AT to MT swap
as you a person of do....
if you were charging 50 bucks an hour to do this, how much would it cost, note. 50 bucks an hour would never happen, but.
this is not a diy, unless you have a shop. !!!
but good for you.. give us a total when you have it dialed in.
beers
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
As I mentioned earlier, I would do this job (no rebuild, just a straight used engine drop in with the swap) for a grand in labor. I don't usually do hourly labor, I quote by the job ahead of time whenever possible. Usually my labor works out between 25 and 50 per hour, but due to the intermittent nature of my work schedule, I don't like to do hourly, I like to do flat rate for a job, plus any materials or extra options/modifications.
Again this would obviously not include any PCM programming etc. which would have to be done at a dealer with a WDS/MDS.
Again this would obviously not include any PCM programming etc. which would have to be done at a dealer with a WDS/MDS.
I'll snap his neck.
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From: EVOLV-Chicago
I guess that's the one nice thing about the tall gearing in the 4AT. Even with the 4.77, at highway speed I'm still at only about 3000 rpm at around 70mph. Of course I find it hard to keep it that slow
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
UPDATE:
I managed to track down the ABS module from the same car that the PCM came from. I switched ONLY the black electrical half of that module, onto the existing ABS unit in my car, leaving all the hydraulic line conections untouched. I was able to do this in the car without removing anything except the harness plugs and engine cover. Once I installed the new electronic control unit onto the ABS module, the ABS and TCS lights went off, and the ABS does function properly in my car now (I stabbed the brakes at 30mph to verify). The DSC button also responds normally now and the TCS light is no longer lit, so I assume those functions work properly as well (since they apparently route through the ABS module).
So as of now I have a 100% functional AT to MT swap with cruise, ABS, TCS/DSC, AC, PS, etc. and no CEL or codes. THe only loose end for me to tie up is the trim ring that holds the shift boot in place to the underside of the console trim, which is on order.
I have updated the original post accordingly to prevent confusion among those who might not read the entire thread.
I managed to track down the ABS module from the same car that the PCM came from. I switched ONLY the black electrical half of that module, onto the existing ABS unit in my car, leaving all the hydraulic line conections untouched. I was able to do this in the car without removing anything except the harness plugs and engine cover. Once I installed the new electronic control unit onto the ABS module, the ABS and TCS lights went off, and the ABS does function properly in my car now (I stabbed the brakes at 30mph to verify). The DSC button also responds normally now and the TCS light is no longer lit, so I assume those functions work properly as well (since they apparently route through the ABS module).
So as of now I have a 100% functional AT to MT swap with cruise, ABS, TCS/DSC, AC, PS, etc. and no CEL or codes. THe only loose end for me to tie up is the trim ring that holds the shift boot in place to the underside of the console trim, which is on order.
I have updated the original post accordingly to prevent confusion among those who might not read the entire thread.
UPDATE:
I managed to track down the ABS module from the same car that the PCM came from. I switched ONLY the black electrical half of that module, onto the existing ABS unit in my car, leaving all the hydraulic line conections untouched. I was able to do this in the car without removing anything except the harness plugs and engine cover. Once I installed the new electronic control unit onto the ABS module, the ABS and TCS lights went off, and the ABS does function properly in my car now (I stabbed the brakes at 30mph to verify). The DSC button also responds normally now and the TCS light is no longer lit, so I assume those functions work properly as well (since they apparently route through the ABS module).
So as of now I have a 100% functional AT to MT swap with cruise, ABS, TCS/DSC, AC, PS, etc. and no CEL or codes. THe only loose end for me to tie up is the trim ring that holds the shift boot in place to the underside of the console trim, which is on order.
I have updated the original post accordingly to prevent confusion among those who might not read the entire thread.
I managed to track down the ABS module from the same car that the PCM came from. I switched ONLY the black electrical half of that module, onto the existing ABS unit in my car, leaving all the hydraulic line conections untouched. I was able to do this in the car without removing anything except the harness plugs and engine cover. Once I installed the new electronic control unit onto the ABS module, the ABS and TCS lights went off, and the ABS does function properly in my car now (I stabbed the brakes at 30mph to verify). The DSC button also responds normally now and the TCS light is no longer lit, so I assume those functions work properly as well (since they apparently route through the ABS module).
So as of now I have a 100% functional AT to MT swap with cruise, ABS, TCS/DSC, AC, PS, etc. and no CEL or codes. THe only loose end for me to tie up is the trim ring that holds the shift boot in place to the underside of the console trim, which is on order.
I have updated the original post accordingly to prevent confusion among those who might not read the entire thread.
damn trim ring!!
beers
laulongfei
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: San Francisco,CA
Hey, Rotary Resurrection:
Do you think its possible to use the old AT engine with just MT tranny and clutch with some computer tuning with Cobb access device. Because you knoe its quite expensive buying a MT engine.
Do you think its possible to use the old AT engine with just MT tranny and clutch with some computer tuning with Cobb access device. Because you knoe its quite expensive buying a MT engine.
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
IT would be possible, but you would most likely always have a hard CEL and codes for the lack of auto transmission inputs to the original AT PCM. IT might be something Jeff can take out of the PCM code list, but the dealer said there was definitely no way he could get rid of it, for what it's worth.
