Umm, I think you should do some re-search in other forums. like RX-7 Club.
I can assure you that Pre-Mixing does work.

I do not agree with the side by side "evidence" from Street Rotary.

I find it somewhat strange that most of the 7 community Pre-mixes with or without working MOP's.

Using synthetic 2 Stroke in your gas gives instant feedback, smoother idling and many report better mileage because compressions appear tighter.

Sohn adapter is just replacing engine oil with fresh 2 stroke, it still uses the factory "injectors" and you will still have an issue with the middle of the rotor and housing, so Pre-mix IS the only way to get a film of Oil there.

Remember the Renesis 1 is the ONLY rotary Mazda has made without a middle weeper for oil since 1985...:)

The problem with debating oil is the lack of actual data. Doc continues to quote elements of synthetic oil using general statements with no specifics and repeating nearly myth status rhetoric such as "swelling seals" that has not been a problem for quite a long time.

People make oil choices based off of what their father's mother's brother's cousin told them, or based on how the oil "feels" when they use it.

The facts of the advantages of synthetic are well documented even in this thread. Perhaps more READING is necessary instead of the personal attacks being leveled. Frankly Doc you're not gaining any creditability with your comments.

These debates turn ugly because people make it personal. Oil is a very personal choice for whatever reason. People seem to take critical comments about their oil choice personally when it's just like anything else on your car.

Exactly flash which is why I was hesitant to post pics of my bearings here. However, the more data the community has the better, I believe.....so here goes.

Motor ran Royal Purple 5w-30 since 38K, oil was changed round about 3000 miles, car was driven hard on occasion but it was a dd and spent a lot of the time on the highway commuting.

I feel like I should put a disclaimer in here :hahano: YMMV

Doc Beech, seems like you have a lot to learn/read. You are just flat wrong on a couple of points that have been clarified already. Oh, and here :lol:

http://www.mazda-auto.hu/userfiles/renesis_synth2.jpg

WTBrotary is a good guy and has taken the initiative to actually attempt to learn and love what he drives. I know guys personally that are twice his age that have owned multiple rotaries that don't know shit.

Fact is im done here, the data and science of synthetic speaks for itself.

As they say "The proof is in the pudding" and the pudding is good:yumyum:

And thank you Scott, I really do appreciate it.

And Hey Scott... The brakes are made by Brembo (Inside Joke) :yelrotflm

Come to think of it Scott, we used to argue too before we became friends :grouphug:

Meh, I love oil debates.

I have used Dino and synthetic in each my 3 (yes 3 Docbeech) Renesis motors. None of the failures of my previous 2 engines had anything to do with my oil choices or religious oil change habits. Both of my previous engines slowly lost compression which typically indicates worn apex seals. So on the 3rd I have been running catless, premixed, BHR ignition, and SOHN since break in. Will all that help? Who knows. But either way, when my engine does fail every inch of it's tear down will be documented here and we will see just how much premixing, injecting 2 stroke, and running a good synthetic (0W-40 Mobil 1) will or will not help. Hell if this motor goes prematurely then I will save me a ton of money on the next Renesis that goes in because I won't be paying for Mobil1 or premix :lol:

But I test my oil, so I know how it is standing up. Many guys here defend their oil choice to the death yet they have never even tested it.

I have tried two or three different brand synthetics and while the Rotella 5W-40 I used until recently was holding up well, I decided to go back to Mobil1 for the remainder of this engines life just because it tested a bit better. But I can also tell you I ran Castrol GTX in the second motor and it lasted 74,000 so I think getting a good oil is more important than the brand, etc.

Doc,

The synthetic problems you state on swelling of the seals and such are not an issue. Again I am stating 1st hand experience from tearing down and building these guys both rx7 and rx8 motors.

I am not someone to go waste money. I do no put it in any of my vehicles unless I know it works. Look at those bearings of silents motor. Those will not need to be replaced. I have seen a lot of renesis motors need bearings on rebuilds before 100K. If you don't think his oil choice played a factor then I cannot help you nor can anyone else.

