Re: Quick Question regarding purchase
 

I already started a poll on this:

Would you have preordered at 220hp?

As of this posting, 67.13%, around two-thirds have indicated they would not have preordered a $30,000, 220 hp RX-8.

Sounds very bad to me.

Why cant the RX8 match the smaller capacity S2000 which puts out well over 200rwhp from only "240bhp" ?

I will definatley wait a fair while till this issue gets clarified before I think about the RX8, I love the car but that is alot less power than claimed ?

I don't know if this will help anyone, but FEED did dyno their RX8. The article didn't show any scales on their dyno results, but apparently they didn't raise any issue about a lack of HP problem. I can't read Japanese, but I wonder if that article raises any issues?

The following is the article I am referring to:
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?threadid=6259

The article says that they were able to get 12ps from an exhaust upgrade. Heck they even have pictures of their RX8 on a dyno.

Magic8

Edit
I just read the article more closely, they did mention 213.8 ps. I am guessing this figure was after the exhaust upgrade. The HP was mentions on the second page in the paragraph next to the dyno graph.

Well 213-12 = 201 so sounds about right for the 247bhp car?

201ps * 0.98632bhp/ps = 198.2503bhp

That's a bit far from 247bhp, no?

My take on the whole lack of hp thing is that Mazda is running it rich on the high rpms until it's first or second scheduled maintenance, where they'll reprogram the ecu's fuel maps. It's possible they are still working on finding the optimal map, taking the break-in into consideration. Either way, the most we'll hear is that the car gains more hp the more miles you put on it. Someone should be sure to dyno before and after scheduled maintenance.

My basis for this theory is Paul Yaw's findings, that it runs "pig-rich by the time it reaches 8,000 rpm." It'd be nice to dyno while tracking air flow and F/A ratio by rpm, though, just to see what the F/A maps look like.

BTW, I don't actually know anything. I've been reading this board and various articles, and things seem to fit together, so I decided to put my thoughts forward.

lol, thats a lot like me...

in another thread BOOSTD7 found out that the engine has no problem putting out the 250 in the mazda racing series. so, like he pointed out, it is not related to the engine and is in all likelyhood an ECU "problem"

i think it is most likely fuel maps, like many have said

What are fuel maps..could you explain them please.

thanks P00man

i dunno what they would be exactly but from what i can gather...

they are "maps" if you would, that the ECU uses to regulate the Air/Fuel mixture in the engine which is developed to acheive a certain goal, say maximum power or maximum efficiency or what have you, which would be determined by R&D specialists and then given to the programmers to code for

Are you sure the Star Mazda Series use the exact same configuration? Exact same intake manifold? Exact same throttle body? etc. It might be only the ECU, it might be something in addition too. We'll have to wait and see what happens. At this flow of dyno charts Mazda should answer soon

Actually, now in skeptic mode, I'm a little curious: Paul Yaw, I was wondering how you discovered it was running rich at 8000 rpms; did you measure it yourself, or did you get that information elsewhere?

Thanks.

dude, you can see that from the first dyno plot here (it was a Dynojet, had the Lamba pick up), where it was running really rich in the upper half of the rpm band.

edit: bam, first page of this thread, second post (1stRX-8's dyno plot).

A/F ratios are >13:1 after about 5.25k rpm

Woops. It sort of got lost after reading so many posts on this subject. Thanks.

The s2000 uses CV joints insted of u-joints on the drive shaft, making it more efficent.

Actually, I believe the one-piece carbon fiber drive shaft used on the 8 to be more efficient. This is only my opinion as I don't really know anything about the efficiencies of either one.

So.... what's going on with the power issue now? Still waiting for Mazda to answer to the inquiries or just give up, believe the 247hp and brush the dyno data aside?

Unlike you Skyline, we can enjoy our cars even if numbers don't make us the best in some category.

It will be resolved when it's resolved. Since you're not doing any detective work about this, nor do you have any vested interest, please just wait for an answer like we all are. Not like it makes a difference to you anyway.

Unlike you Hercules, most owners and potential buyers do care about Mazda's claim since nobody should get a 215hp car when they paid for a 250hp sport car. If you really don't care, then keep dreaming~

True.. we all care.. owners or not.. If somehow someway we were shortchanged, intentional or not, we will find out eventually. Sooner the better. I just hope for the best..

