I found the lower post by T-von to be a great reason for premix. If you would disagree could you explain why?

well, like ASH8 said, most of the parts inside Renesis are the same.

one of the major difference is the oil injector location. older rotary engine have a single center nozzle only. After a while Mazda found out that the apex seal has "uneven" wear. center is "ok", but both corner is not.

So the 13B-MSP(Renesis) have 2 injector and pointing it at the corner. Mazda was hoping that the oil would "even out" at the center. cuz "on paper" theory, this would work. But the result was again disappoint Mazda, now instead of uneven wear at the corner, apex is having uneven wear at the center.

Funny thing is it took Mazda "this f-ing long" to figure this "oh yeah we should have left & right and center nozzle!!!"

Another funny thing about the 8 community is that for some weird reason, Premix/oil weight/Synthetic thing has been a beaten to death topic on the older rotary and the conclusion over there was :

- it is OK to use Synthetic oil.
- a good premix DOES help. no matter Street or Racing condition.
- Heavier oil weight is better. 5w20 is a f-ing joke.
- Factory Oil pressure is generally too low. even for street use. and same shit happening again even after so many f-ing years. finally Mazda realized "oh yea we messed up, hmm, our new E-MOP system needs more oil pressure anyway, so lets just double it to be safe"

I won't explain the first one again. but second one, just think of it, there is nothing really that special on 13B-MSP except better tuning, better metallurgy/apex/material/computers, higher compression rotors, and a few other things. Apex seal needs as much lube as possible in te old days, why not now?

meh ... what do I know :)

Yep. I have that book as well and some of the "experts" (think RX7 community) quoted in that book don't have a lot of credit so take what you read with a grain of salt. Great book though.

The fact that the professional guys tracking and rebuilding S1 rennys every month use(d) premix should be enough to prove to you it works. I doubt they would waste the time or money doing it if they did not see the benefits when rebuilding them after a few races.

Just saw these updates, I'm typing my response from my iPhone 4 so this should exciting, excuse minor mistakes :)

Okay @ Ash:

Please note: Yes this debate is old but this a forums, and this is what its
Meant for.

The Renesis suffers from lack of lubrication to the center apex seal we know this. The Sohn Adapter will not help this but allows us to use a oil that's meant to burn and that's clean. This still doesn't help our problem. But one of the reasons why I don't premix, (not to say I don't believe in
premix), is because our engines seem to give out without any pattern. We have some 04's, like Flashwing (Todd), and several locals here in Texas that have over or close to 100k miles without
premixing and their still running (with the exception of Flashwing).

My recent engine went dead at 47k miles and the owner I bought it from purposely bought it late in 05' because he was on these forums and read about the lubrication problems and starting problems. He was trying to prevent these problems from Happening and gave Mazda close to two years to fix these problems. He ran Nothing but Royal Purple in it since break-in yet it still mysteriously failed at 47k miles (I bought it when it had 32K).

I just almost find it a waste (even though it's more than likely not) considering many people don't premix and make it more miles then us that strive to make our engines last, 9K can attest to that.

To Anwser your question Ash, premixing more than likely helps lubricate the center of the apex
Seals but there comes a point where we as enthusiasts have to draw a line where taking care of our car crosses a line IMO. Mazda hopefully has fixed this problem.

I spend alot of $$$ on Royal Purple synthetic but I'm not going to spend even more
$$$ on premixing as well. I do not have a race car, when I start to track and autocross my 8 (I'm still young, 18 lol) I will probably premix a little for that day or so but for the most part.


@ Plain Ole Wanker

I havent read that before and sways my mind a little because it makes sense. I cannot provide any more information than that because I have yet to tear down and rebuild rotary engines and to
Make an accurate hypothesis.


@ NYCGPS

I'll be the first person to admit if I'm wrong, I'm
Honest about these kind of things because I know I'm young and still have alot to learn. Just wanted to state that so you and everyone else knows.

