Originally Posted by Ramart (Post 4355215)

Mazda's Synth-Renesis and the Knight Sport oil would be the "exotic, specially engineered, non-mass market" synthetics I referred to in my original post. Can we perhaps agree that such oils might be the exception to the rule about avoiding ordinary synthetics?

Originally Posted by RX8Soldier (Post 4355218)

Ramart, you're right. Let's just throw away 8 years (and counting) of research and experience and listen to your wise, regurgitated words.

USE ONLY 5W20!! USE ONLY NON-SYN OILS!! Do NOT use any aftermarket parts on your car, because why would Mazda build a car to be modified? SHOP ONLY AT YOUR LOCAL MAZDA DEALER! :) I actually buy all my groceries from them. Great people. Tons of rotary knowledge.

Originally Posted by bse50 (Post 4355223)

You're wrong so please shut up and stop spreading false informations based on nothing more than mere assumptions.
90% of synthetics are fine. If you want to know which ones don't work search for rotarygod's post.

I use 10w40 synthetics only and live in a mediterranean climate. I must be a moron.

Originally Posted by Ramart (Post 4355227)

Wait, wasn't the figure 99% just a minute ago?

I can't speak to your "moron" self-assessment.

Originally Posted by RIWWP (Post 4355222)

Ramart,

If you want to gain any traction with that argument, go conduct a burn test of various oils when diluted with gasoline at combustion temperatures and analyst the deposits left behind.

Originally Posted by Ramart (Post 4355230)

I'm not an engineer, so I'll pass.

But I will possibly err on the side of conventional wisdom vs. synthetics-are-OK "science" gleaned from a blog posting.

Originally Posted by rotarygod (Post 1384082)

I've even using it for a many years now. Even Racing Beat recommends Royal Purple although before they did, they used Amsoil.

Everyone should understand that I don't say that you should not use conventional oils. I'm just against people saying that you shouldn't use synthetics. That's a rumor that needs to go away. One reason why I use RP is because they obviously know a thing or 2 about rotaries. It's obvious by looking at their FAQ page. They obviously understand what goes on in a rotary and have actually gone to the trouble to test in them.

I do have to laugh at the people who claim that Idemitsu is somehow specialy formulated for the rotary when other synthetics aren't. I have to ask, what makes it so special? We all know that what makes a motor oil a motor oil is the additive package. The base stock couldn't cut it on it's own. All oils use basically the same types of additives just in different proportions. It definitely can't be them that is special. What about the base stock? Could that be it? What makes a synthetic a synthetic is the base stock oil. Idemitsu is a group IV PAO. So is RP and several others. That can't be it. So what is it that makes it so special and safe for rotaries? I'll let you in on the big secret. Shhhhh...... Mazda endorses it because one of their guys had a hand in formulating it with Idemitsu. That's the secret. There's nothing special about it other than that. Last I checked it's what it's made out of that counts, not who did the mixing.

There is one thing that stands out about Idemitsu. I've seen an oil analysis of it which is why I crack up at the claims hat it is good and others aren't. It contains unusually high levels of molybdenum. Many other oils contain this as well. Just not in as high a quantity. Does this make it rotary compatible? Nope. As I said other oils have it as well so that can't be it. Why the large amount? They developed this oil for racing and not street use. For racing they wanted extra lubricating ability. Makes sense, it's for a race car. Molybdenum however will settle out over time. What will happen if you use this in a street car that doesn't get oil changes as often? Where do you think this molybdenum will go? Does that sound like something you want in your street engine just because it is "rotary formulated"? That's an oil I'd save for the track.

The whole point is that nothing makes a synthetic bad for a rotaries and conventionals good. This is the 21st century. 30 years ago there may have been issues. Use whatever oil you want. That's fine. Let's just stop continuing to spread false rumors that synthetics are bad. They aren't and evidence strongly suggests they are better.

Originally Posted by rotarygod (Post 1384296)

I can only speak from my own personal engines and I've built a few. None of them were blown up either. I've sen nothing out of the ordinary inside of one when using synthetics. If the engine was revved up periodically, regardless of oil type, you shouldn't see any carbon in them anyways. I don't baby my engines so I don't ever find it. When I rebuilt my current RX-7's engine, it was after I had bought the car from the original owner. She used conventional oil but she probably also didn't rev it up very high. There was tons of carbon in it. I can't say for sure that it was the oil but can for certain say that it was from driving it to easy. Synthetic oils have never shown to cause any problems in any motors I've seen.

