ethanol sucks.. there are many other candidates for alternative fuel on the horizon, but instead of doing any research on those we're dumping boatloads of money into ethanol.. go team..

i kno wthis post is old but in conjunction with the one above-

of course its safe- your dilutung the 85% solution with the gasoline. most winter blends are e10 they are safe. i dont know the safe limit but you'd probably at the least want to dilute the e85 to about e50.

by the way i was reading some interesting things about alcohol recently. it does provide less mpg at normal compressions. BUT at higher static pressures it can deliver the same mpg as gasoline.

by upping the compression you can gain about a third more mpg bringing it back inline with gasoline

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentation...-isaf-no55.pdf

e85 price VERY MUCH depends on how many stations actually have it.....

in my town the ONLY place where E85 is sold is the local HEB Grocery Store/Gas station. e85 costs $2.89 and regular 87 is $3.15.

the more places that sell e85 the cheaper it will be/get. in orlando,FL where i visited recently(this past fall) e85 cost $1.90 and nearly all the gas stations sold it, except for the old run-down ones. 87 was like $2.20

Nice find zoom.

The other thing is the difference between a piston and a rotor. I wonder how much of the energy loss from the caloric value of E85 could be returned from just the timaing advance possible. Certainly not all of it, but some of it....

My understanding of E85/ethanol is that it both sucks and Kicks @$$ as fuel. If you're looking for MPG you need to look elsewhere (at lest for now), but if you want power E85 is racing fuel you can buy at your local gas station. There are a lot of articles out there about some insane power with E85.

As far as the how it is made, that might change in the future. I need to find the article again, but with biomass-GTL you put any organic material into a machine and it converts like 90% of it into fuel and uses 40% of that to run itself, so you get 50% into fuel. This is way over simplified and probably not totally correct, but you get the idea. But I think Biomass-GTL is a ways off.

actually... E85 could very well provide greater performance, but there's no way around the fact that mileage will suffer... the Koenigsegg CCX 888hp on petrol... the CCXR (tuned for E85 instead of gas) 1018hp...

I have read all the posts with interest. As fuel prices rise, my it becomes harder for me to afford to fill the RX8. I understand that one of the biggest drawbacks to E85 is that the alcohol will remove the lubricating film from the seals therefore pure E85 may not be good for the engine.

With high octane gasoline running over $4.00 a gallon, is it feasible for me to fill half with 87 octane gasoline and half with E85? Would the E85 raise the octane level when mixed with regular gasoline to provide good performance? Will the regular gasoline reduce the alcohol content enough to not remove the lubrincant from the seals?

I saw Esmril racing has an E85 conversion kit. anyone have this?

Alternately, couldn't you just oversize your injectors to account for the new flowrate necessary, oversize it just a hair so you don't run lean in open loop, and let the O2 sensor make the correction in closed loop?

Mazda Furai runs on E100. Maybe mazda has something in mind, for biofuels...

If that was destructive for the engine why they use it?

If mazda makes new rotors for higher compression ratio then there will be gain for both performance and fuel economy
Those cars (like furai) are engineering exersises for what's coming next (i think).

Hey guys, have a look at THAT:


"For competition engines, we can raise the compression ratio of your rotor by adding material to the combustion pocket. The material is precision deposited to give each flank the same recess volume and provide for better compression balance. This service can be used to raise the compression ratio up to 11:1 and is available in “as sprayed” form (where the client will have to finish the combustion pocket) OR with a CNC milled finish that can be tailored to your preferences.
Additionally, we are also able to precision CNC mill each rotor flank to ensure that each face of the rotor is providing the same compression and that each one has the same rotor recess profile. This is especially important on race engines where the OEM Mazda rotor have varying compression ratio’s from flank to flank."

http://www.jhbperformance.com/services.php


How about it?
Is it possible?
possible but difficult?
impossible?
noncence?

If possible, it will solve the biofuel ...thing. I think.

Hey MM do you read this thread? If so could we use the same injectors with just a different map or would you recommend a new fuel pump and injectors.

Map for reg gas (E10)
Map for E50
Map for E85

Perhaps a MM package deal in the works ... maybe a special one for MM cobb owners :)

Any updates? anyone have a working conversion?

We have one....E-85 kicks butt! We are looking at 500whp...look at my thread in major horsepower upgrades section.

Best regards,

Chris

So even e10 isn't good for the ol' renesis?

I see on your site you have a NA conversion kit. Can you talk about what is involved and HP gain we could expect?

Also your "Click Here" to buy does not work so we can not see how much it costs :)

I've been running a 30% E85 70% 87 Octane mix for about a year now. Engine runs very well on this.

MPG with straight 93 Octane is consistently 20-20.2, my daily drive is 82 miles open freeway and 12 miles country road. Usually average 70 MPH on the round trip.

30% E85 70% 87 Octane mix I get 19-19.4. Factoring in the cost its just about the same depending on the prices. The mix was definately lower cost when gas was in the $4 range.