As we know, Herc has a way of making things sound snappish, I'm sure he didnt mean it.. We love him that way :D

I promised myself not to get in this thread, but I couldnt resist. I just want a peaceful resolution to this issue, not petty lashing at each other.

Hey, if it's below their published specs then I know I'll be compensated for it in some way.. so I'm not worrying terribly.

Mazda's current stance on hp issue
 

Sorry if someone else has posted something similar. I have been out of town at a family members funeral.

I emailed Mazda last week and they replied with the following...


Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate
the opportunity to respond to you.

In regards to your question on the horsepower in the RX8, Mazda is
aware of what has been posted on the RX-8 Forum and we are currently
looking into the matter. However, we stand by the current stated power
levels: 247hp for the manual transmission cars and 207hp for the
automatic cars.


I asked for further explaination but did not receive any.

Not to ask a stupid question (heck, all my questions seem stupid I guess)- but exaclty who has contacted Mazda about this? And who in the Mazda USA organization did they contact? Just curious.

Also, did the people running the dyno verify that the throttle was reaching WOT? I hear the floor mats ride up sometimes.:p

No no, you ASSUME you will be compensated for it. If everyone who owns a RX-8 deals with the power issue the same way as you do*, Mazda won't have to do a damn thing, since everyone is already happy. What's up with the compensation? It's not about screwing up and then having to make up for it through bribes. Like I said, you guys need to speak up, start e-mailing media and contact Mazda USA regarding this issue to get a quick resolution. If I was in your shoes, I would rather sell the car back because it's more about faith than 'how much discount I get per hp that's missing)

*Judging by your posts, it seems that you don't care about the power loss since the car is fun to drive. This sit back and relax attitude won't motivate Mazda to solve any problems anytime soon. I assume you paid the full MSRP for your RX-8, so like everyone else, you deserve what was promised to you by a manufacturer. No matter how cool you try to act and how you try to justify 'I don't need all 250hp'; it's not a matter of what you are willing to live for, it's about what was promised to you and the failure to deliver on that promise.

It's not a "floor mat wot" problem.. :p There have been at least 4 or 5 dynos of different cars with various miles on the odo. Combine those results with 15 sec plus 1/4 mile times for the 247hp 6MT car and obviously there is some power missing at the top end. Look at the dyno graphs in the R&D thread in the general section. The torque seems to "disappear" around 6500rpm and thus hp is affected.

For a little perspective:

The WRX is rated at 227, puts down ~160-170 to the wheel, 60-70 hp loss. We have AWD to deal with, so ~25% loss makes sense for us. Haven't seen a 2WD manual with more than 15% loss.

A/F stock for the WRX was below 10:1! Tuned, it sits around 11:1. With water injection, we barely hit 12.5:1. Yea, I know completely different setups, but food for thought.

Our ECU is very adaptive with the ignition timing and A/F - After an ECU reset, letting the car run at mild load around 4000 rpm for 20 seconds will change the dyno results by 10 hp. The ECU has an ignition multplier it uses to do crude tuning (in addition to fine tuning by rpm). Jsut letting the ECU change that multiplier under light load for a short time gives 10 hp.

There are also high and low detonation fuel maps. changing from one to another changes A/F by about a point (10:1 to 11:1).

Tom

This may be nothing and almost certainly was taken into account when the various cars were dynoed but on page 5-4 of the owners' manual it states:

You are mistaken I think. People are NOT saying they are going to ignore it and not care. Look at the amount of research done on these forums so far. DO you honestly think this will stay unresolved? As soon as all this issue gets published in some Mag 3 months from now it's going to be a huge deal and Mazda will lose a lot more than a couple hundred customers.

I think people need to relax and continue to follow the issue. But freaking out and getting pissed, etc is not the way. Also, from your email it seems you do not have one of the cars, so I dont think you can really comment on what it's worth to each person individually, and how important the missing power is. For example, I do not give a rats ass about it. If mazda never ever compensates me in any way for this missing power, it does not matter to me. I drove the car and judged it was worth the money as I tested it. Wether this was the published numbers or not is insignificant to me as the car feels fine. Now if it was something serious that would affect my enjoyment of the car, that would be another issue. But as it is the car behaves exactly how I felt it when I tested it and I thought that car was worth the money. if the numbers dont match up, it's penis measuring on a grand scale and I dont care about it.

