shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Yea That was the plan. I hadn't thought about the atf but ill look into that. Allot of atf fluids and repaid fluids have similar properties of assembly lubes.

Well I'll go the expensive route with pro assembly lubes and let you all know how it goes. parts got delayed should be here Tuesday.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

You're overthinking this. You need a turkey baster filled with vaseline, to hold the coolant seals in the rotor housings. You can use the hylomar that atkins sells, but it is messier and I never liked it. It is a different formulation than the old style hylomar that used to be sold by permatex, which I did like.

Then the only other thing you need is a LITTLE motor oil for the bearings and oil control rings. Once the block is built and tensioned down, you'll inject a little motor motor oil into the chambers to initially build compression, and once the engine is running, the OMP/premix will continue that job from there on out.

YOU DO NOT NEED ANY OTHER LUBRICATION FOR STARTUP. Anything more is just overkill and a waste of money. Too much lubrication during the building process can actually hurt you...if that **** gets all over everything and gets onto the coolant seals by mistake, you can wind up with a non-sealing issue. In this case, less is more...lube the bearings with motor oil and let that be it.

I've only built a few HUNDRED rotary engines with this procedure...

ASH8

Good on you Shady...Great Work.

In my time all we would use was Vaseline for ALL Housing Seals (O Rings), and plain old engine oil for everything else internal.

Don't forget some Silicone Sealant for your Oil Pan.

I am surprised no one has asked or looked closely at your Rotor and Stationary Gear Bearings.
I think you said this engine was re-built before, I guess it has done about 50 K on it? (re-build).

From what I can see the Rotor Bearings look OK...Stationary Bearings?

What Engine Oil were you using again?..10W30 (Dino)?

ASH8

There is some good info here too..don't know if you already have it..
http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.com/

rotarygod

I personally wouldn't use a rotor housing that has any chrome flaking on it. Yes they are expensive and yes even a new one will ultimately start to flake again. However if it takes another 50K-60K miles for it to begin again, imagine how much more flaking the already flaked housing would have in the same time span! If it costs you $4K to rebuild an engine PROPERLY then that's what it takes. If you try to stick to a cheap budget, you'll end up rebuilding it again sooner which is ultimately going to cost you more. Do it right or do it again! On top of that you won't make the power of a properly done engine. So yes $4K is worth another 50K-100K miles. Especially if it means the engine will last longer than a rebuild that took shortcuts and makes a bit more power while doing it. With a worn housing, your "new" engine isn't starting life at mile 0. It is effectively continuing right where you left off. You've replaced some parts but everything is a system and only as good as your weakest link. If your engine only gets you to 50K, something is wrong. For the S1 Renesis engines, just premix and be good about maintenance. It'll be fine.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Thanks man Appreciate the calm down pep talk! haha

The bearings looked fine to me.

The e-shaft had some strange marks on it but nothing to severe.

No clue on the rebuild or reman. I bought the car with 96k and it now has 124k.

I've been using 10w30 dino since I've owned the car.

Ive inspected and cleaned pretty much everything it all looks within spec.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Well I had low compression and $1500 saved...

So given my options I made the best choice I could have.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Yea I had a look at those along with the mazdatrix rebuild DVD great info.

ASH8

Ideally, I have to agree with RG about the Rotor Housing(s), but is is another 1400 bucks.

Any Rotor Housing that has Chrome Plating coming off or flaking is not within Factory Spec.

If you can't afford it, then you have little option, but it is a compromise.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

From what I understand chrome flaking up to 3mm in diameter is still within spec and will be used in a reman. But I could be wrong.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

Many factory engines are lasting less than 50k...and that was with all new parts. How can you expect a rebuild with some used part content to outlast it given the same conditions? The platform itself is obviously flawed.

IF you believe that housings with any chrome flaking at all are not within mazda spec for reuse, you obviously havent taken apart many mazda reman blocks.

paulmasoner

iTrader: (1)

i think that is one of a couple of main things to address with a new motor for many

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

The fact of the matter is I will not be buying new housing. I wouldn't recommend someone doing that if they were in my shoes either.

So we can just stop talking about it.

I know all of you have your own recommendations and I appreciate that but were kind of beating the dead topic with a stick at this point.

Ill look forward to sharing my compression numbers with you all.

P.S. Thank you RR for the neutral fact based feedback throughout the whole process, it helps allot. If I ever run into some money I'll throw some your way.

mike[piston eater]

iTrader: (3)

so ur using fishsauce as assembly lube?


thats conveniant

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

did the engine spontaneously explode or what?
no updates in a week

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Im in Canada!!

We will be rebuilding this weekend.

and the rest of the crap I should get over the next 3 weeks for the actual install.