Throttle response is a bit crisper. It seems to run better above 7000 RPM, but thats from the butt dyno only.

On the few cold days we get in Texas, it fires first spark (cold or warm) but with gas only it needs to turn over about 2-3 times.

On long drives the passenger side heat is reduced with the mix. The passenger will notice that after the first fuel stop and you fill with 93 octane only.

I've tried filling a 1 gallon of E85 only (and had a two gallon bottle of gas with me) and it will run, but not very well. I ran it for a while, and refilled a couple times a gallon each to see if the ECM would learn E85. It wouldn't. The engine stumbled on opening the throttle and lacked power. Just too lean.

Despite the grumblings of a few dinosaurs here, ethanol is a great fuel when the engine is designed for it. The Renesis is not designed for it, but then its not really designed for any fuel under 120 octane either. Detonation and rotaries is a different subject, but detonation is the reason rotaries are difficult to make efficient.

Guys -- don't forget that Hymme has been running E85 in his supercharged 8 for a while and managed to get an extra 20hp by doing so.

Don't ask me how, I just saw the dyno result he posted. Just saying it's not impossible, but I am sure there was a LOT of work put into everything he did.

No one will deny that you can get more power out of E85. However your gas mileage suffers very hard. If all you care about is power on a forced induction engine then go ahead and use it. If you want to save money on fuel costs, E85 isn't going to be the answer.

Ethanol CAN be made to work very well. It doesn't work well in current engines optimized for gasoline use and this is where the problem lies. Ethanol does have less potential energy in it than gasoline so theoretically it should have less total power potential per volume used. However there are more important things going on inside an engine such as pumping losses as well as burnability, flame front control, and heat absorption properties of the fuel. We lose tons of energy just so we can get some usable mechanical power from it. Just because the fuel itself has less potential energy in it does not mean the total engine efficiency can't be improved when running it. There are many variables. It's not always plausible that more power will be made with a fuel that has less potential energy in it but it's certainly possible to. The key is in how well you utilize the potential as usable work.

haha hmmm economics class
:)
more sell it = more demand + same amount of corn = higher prices!

For those looking for some pricing on E85:

http://e85prices.com/

Its pretty accurate for the Texas area.

ethanol may be cheap now but its becuase its not the most common fuel if the whole country ran on it
it would cost at least twice as much as gas now

gas wasnt running a couple bucks a gallon when it began being used. ethanol is running that now and its not a majorly used fuel yet if that ever happens (hopefully not) it will be extremely expensive and car prices will also go up for having to find a way to efficiently make engines that run on ethanol more efficient than gas.

if that makes sense ....

everyone knocks alcohol may be because you could make your own gas at home. auto builders and oil companys have been in it together for a long time. sugar cane is the only effective way to make ethanol no ifs ands or buts. alcohol makes more power just go to the drag strip none of the fastest cars run gas all run alcohol or nitromethane. 20 percent more fuel is needed to run alcohol 25 percent for methanol and 40 to 50 percent for nitromethane blends and almost 9 times the fuel for 90% nitromethane mix. alcohol is a astringent which strips oil off surfaces. It is not an acid and may over time cause slight oxidation but water will do the same faster. if you dont believe me drop a crimp on cable stop in a bottle of water and drop another in alcohol, vodka will do just fine as it has both alcohol and water a worst case so to speak place both bottles on a shelf in your garage sealed for a few months or years for that matter nothing more than a white film will form on the surface of the metal. as for the fuel system all rx8 fuel lines pump and injectors are safe to use alcohol. like i said earlier it is not acid but most modern lines and pumps could pump acid just fine.injectors would be toast as they usually contain some form of brass. Fuels like alcohol and nitromethane both have oxygen locked in the fuel itself hence the reason for more fuel needed for less air. lets face it the only way to make more power is increase what is being burned. there is no magic fuel that you use less fuel more air to get more power. if it existed we would be using it at the track.

:facepalm:

oh yeah one more thing alcohol burns with a blue flame so in daylight you can burn to death in your car after an accident and no one would know. another reason it gets a bad rap and lack of respect.

oh, you didn't embarrass yourself enough the first time?

nope people like georgia8er make me look like Einstein.

Why are we talking about alcohol, thought this thread was about E85.


E85 doesn't burn invisible like alcohol. I would never use alcohol at the track...

nothing like digging up a 5 yr old thread to make an argument using misinformed statements, including calling yourself Einstein for doing it .. lol

I have been making my own racing gas for my 650 sx jet ski for 15 years now and think I understand ethanol pretty well. I also think I have a better grasp of what is needed to denature ethanol so it burns with a visible flame. Since you are so smart on all things alcohol related why don't you tell everyone here how to purify 190 proof ethanol to 200 proof ethanol. Cause you know right? The blue flame argument is why cars were switched to gas in the first place if you know your automotive history you would have got that comment for what it was. A historical quote used as sarcasm but apparently you didn't understand the( bad rep and lack of respect part.)