I never said I don't believe in premixing, I just find it a hassle considering our engines tend to lose compression randomly. I'd hate to spend money on premix the whole life of the engine to have it die 47K miles later. Premixing can't do anything but help but how much can it help? I mean I guess rather safe than sorry but it's expensive to fill the tank in this car @ $3.10 a gallon here and $9 a quart on RP Synthetic, $15 for RP oil filter let alone to spend more money on oil to premix.

I will say if I built my engine and clearanced the seals then I would premix and do everything to make this car last, but with most if not ALL of us getting reman's Its a risk. I'm already going to get a midpipe and the Sohn Adapter. I suppose I have a opportunity with this engine to premix since it's new and I've put 700 miles on it now; I could go all out but what happens
If this engines shits itself? I just got done arguing/fighting with Mazda because they originally denied me a new engine (I'll post a new thread once i get information from Mazda about what actually happened to my car), I'd hate to have to argue with them again and have spent all that money on premixing when my engine didn't even last as long as some 04's.

Hope this helps.

It's not really random, it's just that since most of us are getting engines under warranty, we do not get to open up the engines and see exactly why they failed. Not every failure is due to the apex seals not getting lubrication.

My personal belief is that it's a combination of issues ranging from poor coils, shitty maintenance /driving habits, lack of a third oil injector, low oil pressure, poor reman quality, possible fuel starvation?, etc. The bottom line is that we will see now that people are getting new motors on their own dime and now we are able to see inside if them.

My engine has 20k on it with BHR ignition kit, BHR fuel pump, SOHN, Mazmart OP kit, single oil cooler, and 0W-40 motor oil and OCD maintenance since break in so we will see if all this helps or not. If my engine fails prematurely then a real rebuild will go in and I will experiment all over again :lol:

You can tell if an owner premixed when tearing an engine down. It usually is much cleaner and "better" looking :)

I was one of the 4 technical advisers for that book and with the exception of a few small items it is one the most informative and accurate rotary information sources you can find.

You were? I must have missed that though. Cool, I wasn't referring to you though ;) I do actually think you know what you are talking about. Most of the time anyway, :lol:


I do agree though, I learned (still am actually) a lot from the book.

#3 is the best answer..

and change the oil often..

the rest of the info he or she gave you is bunk..

beers :beer:

I did premix for about 50% of the life of my motor. I was not aware of premixing until about a year or two after I bought the car so by then I had about 40,000 miles on the motor. I've had lapses in premixing due to running out and I don't think I premixed for the last 10,000 miles of the motor before it blew.

I honestly feel the jury is still out regarding direct benefits. Most of the motors that get torn down do not have reliable maintenance histories and the actual care itself is not consistent.

Myself and Jeff both premix. Ray Hill, on the other hand, has never premixed. We've had various different motor conditions and no true conclusions. If premixing helps you sleep at night (as it did for me) go for it. If you think it's a waste of money then don't bother.

We know the act of premixing works. Rx7 owners have done it plenty where they will remove the OMP and just premix heavily. The real question is whether 1/2 oz or 1oz of oil per gallon of gas really makes a difference overall.

Giorgio and I went back and fourth for quite a long time regarding 2 Stroke oils and he gave me a lot of good suggestions. I even found a bike shop that sells the Motul 800 but it's rather pricey for injected oil. I've compromised using some of Amsoil's synthetic 2-stroke.

The one thing to keep in mind with the 3rd OMP nozzle is that is not a for sure conclusion that the 2 nozzle system doesn't work. Remember that Mazda must design the motor to function using as little oil as possible for emissions. My guess is the 3rd nozzle was introduced in order to keep oil consumption down while solving a problem. The S1 motors using the accessPORT can jack their OMP rates up enough where I believe proper lubrication is achieved. I saw it on my own motor and I was satisfied the process works.

With premix, keep in mind that race teams really don't need it as much as street driven 8's do. Your OMP injection is much much less at cruise and lower loads so premixing on the street is really more important. I never premix when on the race track because the omp is almost always wide open.