If you don't give a rats ass about the horsepower issue, then doesn't that mean you don't care? If you don't even care about compensations, then in your opinion the power issue isn't even worth fighting for. If nobody cares about missing 30-40hp from a sport car, then it's just one more thing Mazda can get away with while consumers suffer. If early owners and potential buyers with the knowledge of power deficit do not speak up, then future consumers suffer as a consequences.

You say magazine published issues will make a big deal out of the situation forcing Mazda to address the problem... sure~ but if none of the owners speak up about the problem, how would the magazines and media know the problem even exists?

where do you get 30 or 40 hp from skyline,did you skip math class or something?the car is supposed to be around 204 t0 207 at the wheels.last dyno was 189.7,lets just go low at 189. 207 minus 189 = 18hp,not 30 or 40.im not trying to rile your feathers here but if your going to post about this issue get your facts stright.

And you need to actually read what I post rather than interpret something from it when you have no idea who I am. Dont you think there's plenty of noise being generated here already? There's been enough of a rucus that if you email mazda they actually know about all the posts on the forum? They are aware we know and we are waiting for a reply. They know it wont be too long before someone gets pissed and sue's. Simple. I dont give a rats ass because I already know it will be resolved. Is that easier for ya?

Maybe if you tried going out for a relaxing drive in your favorite car you wont be so stressed.

It's not that I don't care about the horsepower issue... I do.

However, it's a near guarantee that if the car winds up being say, 210 horsepower and they cannot remedy that, then Mazda will step up and refund the price of the car because they did not offer a car that suits the price of the $31,100 that mine is retailing for.

If they don't want to refund it, then I am sure there will be a long line of lawsuits on Mazda and it won't take long for them to change their tune. I will be in line for that as well, though I think it will not come to that.

What I fail to realize is this... if I can hand time my car to get 6 seconds on the dash to 60, and computer car mapping programs tend to agree that a 5.9-6.0 second sprint to 60 is fitting for a car with the gearing ratios, weight, horsepower and torque of the RX-8, then why is everybody complaining? If you can trust the results of the CarStats type programs that are very accurate in estimating times with other cars and their horsepower, why not with the RX-8? It just seems rather ludicrus.

That said, I think the issue is a non-issue to say the least. And if it *is* an issue, it will work itself out.

I'm not going to cry like a little baby and whine about it, because it's already been done by so many others. I don't feel the need to 'express myself' because it's been done and Mazda has heard us already. Now we just need to be patient and see what results are to come. I think Skyline, if the G35C had a power deficiency on PAPER, and not in actuality... you'd be crying about it right away and really loud; your words alone here have shown that you care very little for the characteristics of a car that are not judged on paper... you want the car that's the best on paper.

You have it. Now go drive it and get lost.

LOL! I'm pretty new to this forum, but I have to say that I really like Herc's demeanor.:p

On the other hand, after reading all of the posts in this section, and all of the arguements one way or the other, I just don't get the big deal anyways.

Let's see:
1) Those of us who bought an RX-8 for one reason or another preferred it over anything else out there that we could buy.

2) The car apparently to all of us was a blast to drive until this issue with ECUMAPRWHPWOT thingamabob stuff started coming out on green engine dynos, and now many of us either are looking for buybacks or lawsuits.

3) It is very obvious that other potential buyers are looking at this forum before purchasing whatever car they choose to own (no wonder that since 07/24/03 I am still the ONLY RX-8 seen on the road so far in the Memphis, TN area).

I believe that I have to concur with many others when I say that this "missing HP" situation will be rectified in time. All I see it doing in the present is mentally ruining a great driving experience IMHO. If Mazda comes back with a statement that the HP is not there, then cross the bridge when we (the owners) get to it. If the car, through a series of scheduled service visits recovers more and more HP, then great. If the ECU suddenly changes and develops a treasure trove of power, then we owners will be happy indeed, and other car owners will be scrambling around trying to justify why they bought whatever other car that they purchased. In either case, I feel that having 247 hp in a lightweight four-door, four seated sedan/sportscar hybrid with all of the characteristics of a "true sportscar" sold me because it gave me the best of both worlds as no other car could in fitting my personality. I'm willing to be patient and enjoy my ride rather than sit around sick of paying a monthly note on a car that only makes me upset so far "in theory" and then only expecting to be happy after about 20,000 miles. Life is too short for such crap.

And people think I'm abrasive... :D

Geez, still bitter after all this time eh~ :D

K&N
 

Check out this thread!