UrbanOcho

iTrader: (2)

wtf shady, you have to get it rebuilt up there?

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

no im up here for workish stuff.

rotaryPilot

So the question is ,,,,,why this chrome flaking is happening to our housings after some certain milage ???? Improper lubrication ? Improper material used in housing ? Too stiff apex seals’ springs ????

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

From what I gather its just a rotary thing... Chrome Is a shitty solution for a huge problem.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (3)

If you are familiar at all with the history of the rotary you are aware that they had developmental issues to begin with, regarding the seals wearing out too fast, and the housings getting wear and chatter on them. Based on current manufacturing materials and procedures, there is apparently a balance required with this engine, where the seal and the housing must both wear at some rate, so that neither is too hard.

Engines have been built with modified coatings on the housing such as cermet (similar to ceramic) (by myself and others) and those coatings have not lived up to expectations. Much more commonly, other apex seals have been produced claiming to be harder to break or unbreakable. Then there are some apex seals that are known to be softer than stock (hurley).

The engines built with the soft seals don't last long at all...the seals break very easily even in a non turbo application, and you can forget about boost or competition. With the engines that I built utilizing the harder coating on the rotor housings, I also found that the apex seals wore at an accelerated rate...as much as 10 times more than normal per mileage. This resulted in an engine that lost compression and had to be taken out of service far earlier than it should have.

There have also been engines built by myself and others with "harder" or "unbreakable" apex seals on stock housings. Here again we run into a decreased longevity issue caused by one surface being drastically harder than the other. IN these cases, the seals did not wear down prematurely and they did not break...true to their advertisements. However, they did cause a LOT of grooving and scarring on the rotor housing surface to the point that they were no longer useable. In a running engine, the wear got to the point that compression was lost because of the terrible sealing surface, so although there was no seal breakage or catastrophic failure, the engine still had to be removed from service and rebuilt.

So what I've taken from this is that to a certain degree, the seals and housings are designed to wear together, and that throwing that balance off by too much would result in even more decrease in longevity even though the intention was the opposite.

rotaryPilot

^ thanks....Great answer !!!!

ASH8

Frankly I could not agree more with RR on the wearing Apex Seals and Housings..

Mazda have been manufacturing and designing of Various Materials and Sizes over 40 years, IMO they have a pretty good set up or combo at the moment.

THE issue concerning Housing Wear and Apex Seal Wear has been LUBRICATION, just not enough oil and next to NO oil in the middle of the Apex Seal.(Series 1 RX-8).

If you get the two piece Apex Seal wearing unevenly the alignment (for want of a better word) between the seals can occur, a cutting into the edge of the Rotor Housings.

Carbon is also an issue to jammed or locked Apex Seals.

Probably the best Apex Seal which took care of the Rotor Housing Surface was the old thick carbon Apex Seals in the 10A's and up to 1972 12A's, but these would wear out prematurely, we would see about 35,000 miles if you were lucky, but then you would see coolant entry before a compression issue...and Carbon lock which would generally be helped by ATF down the carby.

The 13B Renesis has not changed that much really than from the 1985 FC, apart from the obvious exhaust porting...there are far more FC and FD parts in a Renesis than exclusive Renesis parts.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Alright well my rebuild kit still hasn't arrived...

I'm hoping it shows up today so i can get he core reassembled over the weekend...

I'm waiting on funds for a waterpump and flywheel I should have that money by next week. I also have to replace the trans seals (front, rear) so the rebuild should be finished by memorial day!

P.S. I'm still not getting housing's but Dewitt racing has OEM new renesis housings for $575. Just in case anyone ever needs them. That's the lowest price I could find anywhere.

rotarygod

My standards are higher than that and I wouldn't have my name associated with any engine rebuilt to any standard that says any level of flaking is acceptable. Others will of course and that's their choice, but those engines will never be as good as one up to my standards. Then again I also believe in paying what it takes to do something properly as no short cut in engine building when it comes solely for cost savings is good, advisable or in the long run worth the small savings. Ironically enough in the long run they typically end up costing more. If Mazda wants to rebuild engines that way then so be it. I'm not buying them though. I never had and never will. Keep in mind they are gambling with the fact that most people won't keep their car as long as the engine will last. That's not the point for me though. For me it's about getting the most out of the engine and that isn't going to happen with one with flaking.

The one definite advise I can give on materials chosen when building engines has already been stated. I will not use an internal ceramic coating from anyone. I also wouldn't personally use aftermarket seals. Mazda apex seals are the only ones I'd personally use unless of course the Ianetti ceramics could be justified and then afforded. Aside from that good old Mazda parts seem to be the best.