6 to 4 shifting question
 

I have been practicing my 6 to 4 shift to pass people on the highway. At first it wasn't working, but now I can get it to work most of the time. The more I do it, the more it seams easier to do so it got me thinking. Am I breaking-in some part in the transmission by doing this? Is this a bad thing to do?

Perfectly fine and quite fun. :D

what i do if i really want to pass is get my line set and shift to 4th to bring the rpms up. then i hold it there and wait for the opening to start to appear(i.e. they start to change lanes to GET THE HELL OUT OF MY WAY!!) as soon as it's clear i drop it to 3rd and mash the gas. this is waaayyyyy fun!!

Then what part of the transmission am I breaking-in that makes shifting from 6 to 4 easier with time?

Yep 3rd can be a little more fun than 4th. I always overshoot my cruising speed and than coast back down to it.

Syncros! They are not worn down enough yet to make them mesh easy enough. The more you drive the easier it will be to shift

None, you're just getting smoother at it. You're learning how to instinctively rev match and feather the clutch for a smooth transisition.

Your both correct. The sycros slightly wear to mesh better and byt the nature of the beast the more you drive the 8 the easier it is to shift.

zoom44 - you hit the nail on the head, 4th hold it - Accord finally gets the hint - shift 3rd "beep", 4th "beep", 6th and coast back down to crusing speed. Too much fun to be legal!! Wait - it's not legal cause you just hit 115 before shifting to fifth.

Unless your average fast lane highway cruising speed is 85... then that third gear thing... well, it doesn't quite work out.

We all know that sometimes an Accord going 85 in front of us is too slow!

hehehe yeah i forgot to mention the "to the beep" part and once i am going as fast as traffic allows i shift to 6th ,skipping 5th, and just coast back to legal speeds. it is so much fun i'm going to go out for a drive now!

Yea it depends what your initial speed is. If I'm following someone going 80 and want to cruise at 90 I won't shift down to third, fourth is fine. But if I'm following someone at 60-70 and want to go 80-90 then yes a third gear shifh is is order. Sometimes I just beep in third and back to sixth other times I beep third and beep fourth before coasting back to cruising speed.

On another note, I am seeing more and more 8s. I am probably seeing 2 a week the last several weeks.

Linger......
 

Oh, please remember to linger at the neutral position, so the shifter lines up nicely between '3&4', otherwise you risk the dreaded '6to2' shift......
....been there too often, got the T-shirt.....

S

Re: Linger......
 

At least I did that in the demo car, not mine..... sales guy next to me panic'd for a moment, but then went on to tell me how nicely the whole car handled an over-rev to 12K and a "reverse drift" on the hiway at 70 mph.. :-P

Re: Re: Linger......
 

LOL, I wish I was there!

Is everyone here doing a straight 6 -> 4 shift?

cluch in, 6 -> N -> 4, cluch out

Or are people going to 4 through 5?

cluch in, 6 -> N-> 5-> N -> 4, cluch out

I found when I was first learing the car that it was very dificult to do a 6->4 shift directly (syncros would have to work VERY hard). A friend recomended going through 5th. Although this takes a little extra time, the lay shaft gets accelerated by the syncros in two much easier stages and seems to be much happier. I haven't tried a straight 6->4 shift in a while tho, so perhaps with more worn syncros the 6->5->4 may not be nessisary. Although I'd probably still do it when I have time to perpare for a pass (just to minimize wear and tear).

I do the same!!! hahah! The first time I did that I was kinda afraid if I would break something. But after the first try, I found out my style and a style that I use frequently on downshifts now.
- Let go of the gas pedal
- Press clutch pedal
- Shift from 6th to 4th
- Tap on gas pedal to rev up but not keep my foot there
- Quick-feather release the clutch
- Step back on the gas pedal (flooring it)
- If the acceleration isn't enough, I repeat the steps to shift to 3rd

This happens so quickly that you no longer have to think about it once you're used to it. It's nice coz your car doesn't jerk, it just increases its acceleration; sort of like how A/T's downshift. I guess that has been my whole motivation with driving M/T. Making it feel as close as the A/T.

