'm currently running via that info.
question, if i do bring it in for them to check which flash i have, will they charge me?

they might but i havent heard of anyone still under warrenty being charged.

Well because of your build date the first would have been the MSP04 M flash. But in order for them to do another flash the WDS had to have told them there was an update available. So that must have been at least when N was available. without hooking up to the wds or a canscan or hymee scanalyser we wont know exactly but i think its a good guess to say you are on N. so you are good to go.

My service manager told me that Mazda has a complete online history of everything the dealership has ever done to my vehicle. Mazda Tech Line can look everything up. If you've never been flashed, they should have known the version by the build date. Maybe the info is too hard to get through Mazda Tech Line, so he gave you the answer that was easier for him.

khoney that situation has been rectified now. we're pretty certain what level he is on.

To some extent I agree with you Zoom, however a dyno jet dyno has a pretty accurate weather station built in that does correct for atmospheric conditions and I can say with some certainty that my readings are repeatable each time, everytime unless something has changed on the car. My RX7 was aprime example. I had tuned the engine (MoTeC M4 Pro) in December and made no changes after that. A friend visited in July and had not been to the dyno before
and wanted to see the car in action. We went, strapped the car down, made 3 pulls and the numbers were within 10ths of where it was in December.

I always test with the same tire pressures and strap down the same way each time for consistency as well as fan placement.

You really should dyno your own car if possible to see where you are and where you are going. I am certainly proud that I have a really strong car but I am truly more interested in whether the numbers go up or down so as to know whether changes were good, bad, or the same. With the small gains that are possible on the 8 as compared to previous rotary powered cars, I do believe that the few hp and lbft of torque are legit. If the dyno were in my shop the tests would be more back to back and controlled but it's not so I have to go when I can to test.

Charlie Shatzen
Mazcare Inc

i had not read many of your previous post but when derwankel let me in on some things i had this to say-

so i understand more now and i have a better appreciation for your results:) i did take the oppurtunity to dyno my car. several things went wrong during the dyno which gave me reason not to trust the results. however the graph is telling- its quite obvious that one of the things that went wrong is that my VDI did not open. the 30hp drop where it should have opened and no recovery, just a fairly flat line from there, made it obvious.

What did you do to fix the vdi not opening and what caused it?

what kind of dyno too?

dynojet dyno. havent done anything. the car was hot that night. it might have been heat related. since i realized what the issue is/was i havent had much oppurtunity to run it to see if it is a recurring problem or not. im not to concerned as you can tell. there is very few reasons for it not to open so it wont be difficult to correct when i have the time IF it happens again.

Zoom44,

Would it be safe to say, that if the 'P' is suppose to address the AC issues, then the older TSB where they change the amplifier did not fix the problem? Or was this another issue introduced through the 'M' and/or 'N'?

I was wondering... do you have to pay to get a Flash upgrade done? Or can I just go to a Mazda dealership and ask for a flash ECU upgrade?

I dun even know what a flash is...

The flash is free under warrenty.

Oh, and I was wondering... if I wanted to get the most current flash, do I HAVE to go to the dealership I bought it at?

it can be any dealership, but they are not going to just give you a flash upon request.

Oh.... really? How can I get a flash upgrade then?