It's impurities in the base stock oil that leave the most residues. Although someone above claimed that oil doesn't burn, this is impossible as we know that oil fires have happened around the world. It just has a higher flash point. This flash point is easily met inside the combustion chamber which will get well over 1000 degrees but typically over 1500 degrees or more. There isn't much that can survive that. I've also seen people claim that conventional oils work better because the actual surfaces inside the engine don't get very hot compared to the combustion gas temperatures and conventional oils have a lower flash point. This too is misleading as that is too broad a statement. They aren't that far off from each other. You might have brand A conventional with a flash point of 470* while brand B conventional has a flash point of 500*. Then you might have synthetic brand A with a flash point of 485* while brand B synthetic has a flash point of 510*. How can anyone based on that say all conventionals are safe to use and all synthetics aren't? The numbers actually work that way. Some conventionals can rival those of some synthetics. Others can't.

So if we can narrow down temperature as a factor in what does and doe not work, it must be something else. In fact it is. It all goes back to the impurity level in the base stock oil. The higher the grade, the lower the impurities with groups IV and V being superior. Groups I-III are conventionals the difference between them being in simple terms the amount they are refined. This means filtered of it's impurities. Ther more impurities it has, the more there are to burn off. The more that are present, the less likely you are to burn them all off which leaves deposits. Some will always burn. These impurities also cause the base oil to break down faster. There are several negatives to it. Some people will even claim that certain impurities are actually lubricants. That's a nice feeling isn't it? There's a cure for that though when you get to the purest oils. It's called the additive package. Simple. All oils contain them anyways.

I will not say that RP works the absolute best. It is known and proven to work well in rotaries and even the rotary big dog at Mazda Japan has stated it is a good oil. I know. I asked him.

There is controversy as to whether or not group III oils are synthetics. I say no as it is nothing more than better filtered group I-II oils which is what all the "conventional" people here run. Groups IV and V are not the same as this. FWIW: Amsoil XL series oils are Group III while their other lines are Group IV. RP is Group IV and Redline is Group V. There is no advantage between groups IV and V. They are both pure. They are just different.

Keep in mind that 2 stroke oil is designed to be mixed with fuel and be burned. This just means it burns cleanly with minimal carbon deposits. We can never claim absolutely no deposits but we can agree that purer and less of them is better. Regular oil is soluable in gasoline. I know. I've experiemented with it and it has been confirmed by other sources as well. Hopefully that's enough info for now. I'll let it get back into the naysayers court before I go and explain it all over again.

Originally Posted by RIWWP (Post 4355233)

A blog posting huh.

"It's on the internet, so it must be true."

Any reason you are so quick to believe one bit of information on the internet in the face of so much opposition?

And here is the rotarygod posts people are referring to, and if I remember correctly, his IS an engineer, in the oil industry...






Edit, bse found another one...

Originally Posted by StealthTL (Post 4355242)

My research indicates....

Wish I had a dollar for every poster that thinks his Google-Fu trumps everyone elses'.

Originally Posted by renesisking (Post 4355729)

Rammart, there is tons of information on here. Just read it through, rotarygod as well as many others on here have been involved with rotaries for a very very long time and have mutilple contacts and sources within the industry, it is wise to hear what they have to say. ... I still have only gotten halfway in the rebuild process.

Originally Posted by Ramart (Post 4356002)

Mazda engineers, not synthetics salesmen and lobbyists, are responsible for the owner's manual prescriptions regarding oil. But those salesmen and lobbyists are glad you're willing to spend $8 or more a quart on long-life products you throw away every few thousand miles.

Originally Posted by Ramart (Post 4356002)

Mazda engineers, not synthetics salesmen and lobbyists, are responsible for the owner's manual prescriptions regarding oil.

Originally Posted by paimon.soror (Post 4356106)

As an engineer myself I find this one sentence hilarious lol. If you think engineers have the say all end all when it comes to the manual for anything you are surely mistaken.

Originally Posted by Ramart (Post 4356654)

I'm guessing the truth on your point depends on what kind of company you work for, e.g., BP, Enron...

Originally Posted by Ramart (Post 4355226)

Personally, I use 10w-30, though I admit to being concerned I'll always pass the Calif. emission tests and might foul the damned catalytic converter used in Calif.

Originally Posted by Iluvrevs (Post 4358281)

Google Translate

Not sure this has been seen here yet but it was interesting and some might find it applicable to our application. Beware its translated from Russian.