Whenever I do this, I can compare it to how you hit a ball with a bat. You toss the ball to a certain altitude and when it starts going back down, you swing and hit it. Only it happens too quickly, you don't have to think about the steps.

ps. The Quick-feather release is important IMO, coz sometimes you could shift to the wrong number and risk destroying your transmission (even engine). I have dropped to 2nd (from 5th) a few times, but never destroyed anything as I detected the error and stepped on the clutch again and automatically shift to neutral to avoid other mistakes...and then say "whew".

Also, I do 6 - 5 - 4 on days when I don't feel as confident on my driving skills.

Thanks for all the great responses:)

I have another question....


I've done some searches about shifting here. My transmission doesn't grind at all, but all the shifts seem a bit notchy. Instead of shifting 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to etc.... It feels like 1 out/in 2 out/in 3 out/in 4, etc....

Anyone else's transmission like this? Also, my 1 > 2 shift is a little tougher than the rest. I plan on changing the transmission oil at 5K miles as some people suggest, if that doesn't work then I'll ask the dealer to check the pressure plate bolts or the shift forks..............

Passing in 3rd gear on a country two-lane highway is a major rush! I LOVE it!

I can't believe how many of you guys beat the hell out of your cars. There must be an age or money gap here or something. I plan on driving my car way past when it's paid off, not driving to get repair parts after 50K.

Anybody here know what double clutching is?:confused: :confused:

Double clutching is this sequence:

depress clutch pedal
take shifter out of gear into neutral
release clutch pedal
re-depress clutch pedal
put shifter into desired gear

In the dark ages before synchros, it was necessary. Maybe in some cases it still is, but I never do it.

I plan on getting at least 200-300k miles out of this car. I don't see how any of the posts in this thead relate to beating the hell out of the car. There is nothing wrong with using the entire band of the rpm. Actually this thread is more about not injuring your car by shifting carefully. A fast feather is proper so if you do misshift you can catch it.

amen bro. it's not really beating the hell our of the car. it's more like knowing your car more and knowing how to shift quickly and smoothly. i rarely jerk my 8 on upshifts and downshifts because of my exploration during the first 3 months i got it.

Fonzie I do seem to have a similar problem as well. My 1->2 is harder then the rest and it does seems a bit notchy, and it wasn't notchy when I first got the car. I'm going to ask them to look at the transmission soon when I take it in for an oil change.

Saves the synchros, and if done properly, you can drop a couple of gears without getting a big lurch when the clutch hooks up again. Try it-you'll like it.:)

Double clutching feels weird. I have done it just out of curiosity. I haven't found a good use for it yet. I know that the older cars needed that to lighten the load on the synchros. Nowadays, it's almost obsolete.

The only detail left out of the double-clutch sequence above is that when you release the clutch in neutral, you simultaneously blip the throttle to get the rpm's to just a shade above the rpm that you'll be at in the newly selected gear. The idea is to get the clutch disk and input shaft running at the exact speed required to mesh the gears w/o synchros.

I still remember doing that on the old Ford F-800 commercial truck that I drove during one summer job many years ago.

An excellent application for double clutching the 8 is when you are downshifting while slowing down. Clutch and come out of your high gear to neutral, release the clutch and begin to brake with your right foot. Tilt you foot sideways and blip the throttle with the side of your foot while still braking, then depress clutch and select lower gear.

With practice, you'll be able to match the revs to get an easy downshift while slowing down without asking the synchros to work very much, and you'll be ready in the lower gear to take off again...

Perfected this in my old MG, and works very well in the 8 (at least with my feet).

So will I save my synchros some wear by revving the engine a little before engaging my clutch during a downshift?

No, but it will save you clutch wear if you match rpms before re-engaging the clutch (and is much smoother in general). The syncros are internal to your gear box and are worn while you are selecting the new gear (N->gear) when the layshaft is speed matched with the drive shaft so that the new gear set can engage.

i only do release the clutch when i need 2 downshift more then 1 gear.....if its only 1 gear i need 2 go down i juss don't realse the clutch....is that good or no?? i've only been driving stick for like year and half......wanna learn more! got heel-toe perfect....but still confused bout double-clutching....