Bump.

Does anyone think the stock fuel pump assembly or rubber/plastic (not sure what it is actually) part of the stock fuel lines would have any issues handling E85? And would the pump itself need to be E85 compatible? I can't see how any of these items would not do okay with E85, just wondering what some of you guys think. Also, I am wondering if the stock injectors (I have blues in the P2 location) would be able to handle the E85 from a flow perspective?

Thanks.

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-eng...-247223/page4/


This guy did it on stock injectors and I'm guessing stock fuel system aside the pump. Longevity I'm not sure about though.

The stock injectors are not the best for e-85 I've seen them rust a bit internally from pure water use, but the subie guys seem to have good luck with them.
Some light reading:
E85 fuel FAQ - NASIOC
Also a good injector reference:
Injector, Fuel Pump, and Fuel Rail FAQ: Read if you are thinking of upgrading! - NASIOC
We use the same injectors as the 02+WRX.

Hope that helps a little.

I couldn't run full E85 on mine with a newish OE pump without it leaning out on the top end. Others gave done it though, could have been an undetected problem on mine or maybe they were making less power, or maybe it was a tually less than 85% ethanol. I had to dilute down to approx. E60 ...

I run a 3gal mix when someone calls me out... 16psi with 17*timing at redline. not a good combo for 10:1 compression on just 93. otherwise, I run 10psi with 93. Stock pump(walbro 255 is here, I've just been lazy and pushing the limits) stock yellows in primary and uncapped for the rest.
9k, thus the reason I ran away from those guys like I did in the vid you saw via FB

Thanks for the info guys. I have a newish Walbro, I see a solid 60psi thru the rev range. I was just wondering about the stock plastics and such, like the filter sock. The lines and such would likely be replaced with AN fittings/adapters and braided line that is E85 rated since we have the tool to make them. The tuning and such would be handled by Steve Kan and I would like to run E85 fulltime.

Stock pump is good to 10psi? I'm only running .3 bar spring on stock pump, wasn't sure how much it was good for to start pushing more. Same injector setup as you. I still have my Walbro, but I consider all my old fuel system suspect and resist the urge to put any of it back in. I was contemplating a DW200 as a replacement, but if the stock pump is good that far out then I'll probably stick with stock for awhile.

I haven't had any problems, but I also don't have a fuel pressure gauge. I just know that I hold commanded AFR without a hiccup. I didn't think anything over 10 was going to be possible until I read about Kane tuning a guy on the stock fuel system at 14psi. I decided that day I would be adventurous. It's paid off so far. *note* your turbo outflows mine...

Cool, appreciate that. I guess I will just have to see how far I can take it. I like pushing envelopes, I just needed some encouragement :)

Put a boost a pump on it with a boost switch. Others here have poo-poo'd this, but they use it with good success on RX7Club.

I intend to run one with a vacuum switch on my NA E85 engine

Otherwise its an OE pump, so you never know. I never had a problem though, gas or ethanol.

Walbro makes special E85 pumps though, not recommended to use their gas pump on it. Injectors can be an issue. Some pintles can rust/stick if moisture gets in the system and they sit unused too long. The ID1300 injector has a stainless pintle just for high E fuels.

E85 requires 30% - 40% more flow than gas due to the stored energy difference, so your entire fuel system needs to have this additional capacity at a minimum ...


.

E85 Pre-Mix - RX7Club.com

Also some good reading on pre-mixing for you guys on E85, if you guys don't already lurk on 7club like me.

After reading this whole thread from the beginning i dont understand why there was so much arguing in the beginning. Other than no-one knew a damn thing about E-85 when it came out.

It seemed like there were a couple different arguements going on at the same time but no one was on the same page, Power v.s. fuel economy, cost v.s. efficiency, when the OP just wanted to know what would have to be done for an E-85 conversion.

Whenever we (going to go into subaru land for a bit here) have a car come into our shop that the owner wants to run E-85 on they almost always change out to a higher power fuel pump and bump up an injector size or two. Most people around here run 1000CC injectors depending on other supporting mods. They have our local tuner make a base map to account for the bigger turbo, intercooler, injector size, usually aftermarket catless up-pipe, and whatever intake they run on there, street tune the 91 map, run the car out of fuel, fill on E-85 and then make another tune. Have both maps available on the accessport or whatever interface they decide to use to make the changes.

Why is (was) this such a hard thing to expect out of our motors?

I mean yes, without bumping up compression and/or running FI there really isnt a reason to make the switch to E. You could possibly grab a few more hp with good tuning and the right supporting mods, along with having your egt's be a good bit cooler. But for actual good reasons, meh.

well ...

It probably has more to do with someone reading something on teh intrawebs and then repeating it like they have direct knowledge of something that they don't ....