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8903

What does this tell us about A/F ratio and/or timing??

The only dealer based rotary mechanic I trust has contacted the "Project Manager" for the RX-8. I don't know what that really means but he did tell the guy the hp issue and the response was that he has not seen a car that makes more than 190 rwhp. I told him that mine is around 180 and he had no response. He [Mazda corporate] did say that the drivetrain should acount for 20% in the same breath.

Lets summerize:

247hp - 20%loss = 198hp [a little less than the 205 to 210 I expected- 20% still excessive]

"He has never seen one develop more than 190 at the wheels"
190rwhp would represent a 23% drivetrain loss [excessive I think].

The average of 4 dyno pulls on my car was 180hp. This, as we all know, is a 27% loss.

Basically, Mazda is avoiding this one. They know that it will be a while before someone goes to the trouble to pull one, build a fixture, and put it on an engine dyno for ore proper testing. They are buying time. The service guy [who is sharper than average] reminided me that the 2nd and 3rd gen 7's had a mileage switch at about 20k miles to protect Mazda from excessive warranty claims - the warranties were 36k if I remember correctly. That's a different thread. He called it [the mileage switch] a fuse. When I asked what that meant, he told me that the circuit worked by the ECU measuring miles, at the 20k mark it would overload the fuse to break it. When the ECU is powered on with the open fuse it uses a totally different fuel map. I had assumed it was more digital than that. If it is merely a fuse, can we open it ourselves? My guess is that it is a tiny surface mount unit that looks like a capacitor or resistor and is probably covered in epoxy to prevent tampering.

He said he will continue to dig up an answer about the mileage switch possibility on the RX-8, he did not know if it existed. He did say it would very un-like Mazda to NOT to have one but the exact implimentation could be very different from previous models.

Can anyone volunteer to drive constantly for 20k miles to see what happens? I would do it if I could get 8 weeks vacation from work.

It sounds like all this coming down to the warranty dept. saving bucks. Understandable, but very annoying that nobody is talking.

I have an appointment tomorrow with a fairly high ranking Mazda guy to pick his brain. Is anyone else digging into Mazda? Have I missed any good threads?

actually Paul Yaw has already pulled the engine and mounted it for engine testing. he has as of yet not responded with his dyno runs with charts etc. but you can find his remarks here.

maybe if enough of us call mazda customer service they will relize they have a problem. they dont seem to realize it is a huge issue with us. so maybe if everybody called so they get lots of complaints they will look into it more.

OK, I've only read up to pg 9 of this thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything...

After reading PY's reassuring posts about the ECU, I felt a bit more at ease. But then I got to thinking..."If it's just a matter of a switch at x amount of miles, how come Mazda hasn't already come out and said so?" My reasoning goes further in that Mazda's bound to be aware of the information that is being spread on this board (based on the testimonials that you guys offer regarding calling/writing representatives). And if a simple explanation concerning the ECU (assuming it is in fact the culprit) would calm us down....why the silent treatment?

If they really did get 247hp, that is to say, they're telling the truth, and not just making this up...wouldn't Mazda have enough knowledge about the ECU or amount of miles required to hit full potential? Then, they could offer a disclaimer that you need 20k miles or so to reach it. Are they choosing not to say anything for fear that it will deter prospective buyers? To me, that's the only explanation for no response on Mazda's behalf. Otherwise, I'm beginning to doubt this theory. Unfortunately, I cannot offer any speculation of my own...just simply my concern. :(

At this point, I know most of us are just asking for SOME sort of explanation. ie "Sorry, we overrated the power." or "Yeah, log 20,000 miles and you're all set." Either way, I love the car. That won't change. What might, is my patience and the way I feel about Mazda as I await a response.

SB those are my sentiments exactly. I posted Mazda's reply to my question about this. I provided links to all of the posts on the forums and also the dyno charts. They are still claiming 247.

However they did not respond to my question about the ECU switch over. I have emailed them again and will be calling Customer Service later this morning. I don't have my RX-8 yet, I am supposed to pick it up in two weeks, and am holding off until I receive a statement from Mazda that I trust. My dealer is also an infiniti dealer and the G35 SC is looking better the longer this goes on.

When the 2001 Miata came out it also had an over-rated hp rating. They made an error with the new variable valve timing engine as to its hp as delivered in the US. Mazda offered all who purchased these cars, in the USA, to buy the car back or $500.