The fact is the RENESIS is not the 13B or the 12A or the 20B etc. You can show me part numbers, talk about how the RX7club has settled the science with this stuff but the fact remains that the Renesis is a different animal. I know this because I've seen household name shops make that assumption only to find out their RX7 tried and true techniques don't work.

I know there are self anointed geniuses out there who will disagree with me but little does everyone else know those same people still come to BHR for advice.

I remember our good ol' pms about the 2 strokes oils Todd! :)

@Swoope: I love when they post this comments about using the holy graal of all oils. 5w20 dino ONLY. European rx8s must be powered by an inline 6 by listening to them. We have to use 5w30 semi-synth oils lol!

yea,

the oil is the issue.. ?

for the usa. the issue was the tune mandated by the epa.

that was a 04 issue.. but it continued to 05 an 06.

but what do i know..

beers :beer:

Right, we had the same problematic flashes here as well but the dealerships still don't bother updating some pcms :)
As i have stated several times we are allowed to use 5w30 and 10w30 oils so saying that 5w20 is the only safe oil to use is plain bullshit, unless to stick to my theory that european rx8s are powered by an inline 6 :) .

Repeating to each new user that it's not the oil itself but its formulation becomes boring after a while.
Some skilled and tech-savvy guy (rotarygod? :) ) should write a short thread that explains the oil "issue" once and for all. Lock and sticky that... then we could just save the link on our desktops and keep linking it, rofl.

I am a new rx8 owner. I use amsoil amo 10w-40 for all the cars we have at family. I am very satisfied with this oil but i don't know if i can put it on RX8. Mazda say that we must use 5w-20 but most rx8 owners put 5w-30. What will happen if i put 10w40 synthetic?

Amsoil is good stuff. You won't have any problems with it in the rotary.

In regards to premixing or not, saying that so and so hasn't premixed and hasn't had an engine failure isn't terribly relevant. There are people that haven't premixed who have had failures. It is really hit or miss. Why risk it? The reason the S1 RX-8's don't dyno consistently and why there is such a great reported variation in gas mileage all goes back to the lubrication to the center of the apex seals. Some cars dynoed higher than others. Some cars reportedly got better gas mileage than others. It was very inconsistent. To say that one person hasn't had any issues just means they have one of the better faring engines. The newer S2 engines fwiw dyno higher on average and are more consistent.

Depends where you live and the temp extremes your engine will see when cold. The 5 means it will lubricate move quicker/better when cold. Personally I'd stick with an oil starting with 5W- for these cars in most cases. I always keep a matching quart of oil and a fixaflat where my emergency tire kit used to be strapped (which a PO or dealer hooked along with the extra key fob).

I replaced my (failed) crappy plastic one row radiator with a 3 row Muzi all aluminum and now my engine runs at a constant temp so the oil doesn't have to work so hard in my "new" factory motor. Until my second engine warrantee is up on my '04 I'm taking it to the nearest dealer for oil changes and they use 5W-20 premium dino ONLY in these cars. Until the extended warrantee is up they have to give me a new motor if they are wrong!!

When it's on me I'll probably change to 5W-30 dino changed every 6 months/3k miles here in FL. My car is for fun + competition not groceries and doesn't even sit outside. Who knows - I might even spring for Full Synthetic by then for those cold startups when most wear occurs?

One has to stay in their own comfort zone. No matter what you use it will probably work for years before you know if it was a good or bad idea!! By then it will probably be someone else's problem.

Until then just enjoy the superb drive and congratulations on your excellent taste in vehicles.

[QUOTE=twistedwankel;3809845]Depends where you live and the temp extremes your engine will see when cold. The 5 means it will lubricate move quicker/better when cold. Personally I'd stick with an oil starting with 5W- for these cars in most cases. I always keep a matching quart of oil and a fixaflat where my emergency tire kit used to be strapped (which a PO or dealer hooked along with the extra key fob).

And oils with 0w thicken up even less when temp drops.

The new 0w oils have combinations of ester synthetics that don't need viscosity improvers to get the rating like 10w40's or 5w40's.

