Spin9k

I did search...maybe it's here somewhere, I don't know.

Short answer woud be appreciated.

Here are the two filters.. checked and the 09 will fit in the space where the old filter goes, but will it work correctly?

The only thing I can think of would be that the relief valve might be set to a different pressure? Not sure if it even matters. The 09 looks nicer, bigger, and therefore if possible why not use it? Old cost $6.68, new $8.42, both cheap.



above- new left - old right



above - old left - new right

teknics

'09 oil system is higher pressure and filter bypass ratings are changed significantly

using an '09 filter would essentially prevent the oil from ever bypassing (it's spec'd nearly double). Lots of filters will spin on and "work", i personally wouldn't do it but that's just an opinion.

here's specific spec comparisons:
'09 Oil Filter
Bypass pressure (kPa {kgf/cm2, psi})
140—180
{1.43—1.83, 20.3—26.1}

'04-08 Oil Filter
Bypass pressure (kPa {kgf/cm2, psi})
78—118
{0.8—1.2, 11.4—17.1}

kevin.

LPCOKIE

i used an Mobil 1-110 which is a little larger. seemed to work well.

Snrub

Aftermarket filters have the same filter number for S1 and S2 RX-8s and even RX-7s. That suggests to me that it doesn't matter which filter is used. Using a non-Mazda filter doesn't void your warranty.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

I think the bypass pressure is a pressure differential figure but I'll ask this old guy I know when he gets back in town on Monday . Extra capacity and filter element exposure area is a good thing but I must ask one wiser than myself the ramifications of the new bypass pressure spec.

I'm not going to take it for granted that all the aftermarket companies have done sufficient research.

Paul.

Spin9k

...here's what I don't get. From what I've read the bypass is activated primarily for 3 reasons. But the way it works is:

When the differential pressure across the oil filter element exceeds a predetermined value, the bypass valve opens so oil can continue to flow to the engine. Ok so the bypass is NOT based on oil pressure as read by an oil pressure gauge as the bypass valve doesn't have a clue what the "absolute" oil pressure is, only the differential pressure from one side of the filter element to the other.


1) When a cold engine is first started, cold oil can be fairly thick and may not pass through the filter element very easily, depending on temp. So the pressure builds, the bypass valve opens and allows the oil to go around the filter until the oil warms up and flows more easily.

2) When due to a clogged filter the pressure builds. This isn't likely to happen unless you're an idiot and don't change the filter every 50,000 miles, minimum

3) When, after warmup, the quantity of oil flowing thru the filter exceed the filter's ability to pass the oil, the pressure builds and the bypass opens, which can happen likely at higher revs.


From that...the possible differential pressure at MOST would be the MAX absolute oil pressure the oil pump could produce and only if the filter is COMPLETELY clogged. It would never get that high, the bypass would open. In normal use with an unclogged filter the differential would have to be less. Since the V1 spec pump pressure is 50.8psi and the V2 72.5psi, one key thing would seem to be designing a filter that can flow well enough to accomodate the quantity of oil pumped without building a high differntial pressure and activating the bypass.

NOW - as the spec'd oil pressure for either engine version well exceeds the bypass for either filter (17.1psi V1 vs. 26.1psi V2), why wouldn't the newer filter be better, flowing more oil thru it's larger filter area under normal conditions and high rev conditions, and letting thru what exceeds it's bypass anyway during cold start?

What is wrong with that arguement for using the new filter?

Nubo

^^ conversely, does this argue in some way against some of the more extreme viscosity oils, such as 20W50, when used with the 2004-2008 filter?

LPCOKIE

i look at "bob the oil guy" some times and have looked for this kind of information for the Mazda filter. glad we now have some. makes their filter look better and the dealer is reasonable about the price. seems to be a good choice.

ASH8

You want to be careful "which" aftermarket filter you use, some have been shown to be rubbish in their quality...looks OK, but cut them open and filter paper is "Cheap", or very thin, or smaller than it should be, etc., etc.