I know that Mazda is aware of this thread and is looking into the issue. I can only imagine that they will have an answer soon.

I would like to see the data posted from someone who has pulled the engine and ran it on a dyno. This would tell us how close the motor is to the 247hp at the crank, which is where Mazda measures it.

Don't be shy about calling the customer service line and letting them know how you feel about this issue.

Who's the guy over in the Mazdaspeed section that has pulled the Renesis lump from his RX-8 and put the 20B engine in?

Can he not take his Renesis and put it on an engine bench dyno to see what power it is producing? Least that would take all the TC/DSP and drivetrain losses out of the equation and we could see what power it truely is putting out?


-andy-

He'd need the full intake and exhaust systems, ECU, O2 sensors, wiring loom,..... It's not like the old days of carbs and open headers.

the 2nd gen literally has a microswitch and a little cam on the odometer. as far as we know all it does is turn on part of the air control valve. although it is FACT that nobody has ever checked to see what it does, just endless speculation

mike

I find that quite interesting. Maybe he has Mazda sponsorship and he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him.

I don't think so but hey... stranger things have happened :)

Anyhoo...time will tell. I'm getting nearer and nearer to the 5000 mile mark (1700 miles so far) and when I get to 4000, I'll go get my car dynoed too. Then we can just write a big letter to Mazda asking for some money back or a fix for the cars.

Elliot wrote:
The HP issues with the 2001 Miata was not as significant as the RX-8 appears to be. With the Miata, the rated HP was around 155 and the real world ended up being around 142.

But yet, as Elliot states, Mazda offered to BUY BACK those '01 Miatas (purchased before March 2001). In lieu of the buy back, owners could opt for a $500 prepaid credit card AND free scheduled maintenance for something like 3 years or 36K miles.

If the RX-8 horsepower is as seriously difficent as it appears it might be, Mazda should be offering a lot more than $500 and free maintenance.

Mark

Mark, this is why if there is a power deficit, I'm not really worried either way.

If they can't fix it (and I'm happy with the power as it is), then they will offer me something in exchange for it and a lowered price or free maintenence or something... that will be nice.

And if they don't? If they insist there is no such thing as power deficit and the high rpm power fall off is 'just the way it is.' The dyno 35% power loss is perfectly normal for their new platform and engine is A-ok. Then what?

I agree. IF it turns out that the HP can't be "recovered", then a good figure would be that the refund should be the same as the percentage of HP lost. So if we are missing 10% of our HP, then 10% refund back to you would be more fair. Almost everyone would like to have the HP's instead of a refund, but something like $3k + back to you would heal some wounds.

IMO, they'll "find" the missing hp's.

Until recently, my wife and I considered ourselves Mazda enthusiasts. With the exception of a few years here and there, we've had Mazda vehicles in our garage since 1979. While we've never felt Mazda vehicles had the same reliability of, say, Toyota or Honda, we always felt that those few problems we experienced were a fair trade off for the FUN factor. Let's face it, Mazda -above just about all others- likes to make fun-to-drive cars.

Unfortunately, several things have happened to sour us on Mazda. I won't go into it here but suffice to say that we don't consider ourselves Mazda enthusiasts any longer.

When the '01 Miata was released with the claimed horsepower increase, it was the 10th model year of the Miata. The popularity of the car had already been established. Yet, despite this fact, MANY early '01 owners decided to have Mazda buy back their cars. I've heard that Mazda was surprised by the number of people that requested buy backs.

The RX-8 is in its first model year. It's popularity has not been firmly established. This horsepower deficit, if real, is a much more serious matter IMHO. Mazda is reintroducing the rotary to a wary public. The rotary already gets poor gas mileage compared to even more powerful competitors (G35 @ 280HP for example). Fuel prices are again up close to $2 per gallon (here in San Diego). Now folks are finding out that not only are they getting 4-6 mpg less, they allegedly have a bigger HP gap than they paid for.

I don't think buying back the cars or offering a substantial refund will do the trick. Mazda must FIND that missing HP and restore it. Heaven help Mazda and ALL of their model sales if they can't fix this situation and it gets any sort of play in the mainstream media! The last thing Mazda wants right now is a publc relations nightmare.

I used to be a Mazda evangelist. Still love my Miata but I don't think I'll be buying any other Mazda products again.

Mark