Doc as an ex marine myself (Semper Fi Bro) I felt like I needed to come in.
A good rule to follow that i have learned is---if more than one respected person is telling me something--i need to listen.
I agree somewhat on the ethanol issue. I have access to pure gas locally and my car gets much better gas milage and seems to perform better while running it. Ethanol really likes water and seeks it. That has the possibility to complicate things even further.
WHile ethanol can be ran without any short range problems in many engines, I am not sure if our rotary is one of them? I just dont know for sure.
Now on the oil thing-- a good and reputuable synthetic is Ok for the renasis engine. Several reputable and notiable engine builders have told me this. They do recommend at least a 40wgt oil.
The trouble with synthetic for me is its cost. I mean does the benefits out weight the cost? Not for me when I am changing every 3K miles. So I use it only for track events where the oil temps are a little higher usually and the engine load is much higher. The rest of the time I use Valvoline VR 1. I do not run a cat.
I do like ZZDP additive as I personnally believe the stationary gears are hard on a motor oil and the front bearing has to take a pretty big load. But the level of zzdp is low enough that running a cat shouldnt be a problem.
hope this helps a little.
OD

I have owned rotaries for about 15 years now and have run synthetic oil for about 10 of those years. I am on my 5th rotary engined car but I have NEVER had an engine failure. Not one. I have beat the crap out of them and even had the ceramic from spark plugs fall into an engine twice! They just keep going and going. I have changed engines but never due to a failure. I don't premix but I have always had RX-7's and they do get oil to the center of the apex seals. I do have and believe in the Sohn adapter to inject 2 stroke oil though. If I had an S1 RX-8, I would absolutely premix. No questions asked. Even on a stock motor.

There are no seal swelling issues with modern synthetics and modern seals. That is old antiquated news.

Alcohol will leave an engine pretty clean inside as gasoline is responsible for nearly all of the carbon buildup. It takes more alcohol to make the same amount of power as gasoline though but does have more theoretical power potential. There is a tradeoff for everything.

A downside to alcohol is that it is hygroscopic which means it absorbs water. If you had a container of 100% Ethanol that was unsealed, it would actually absorb water from the air and dilute itself. This happens at far lower concentration levels too. Even if it contains some water, and even if this water is not enough to affect combustion or the way the engine runs, it will still interact and rust certain fuel system components unless the fuel system has been designed for it. Some seals, even some modern ones, do have swelling issues with alcohols. Moreso with Methanol than Ethanol. Methanol is nasty stuff.

I have stated my personal oil preferences before. I like 3 main synthetics, Royal Purple, Amsoil, and Redline. They are all very nice and sadly get wrongly blamed for engine failures not related to them. I do also like a couple of conventionals too. They are Havoline and Castrol. I am not really a fan of any others but it's not to say the rest are all bad. That's not so. There is one oil I will never allow to be used in my rotaries and that is Mobil 1 synthetic.

I have tested my Mobil 1 0W-40 and the viscosity was great after 3,000 miles. But I am running the SOHN and premixing so i am not burning the Mobil 1.

good to hear . I run 5w40 synth and change at 5000 miles . No way am I going to buy $80 worth of oil every 3000 miles .

Damn, $80.00? I can usually find it on sale, 5 quarts and a Mobil 1 filter (which I don't use) for $30.00 or so.

Just this morning I took the car into the not so local dealership to resolve a clutch recall, make a new key and resolve a code P2259 (which is yet another story for other existing links).

Since this was my first visit I got a very pointed simple introduction to this engine with 4000+ miles on it. Plus they went over the 04 car with a fine tooth comb looking for $$ business and told me it is in great condition!!

I was told by an experienced FL Service Manager:

1. Never shut the car off cold.

2. Check oil frequently. Never use synthetic oil only 5W-20 quality dino because the engine burns it.

3. Drive it like you stole it as it likes 9000rpm shifts.

So that's what I'm going to do until someone from Mazda Engineering authority tells me otherwise. It has molded into the factory oil fill cap Use 5W-20 oil.