ASH8

Also let him know my discovery that the new system on the 09 in regard to two EMOP's, well they are not Pumps at all but an elaborate delivery method or actuators with electromagnetic solenoids, ALL the Pumping is done by the engine OIL PUMP, this IMO is why we have seen a large set up in oil pressure values for effective delivery of oil to the nozzles.

Ash

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I have 2 Fram filters , who want it ? I can ship it to them, just pay me postage. like 2 bux.



I use K&N, Mobil1, WiX and OEM. All good ones

teknics

in my opinion theres no reason to not go oem, hell order a box of 30 for sale and just use them up over time. Aftermarket companies STILL cant make a properly sealing oil filter for any cartridge style oil filter used by mazda. And all the seal is is a big rubber o-ring...if they cant emulate a friggin o-ring i dont trust them with filter internals, hell ill take pics of some high end filter manufacturers whose filters are actually damaging the motors theyre in, gimme like a week to collect some good images. And yes it's easy to tell manu's apart, they all use specific o-ring colors, hell one company's o-rings are SQUARED which basically prevents it from sealing at all, customers come in always complaining of a leak then find out its cause they wanted a 9.95 oil change, hell check your coupons, my dealer gives free oil changes 11 months out of the year, then while youre in there, we notice something requiring warranty, to advise and repair and your out in a nice working car for free plus people who know the cars looking at them and using the right tools (most of the time)

as for swapping filters, if you premix you wont worry about a few extra microns of dirt your motor was designed for anywho. The new motors filtering is better most likely, yes, *but* it needs it for different reasons, if your motor doesn't need it to perform as expected why take the chance? save your $2 for some wipers or something.

if mazda felt the oil filter of the s2 rx8 was a concern they would have simply superceded the filter number as they did with older models to my recollection, until you get back to like the repu's bigger filter.

kevin.

ASH8

I think you mean if Mazda felt the oil filter in "S1 rx8 was a concern"?

Mazda still could supersede the S1 Oil filter to the S2's longer style oil filter.
Sometimes super sessions can take months even years...

Spin9k

Since I've been eyeballing these two filters carefully, I've noticed a couple counter-intuitive contruction details. Both seem to have highly restrictive inner walls that let oil out thru from the filter media. This should seem to unnecessarily increase differential pressure under high flow conditions, actually ECOURAGING BYPASS USE!

For example in the V1 filter shown below, you can see the metal inner tube has only relatively few holes for oil. each hole is approx. 1/8" diameter. You can see where they 'skip' two rows of holes in fact. Actually I'd say there's more metal surface than holes. You would think they'd use a free-flowing mesh or at least, put in as many holes as possible, as large as possible. But they don't do anything like that. Strange. Also the filter is labeled "Mazda Motor Parts Europe, S.A.", so not Japanese origin.

V1 filter:




V2 filter is stranger still. The pic is closer so things appear bigger relative to the V1 pic and a bit blurry due to a plastic cover and bad focus thru it....but...given the new filter has about 50% more filter depth to the cartridge, that's 50% greater filter media area. Great! However, they made the tube holes for oil to escape about 1/16", half the size of the V1 (!) AND spaced them out FAR MORE, leaving even greater blocking metal in the tube! More backressure still! In a square area that could accomodate perhaps 9 to 16 holes they have only 5. It seems they are trying to reduce flow even more to maintain the same restrictive properties as the V1 even though they have more filter area. The filter is of a Japanese manufacturer.

I wish an oil filter designer could explain these paradoxes to me

V2 filter:

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Tomorrow I will take some pic of my Mobil1 and K&N up.

LPCOKIE

i have read on other sites that the maker of the filter is korean

Snrub

Of the millions of cars on the road how many of them do you think have OEM filters on them? Seriously?

Canadian Tire (sort of like pep boys meets walmart) sells a base filter with a 89% single pass filtration rating. They're cheap and the o-rings are prone to detach. I can see avoiding that, but basic quaker state and fram filters are used on everything.

Who do you think makes OEM filters anyway? Do you think all the manufacturers they hire specialized producers to make better oil filters? Filters come from a places that produce both aftermarket and OEM applications.

