I asked because you are going to need new coil terminals in order to use them with the GM coils.

 

I appreciate the sentiment but let's not get carried away. I am just foolish enough to have jumped in this industry with both feet and lucky enough to have learned from my mistakes (and read enough posts around here for the past 6+years) what works and what doesn't.

If you don't enjoy driving with a lightweight flywheel (after you take a day or so to get used to it) I will buy it from you. 99% of those who get them really like them.

Which two reasons, again? I forget where this conversation was going.........

 

The two reasons I'm over thinking about the coils.

I am curious also if one could buy the bracket to the ignition kit BHR sells seperately.

Also does the multiple spark discharge from the MSD coild have any ill effects on the Rotary. I only ask because they are designed for the LS2 and I'm concerned about the rotation of the rotor being in the wrong position at the time of the other sparks. I understand the purpose of the leading and trailing plug setup but I'm concerned that the extra sparks could put pressure on the rotor at the wrong time during its path of travel and actually cause problems.

Thanks in advance, and you shouldnt be so modest. It doesnt matter where you learned what you know, it's the fact that you do know it and you understand it enough to redesign and make an ignition setup that is much better than the factory setup. That says alot and def gets my respect.

 

1) Oh yeah. I had to re-read through my previous posts to get back on-track. A) Marc (TheWulf) nailed the first part: GM runs their ignition systems in "wasted spark" mode which places 2x the electrical demand on the coils than normal for a piston engine. This serves the use of GM coils in a rotary pretty well because, B) each rotation of the e-shaft in a rotary sees two firing pulses. One from the front rotor and one from the rear. Due to this arrangement/design, rotary engines electrically fire like a non-wasted-spark 4 cylinder engine.

2) No. We sell our patent-pending harness and the plug wires needed for the GM coils separately, but nothing else.

3) Using the MSD 8247 coils was a popular and early mod (one that my associate, MazdaManiac pioneered) but those coils offer no actual performance benefit to, are more expensive than, and much larger than, the D585 coils we are using. Plus, the GM coils come with a 1-year warranty so we warranty our entire kit for a year or more. The "multiple spark" concept will not hurt the rotary but you are, in essence, paying for a feature which is useless on a rotary due to the leading and trailing coil set-up. Plus, that feature ceases operation at 3,000 RPMs.

4) Not everyone is as understanding or as conciliatory as you, Jaye. Thank you for saying so.

 

1) That makes alot more since of things, So one rotor fires on leading and one on trailing I take it?

2) That sucks. Ive been debating on doing the conversion for some time and actually put together 4 of the gm coil pigtails I scavenged from a harness at work and I also have 4 of the coils laying around at home from doing the MSD swap (Hence why I asked about the MSD coils). I was hoping to just pick up a bracket and maybe some plug wires from you guys. I hate taking the time to fab something that I couldve picked up that would look alot better than what I made lol

4) No problem, Some people just dont value what a resource someone like you can be. A) You are extremely knowledgable and B) Unlike most people you are willing to share your knowledge with others, and then again some people are just a$$holes lol

 

1) No. When the e-shaft makes one full revolution, there is a compression/ignition cycle on the front rotor and then another compression/ignition cycle 180 degrees later on the rear rotor. Theses pulses are identical to that of a four-cylinder/four-cycle engine, in that for each 360 degree rotation of the crankshaft only two cylinders will fire.

2) Maybe Mazmart will sell you their water pump impeller only, since it is easy to get a new OEM pump assembly and possibly save a few bux. Maybe they will tell you who provides their thermostat, too, since it is essentially an off-the-shelf part. That way they can save you money. Maybe Racing Beat will tell us all who makes their resonators so we can simply all build our own versions of their midpipe. See where I am headed with this?

The point is that any company which designs and manufactures their own unique product, or even discovers a new application for an existing product, must invest time, money, and risk in order to make that product into a viable offering to the market. Then we must deal with administering the delivery of the product, proper installation (whether DIY or by a professional shop), any troubleshooting that may arise, and so on. This is why I like to invite people to come visit BHR's HQ for a few days. Of those who have accepted my invitation, 100% of them have a wholly new level of respect for that which ALL of we vendors on this forum deal with every day.