So according to my area dealership who has to fix my engine for free under warrantee you are using a correct lubricant!! And so am I. Dino.

Mobil 1 0w40 is more like $100 plus the filter another $20 . Plus we earn on average about 1/2 what you guys earn so in relative terms our oil is something like 6 times more expensive than yours .

That may explain why I take a slightly different approach to oil changes ....

Was not aware they can make a 5W20 Oil DINO (Mineral Only), I thought it was an impossibility.
Without Blending with Synthetic.

oh man. this is fun. same shit (the stupid debate) happens all over again !

/\ Agree, don't know why I posted..

Cause it's fun!

I use synthetic in an engine that burns oil for the same reason that I don't hold minimum coverage on my auto insurance.

Regarding the issue of ethanol drawing moisture out of the air and further diluting the oil, would it be useful to add small amounts of fuel stabilizer at each fillup?

Is Castrol GTX-3 15W40 available in the States? I'm running GTX 10W40 right now, but would prefer to run 15W40. The problem is the only 15W40 I regularly see here is the Shell Rotella diesel oil. I'd prefer to run that, but I'm still unsure if that would fall under the guidelines of what's outlined as being acceptable and covered in the R1 manual included in the States.

first off, I just want to say

"test have shown identical wear ..." part, if you believe EVERYTHING you read from a book, then you have serious issue. before u try to flame me I have that book too.

What you should understand is that does the author actually have enough knowledge in Rotary engines, from what I know is that most of the information in that book came from various sources. including some of the people in this forum. not trying to say those are wrong, but some of the info in the book are purely "personal opinion".

back to the "wear ... " part, if the author know Rotary engine well enough he should know that this is TOTALLY NOT TRUE. Why? because no 2 engines are created equal, a lot of different variables can create different results.


To Doc, wow, seals swealing ? are you talking about 1970s or are you in 2010 with us ?

ZOOM ZOOM Magazine
 

For what it's worth on the inside cover of Zoom Zoom magazine I was reading at the Mazda Dealership yesterday.


"Born to race. Built to last"

They display clearly a full race RX-8 advertising Castrol SYNTEC oil.

They also show what appears to be a 24hour LeMans car advertising Castrol.

BUT maybe that just means Castrol has a contingency program and racers will do anything for more money?

If I ever use my car for race track use I'll definately use synthetic as the engine will be replaced every couple years anyhow.

^^^ NYCGPS , IMO I think it's a little redundant to premix all the time. I'm glad you have the book and understand what I'm talking about. Of course no two engines are the same but I think we all
Assume that most of the components are working in the engines we are talking about. Basically what I mean is "for the most part".

I don't believe everything I read but I try to fin the same
Anwser from various places before I consider it to be valid, kinda like what Olddragger said. I would not flame you as I know you understand what I'm talking about and have knowledge on rotaries, but at the same time not all of us can have first hand experience in tearing down engines let alone to compare who has premixed or not; so for the most part I read from several sources and talked to several people to come to my conclusion on premixing.

I agree that adding oil to your gas would seem logical to help lubricate your seals etc. But I have yet to read from various sources that premixing on our Renesis engines has any benefit. It seems premixing is the "Red headed step-child" when it comes to attention and more controversial/ personal opinion than oil IMO. Oil takes the spotlight most times it seems.


Granted all of these answers aren't necessarily wrong as I've seen several reputable forum members etc. Be split when it comes to premixing. Most
would say you'd be better off with a Sohn Adapter than to premix.

Edit: Last sentence referring to $ IMO.

OK, so YOU do not believe in Pre-Mix.

Sohn and Pre-mix are two totally different approaches.

I will ask you directly again..

What do you think is "special" about the RENESIS??.

How do you get sufficient oil to lubricate the Middle of your Apex Seals, Sohn wont do it?

If Lubrication was not an issue with the RENESIS, why did Mazda re-install a middle Oil Weeper in 2009??