I'm a fan of 0w30 for people that drive easy, but 0w40 for anyone on this forum, and even the 0w40's will dilute with the excessive gas that's in our oil.

Huh? :lol:

Oh, and 5W oil is not a true Dino oil. I believe to get that number it is a semi-synthetic.

Saw this in the dealership yesterday:
Attachment 250549

Excuse the shitty cell phone cam. Basically it says "Ask your Mazda Service rep about the benefits of Synthetic Oil!"

Are they changing their tune? Or will the first question be "Do you drive an RX8? Yes, then don't do use synthetic!"

Mazda has always embraced the benefit of synthetic oils in rotaries. However they haven't when it comes to recommending it to the public. It all comes down to one synthetic oil they tested that they didn't like. There was an additive in it that they didn't want to see for some reason. It had nothing to do with the base stock being synthetic. We don't know what this additive was though but the oil is "the most widely used synthetic oil in the world". The ONLY reason they say not to use synthetics in the rotary is due to the legal ramifications of not recommending that oil. You risk a lawsuit.

I have no idea how many times we have to repeat this and for how many years this has to be stated before people will stop with the whole "but they say not to" or "it's in the manual" crap. The above info came directly from the head of Mazda's rotary engine department himself. There is no higher opinion in the rotary world. He helped formulate Idemitsu btw and there is nothing special about it that makes it "rotary safe". Every auto manufacturer understands that synthetics are superior which is why they are all moving to it. The whole reason many rotary owners really don't want to go full synthetic is because the extra insurance of using it doesn't outweigh the cost of one extra tank of gasoline every several thousand miles which is really odd as most RX-8 owners use a higher octane gas than they really need to be paying for. Hopefully everyone with this logic has nothing but liability or minimum coverage insurance on their cars too as anything more would be a waste of money.

Pretty good explanations from Ashland Oil for Mortals.
 

http://www.valvoline.com/car-care/au.../ccr20050201so

Pretty good article on Conventional vs Synthetic.

http://www.valvoline.com/car-care/motor-oil-myths/

Motor oil myths vs reality (but no mention of rotaries specifically). Apparently they are considered internal combustion gasoline engines.

https://valvoline.promo.eprize.com/e...FQ687QodrTVc1g


Pretty good $5000 insured guarantee from Ashland Oil/Valvoline. Might be worth the effort as pretty simple to comply under 125k miles on present engine? On line oil change verifications twice yearly/4000 miles max. 300,000 mile warrantee with full synthetic - I've never owned/driven a car that long/far but some day my Mazda warrantee will expire.

Synthetic oil is Evil ! its gonna eat your engine aliveeeEEEEEEEEEEE ! RUNNNNNNNN !!!!!

I was laughing at the comment about the Muzu (sic) radiator and the stock radiator because what was said is inaccurate. It is well proven that the Koyo and Mishimoto radiators are generally crap and are not better than the stock one. I cannot speak for the Mizu though, I have never seen anyone run it but I have read some bad things about it on other forums. I have the Koyo and I regret getting it because it does not perform as well has the stock one does. This has been shown quite a few times. But its does perfom okay for DD, it's just when things get tough in the summer on the track and in the canyons that it can't shed heat the way the stock one could.

Just because it is aluminum and the stock is plastic does not mean it is better or has more cores. The BHR (Griffin) or Mazmart (Ron Davis) have great reviews and I am sure the PWR and Fujita probably perform great as well.

Oh, and I have not read that book but I believe he is referring to an oil cooler. I am well aware of the importance of a good efficient oil cooler and oil thermostat, that is why I have a 28" Fluidyne cooler in my car to replace the dual stock coolers. Although, the stock coolers are pretty good and if I did it all over again I would run a real oil thermostat and the Racing Beat oil cooler lines with the stock coolers.

I use 20w50 most of the time.

but my last oil change I put some 10w40 and 15w50 into my engine. Mobil1 was on sale the price is too great to pass :lol:, and the 10w40 was some Royal Purple I had left.

and your question : yes, 40 is perfectly fine for this engine. whoever love 20 is out of their minds *put flame suit on*