As for the idea of buying 30 OEM filters, that's probably not a bad idea. My biggest pet peeve is that the parts guys at the local dealer are utter idiots and it's been a chronic problem there for the last 8 years that I've owned a Mazda. I can't tell you how many times I've I call up with the part number and they can't find the part! Then they do something to find it themselves and they claim my number was wrong. Later when I pick up the part it's the number I gave them. Then there's failed parts orders, things getting misreported in Mazda's distribution system, etc, etc. It never fails to be a horrible hassle. I get that oil filters are common items so it's not as bad for them, but normally if I have to buy something of value or multiple parts, I order from Mazdamotorsports.

Spin9k

If we could please, this thread is about the two OEM filters, their differences and design. I did not intend, do not want (another) discussion on what other brands of filters are good bad or whatever, or whether we should all use or not use another brand filter, or which are best. I'm sure there are other threads about that topic.

If it's something germane to the topic like nycops offer to look at the difference between an OEM and a 3rd party that's fine. I mainly want to get expert opinions on whether we V1 users can use the V2 filter safely, backed up by scientific/germane facts of course.

Thanks for your understanding

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Yes, differential pressure (delta P).

It's more about the media quality. Some filters are small, but have higher grade media than larger ones.

To OP: use the proper filter. There's a reason for the spec's and form/fit configuration.

rx8dad

Use the correct filter for your application.

If you're interested in the increased capacity of the '09 filter, find a quality aftermarket that will do the job for you.

The OEM replacement for the early RX8 is made by Champion Labs (AC Delco, M1, K&N, and Walmart's Super Tech).

The Purolator/Bosch offerings seem to have a larger can and, with the Purolator PureOne, an improved filtering element.

I haven't compared the Hastings/Baldwin or Wix equivalents for the car but I'm sure they would be great alternates too.

Fortunately, if you are using conventional oil and frequent (3000 mile) changes, most filters will do the job.

ASH8

You can not..REpeat can not fit anything but the original OEM (imported from Mazda Japan, sold by Mazda Dealers), as a larger diameter filter will not fit on 2009 8's.

Neither would a "longer" filter fit as you do not have the room, REmember, 09 filters are relocated to the front timing cover housing LH lower.

Spin9k

Huey52 & RX8dad I appreciate the sentiment 'use the proper filter'. It's easy, safe, hands over authority to someone else with no thought needed or questioning of Mazda's intentions. However, that's not how my mind works, for me if there's a new avenue, I want to know why I should explore it, not just "don't do it, Dad says not to.

I'm looking for a factual, scientific reasoning as to why one can't replace the other. For example, you may be 100% right or 100% wrong, there may be a supply of old filters to get rid of, there may be a change of filter for the '04 to be done when that happens, we don't know yet, but we do have our minds and wits to work out a plausible reasoning, a chance to understand, to the best of our ability what is possible and will work well.

If you have reasoni9ng to back up your assertions, lets hear it out. I'm all ears

PS ASH8...I have the '09 filter here and it fits NO PROBLEM on my '04 in the place of the shorter one. There's even a significant room on top before the firewall. It definitely DOES FIT! The other way around - absolutely you're 100% - nothing other than the OEM for the '09.

ASH8

Yes I have said in THE PAST that the 09 WILL FIT on Series I RX-8's, yes there is room and thread sizes are the SAME...

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

lol, if u do, the filter will always bypass = dirty oil all the time

Hmm, but if I use 09 on 04-08. oil would never bypass (not enough pressure). There should be enough filter media to cover couple thousand miles of dirt ... so bypass or not shouldn't be an issue hmm ... but hmm ...


Oh btw, I was at pepboys today, first time seeing the Royal Purple's "new" oil filter. they're selling it at 14.99 each. I was like "get the hell outa here". what makes it so special that they think they worth 15 bux each ?!

above the oil filter there is a piece of AD that says :

"Royal Purple Oil Change special, 5 qts of Royal Purple Oil + Royal Purple Oil Filter for 49.95 !!!"

.................................................. . *hell no*

Razz1

The name "Royal Purple "

I agree, the paper filter element is more important than the holes.

With reduction in cost and adding that CX7 steering wheel, has anyone checked to see if its a standard Mazda filter on most of the other vehicels?