4) I will leave that one alone.

 

[QUOTE=Charles R. Hill;3585698]1) Oh yeah. I had to re-read through my previous posts to get back on-track. A) Marc (TheWulf) nailed the first part: GM runs their ignition systems in "wasted spark" mode which places 2x the electrical demand on the coils than normal for a piston engine. This serves the use of GM coils in a rotary pretty well because, B) each rotation of the e-shaft in a rotary sees two firing pulses. One from the front rotor and one from the rear. Due to this arrangement/design, rotary engines electrically fire like a non-wasted-spark 4 cylinder engine.QUOTE]

I got busy here and dont know what I was thinking here. I understand that they fire like a nonwasted spark 4 cyl but I'm confused.

Actually Wasted spark, which uses 2 spark plugs and wires per coil, pulses at the same time to fire on compression in one cyl and exhaust in opposing cyl, which you already know of course, but it is a common misconception that they run twice the current/voltage flow as it requires way less electrical energy to bridge the spark gap with no compression and since it arcs the opposite way on the plug. (You can see it on the labscope function on our StarScan scan tool on the Hemi which uses a wasted spark setup).

I'm confused too as to how GM can run wasted spark with only one plug and wire per coil.

 

I didnt mean to offend you, I understand. Just thought I'd ask cause Im lazy and yours would look better than what I'd make for it. Nothing bout saving money actually.

 

Because they use a single trigger pulse to fire two different coils at the same time, which are 360 degrees out-of-phase from each other. At least that is our understanding of the GM PCM. If we are wrong, the point still stands that I have run my own engine on the dyno to a legit 10K rpms and the engine sang like a bird all the way up there. Plus, we used the GM coils on the racetrack for quite a while before we released the kit to the public. Since the release of the kit we have over 400 in use around the world and to my recollection we have only had one questionable coil, a handful of screw-ups on my part that were immediately fixed, and maybe two kits returned due to lack of satisafaction.

I have never heard of the "2x voltage/current" misconception, myself.

 

I am not offended and I understand your position because I am a consumer, myself. I just took the opportunity to discuss things that others may not have realized or may have forgotten about what it is we do as vendors. Many people think we vendors just sit around flipping parts out the door/drop-shipping them, and there certainly are those who do only that on this very forum. Then there are those of us who intimately understand what works and what doesn't on the RX-8 and when we sell a part, we back that sale up with direct phone support rather than send you to the tech line of the company whose part we sold you.

The level of support received by our customers changes none whether it is the BHR Ignition System or an ACT clutch (or what have you) which was purchased. This direct support allows us to be taken far more seriously by other manufacturers because, if I hafta call them for help, it must be serious and they understand that. As a result, you get much quicker problem resolution than you would if you were to call the tech line, yourself. I don't call the tech lines, I call the product development managers, and I do so on YOUR behalf.

 

Atleast thats how they taught us in Chrysler classes. you can see it with a labscope on the Hemis setup which uses one coil per 2 plugs (2 plugs per cyl). Which fires the exhuast plug off the opposite side of the secondary coil.

If GM pulses the coil a second time for the exhuast stroke wouldnt it be like regular coil only fired twice as much.

Please dont think I'm being an a$$hole, I dont doubt a word you are saying. I'm just curious how it works is all.

I was an electronic engineer before going back to school to turn wrenches, so the drivability side of how a car works really fascinates me. Thats also the reason I get stuck with all the problem cars at work lol.

 

If you are firing two plugs with one coil, for the best performance I would think there should be the same coil output voltage but 2x the coil output current available than normal from each coil. If you are learning something different, that would be rather interesting to discuss and I am willing to learn. I am tending to think that you are connecting to different concepts under the umbrella of "wasted spark" when they may be different. A modern Hemi using two plugs in the same cylinder, both firing on the same relative ignition stroke, is not a traditional "wasted spark" system. The reason it is called "wasted" is because the coil is firing a plug which is in the exhaust stroke and not the ignition stroke, hence the coil output is "wasted". Once we agree on the premise, or at least understand what each of us is meaning to say, we can discuss why rotaries have two spark plugs and the fact that the combustion chamber actually "sweeps" through the rotor housing.

Exactly.

I don't, at all, and me too.