Double clutching I think is only needed when racing, and redlining while downshifting. The purpous it to syncronise the speed of the engine with the transmission with as little clutch use as possible. This way you don't get the sudden shock from the two trying to match speed causing the rear tires to skid, and sending you into a slide. If you get good enough at matching speeds you can actually shift with no clutch... I could do this well in my truck, but don't want to try it in my 8 yet. Sure helps to learn if you ever lose a slave cylinder.
As far as beating on my 8, I feel it is something I do not do. I drive it aggressively, but I do plan to get good life out of it. I have always had a habit of replacing a broken part with something stronger, and I would like to SCCA race my 8 once the warrenty is up. I'd like to see 300k miles, but I highly doubt it'll make it close if I start to race. BTW outside of warranty, I always do my own work on all my vehicles.

Rotarian, did you get your transmission checked out yet?

Nope, not quite yet, but really soon, maybe next week. I am due for the 7500mi service.

I double clutch 6 -> 3 shifts.. very smooth, then the car takes off like a rocket!

It is strange but I don't use 5th gear for just about anything.

I drive about 80 MPH to work everyday and it is always 1,2,3,4 then 6.

When I want to pass someone I go back to 4th.

Personally I would have preferred a 5 speed transmission over the 6 speed we have with gear. Probably could have been beefier and I could go from 5th to 4th with a lot more ease.

Warning about RX-8's transmission: unlike every transmission I've ever owned, it will let you go into any gear at any speed. It went effortlessly into 2nd one time when I was trying to find 4th.

Ouch...

-Mr. Wigggles

You are not the only one to have done this. I have heard it in other threads. When you do it at 70 and the rear wheels start to drift it can be scary though. Not to mention how the guy behind you reacts. "Oops, no brake lights."

yep, been there, done that, this is where double clutching comes into play. 3rd gear @ 85 rpm, clutch in, heal toe break blip the throtle, down shift about 70 and engine break instead of rear wheel lock up. This also ligns you up in second for coming out of the turn. Watch GT or Formula racing, and listen carefully. You hear them enter truns and double clutching to downshift.

I was refering to the drop to 4th from 6th at 70 mph getting missed when down shifting for a pass and into 2nd by mistake. I only made it once myself when I wasn't real familiar with the 8's shifter and the spring loading that gently forces it into a 3-4 position.

The 6-4 downshift doesn't need to be double clutched, but I would definitly double clutch a 6-3 unless I was going to make a 180 and needed to drift around a cone as I have done in autox.

I generally do the heel-and-toe part but without the double-clutching. Is double clutching always advisable when matching revs by heel-and-toeing? [N4BBS but not on the air lately.]

What type of shifting behavior will wear out a synchro?

My 1 - 2 synchro was worn out on my last car when turned it in for the 8. I used to do alot of hard downshifting.....

Did I kill this thread?

I know the feeling :D. Sometimes I wonder if I'm using invisible font :) . I'm sorry I don't know they answer to your synchro question.

the much too hard kind of shifting will wear out a synchro. they're like brass clutches, they don't see a lot of wear with normal easy and gentle shifting, but if you're a ham-fisted mAd kWiCk shifting ricer, then you could torch them easily.

what was the car you were driving before?? was it known to have crappy lower gear synchros?? it's usually the case that, especially when slowing to a stop and cycling downward through the gears (a habit i try to discourage in all my stick-driving friends) that 2nd and 1st can be tricky to snick into.

I had a 2000 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS. Pretty basic 4 cylinder.

Here's what I think it was. I downshifted alot with this car and when I first got it - it wouldn't let me downshift from 2 to 1 until the car was almost stopped. Well, I forced it a couple of times until it let me do it everytime.

I was just worred that I have some bad habit with normal everyday shifting that was wearing the synchros out.

I had the clutch replaced at 60K miles and I asked the guy to replace the front brakes while he was doing the work. He did, but said the front breaks were in great shape. After 60K miles!
Before I get flamed..... I don't drive like that anymore (and I'm not a ricer)......:)

Fonzie - I had the same 1-2 shift feeling notchy. The service rep placed synthetic in the tranny - made a big difference.

He also mentioned 2 other 8's that got completely stuck in 6th gear also.