You'll soon see that OBDII is something righ up your alley, then.

 

The current version of the modern Hemi fires 2 plugs at the same time on the compression stroke and there is absolutely no benefit to that. The reason it is like that was a failed experiment for more power using wasted spark. The 03-04 hemi (and maybe 05 i cant remember) used wasted spark, Number 1 cyl coil fired a plug in number 1 cyl on comp stroke and fires a plug in number 8 cyl on exhaust stroke using a plug wire across the top of the intake.

They saw no power increase from this and when they changed the intake manifold they had a stockpile of engines so they changed the coil and made them attach to both plugs in each cyl (which saw no power increase as well) and did away with the wasted spark setup. (made more sence to fire both plugs since they were there instead of redesigning the head). It also did away with the spiderweb of crisscross plug wires on top of the intake.

So we are both talking about the same thing when it comes to wasted spark. I shouldve been more specific on years of the current Hemi.

 

In a gasoline engine with robust enough coils, you are correct. A nitro-methane engine with 44 amp magnetos is a different story.........

See the problem with discussing dual plugs and wasted spark?

I am glad to see we are on the same page and I tend to think that wasted spark is actually a waste of time.

Man, my head hurts.

 

Every vehicle I have seen it on it was a waste of time for performance but for emissions it can be beneficial in certain engines.

Here is a site I found that explains the reason for the lower voltage and opposite flowing current on the wasted spark system.

http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto%20know/...sted%20sp.html

 

Add me to he list of people with these coils. I just ordered a set and will be putting them on Tuesday as I am still on the original coils at a little over 30k.

 

very interesting tech talk.

Damn a lot to learn.

 

Great discussion going on here...but I have a question about the topic...
Advance Auto sells the BWD Coils for $25/each here. I can't find the warranty listed anywhere.
Oreilly Auto sells the same part number (E1001) BWD Coils for $38/each here. This one specifies lifetime warranty.
Now my question - is the warranty from the manufacturer or the store? The Advance Auto ones are significantly cheaper but don't list the warranty, is it likely that they have the same warranty it just isn't stated?

 

For Advance Auto, its 1 year.

I do not think BWD offers Limited lifetime warranty. Its more like Oreilly bought some kind of insurance on the products they sell. if it fails, insurance pays (but you wont notice anything), if it does not fail, money goes into their pockets

But seriously, at 25 bux each (less if u know where to find/get discounts). hell I probably gonna get a set as "back up" in a few weeks.

 

I feel like with a lifetime warranty if I kept the car long enough it would pay off, but at this point I think I'd rather go with the $25/each from Advance. You can also get 10% bing cashback through the end of this month as well as $30 off $100 purchase, making 4 of these less than $70 with tax and shipping...an incredible deal. However, it doesn't appear that there are any available when I tried to add them to my cart and purchase them.

 

I dont think any Advance store stocks these coils

even online store dont have them ... so ...

 

So I guess it's too good to be true...would have definitely been an incredible deal, but there aren't any in stock anywhere close to me, so it would appear that no store sell them.

 

Here they are for $24.79 each !!!

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web..._667404287___#

 

Hey guys, just a heads up...I hear all the talk about the "deal" of BWD coils because
they are cheap and returnable for free. I put maybe 3k miles on mine and already a loss of power. Pulled them today, 3 out of 4 had not the "corona effect" spot that the OEMs get (which is not a sign of failure) but rather the whole black mounting surface had turned translucently tan, and I could see through into the internals. Only one was still black. I live in WA and there is no Advance auto here, so I would have to send them in. Not worth it. Luckily Atkins is right down the road so I've got new coils
and they are OEM. Way better. Just a caution guys. Get OEM or BHR. Atkins themselves do not recommend anything but OEM. Hope this experience helps for those on the fence about buying. You get what you pay for.

 

BWD are oem. Just the first revision. Reports of excessively early failure exist, but it isn't common. Same reports exist for oem coils.

Keep in mind that fouled plugs or weak wires will kill multiple coils fairly quickly. Outside factors may have influenced your experience. Maybe not, but if you had 1 coil fail i'd not question that it was a faulty coil. 3 coils failing sounds like a broader problem, and it's not even an unreasonable possibility.