Plus you'd still be down about 30-40hp versus a manual engine...UNLESS you already have the 06+ 6 port automatic.
Plus you'd still be down about 30-40hp versus a manual engine...UNLESS you already have the 06+ 6 port automatic.
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
IT would be possible to simply put a flywheel-back MT drivetrain behind an existing 04-05 4 port AT engine...in this case you would not generate any more hp, but more hp would make it to the wheels so it would feel like a 15-25hp increase versus the old slushbox.
The 40hp increase would come from a 6 port engine with 6 port intake, and MT PCM programmed for 9000+rpm. In reality, the 4 port and 6 port engines seem to make similar power up to the 7000rpm limit of the 4 port. The additional HP from the 6 port MT comes because it can rev higher and flow more air, and of course the PCM has to be able to control it, so it needs to be swapped too.
So short answer, yes the way I have done the swap, I got the 40hp increase (at the engine) and closer to 60-70 at the wheels (auto's seem to dyno 130 at the wheels and manuals 190-210), so it depends on how you look at it.
This hasn't taken into account the 06+ AT cars that already had the 6 port engine, but had the AT PCM programming and low redline.
The 40hp increase would come from a 6 port engine with 6 port intake, and MT PCM programmed for 9000+rpm. In reality, the 4 port and 6 port engines seem to make similar power up to the 7000rpm limit of the 4 port. The additional HP from the 6 port MT comes because it can rev higher and flow more air, and of course the PCM has to be able to control it, so it needs to be swapped too.
So short answer, yes the way I have done the swap, I got the 40hp increase (at the engine) and closer to 60-70 at the wheels (auto's seem to dyno 130 at the wheels and manuals 190-210), so it depends on how you look at it.
This hasn't taken into account the 06+ AT cars that already had the 6 port engine, but had the AT PCM programming and low redline.
IT would be possible to simply put a flywheel-back MT drivetrain behind an existing 04-05 4 port AT engine...in this case you would not generate any more hp, but more hp would make it to the wheels so it would feel like a 15-25hp increase versus the old slushbox.
The 40hp increase would come from a 6 port engine with 6 port intake, and MT PCM programmed for 9000+rpm. In reality, the 4 port and 6 port engines seem to make similar power up to the 7000rpm limit of the 4 port. The additional HP from the 6 port MT comes because it can rev higher and flow more air, and of course the PCM has to be able to control it, so it needs to be swapped too.
So short answer, yes the way I have done the swap, I got the 40hp increase (at the engine) and closer to 60-70 at the wheels (auto's seem to dyno 130 at the wheels and manuals 190-210), so it depends on how you look at it.
This hasn't taken into account the 06+ AT cars that already had the 6 port engine, but had the AT PCM programming and low redline.
The 40hp increase would come from a 6 port engine with 6 port intake, and MT PCM programmed for 9000+rpm. In reality, the 4 port and 6 port engines seem to make similar power up to the 7000rpm limit of the 4 port. The additional HP from the 6 port MT comes because it can rev higher and flow more air, and of course the PCM has to be able to control it, so it needs to be swapped too.
So short answer, yes the way I have done the swap, I got the 40hp increase (at the engine) and closer to 60-70 at the wheels (auto's seem to dyno 130 at the wheels and manuals 190-210), so it depends on how you look at it.
This hasn't taken into account the 06+ AT cars that already had the 6 port engine, but had the AT PCM programming and low redline.
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
If you already have the 6 port engine, you can reuse that without swapping it. I am not sure, but it should have the same injectors and sensors as the MT 6p.
You'd still need the MT pcm, engine wiring harness (since the transmission control wires are part of the engine harness), starter, flywheel (a lightweight aftermarket flywheel would be a direct bolt on in this case as well), driveshaft, shift stuff, clutch pedals, clutch hydraulics, clutch kit, etc.
You'd still need the MT pcm, engine wiring harness (since the transmission control wires are part of the engine harness), starter, flywheel (a lightweight aftermarket flywheel would be a direct bolt on in this case as well), driveshaft, shift stuff, clutch pedals, clutch hydraulics, clutch kit, etc.
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
And you'd also need to find a way to engineer the 6 ports to be open...since the 4 port PCM is not going to be able to operate the additional valves. Even if you get the 6 port PCM with the engine, you probably couldn't use it, because it expects to see a trans with 6 speeds instead of 4, so likely the shifting would be screwed up if you tried that.
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I have a question...any of you guys know that the 4speed AT in japan is called type-E and the 6 -speed MT is called type -S, and the 4 port engine not only comes with 4 speed auto but a 5 speed MT
is that possible the swap our 4 speed auto to 5 speed MT so that we dont have to change so many stuff,just change the trannie and the computer??
is that possible the swap our 4 speed auto to 5 speed MT so that we dont have to change so many stuff,just change the trannie and the computer??
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
quote from post above:
You could probably just keep the existing PCM, and you'd have some error lights to deal with. Or you could swap the PCM if you could find the proper one from the MT model.
I wonder...are the 5sp transmissions any stronger or more reliable than the aisin 6 speed units? What are the gear ratios of the 5sp transmission plus rear end final drive ratio?
IT would be possible to simply put a flywheel-back MT drivetrain behind an existing 04-05 4 port AT engine...in this case you would not generate any more hp, but more hp would make it to the wheels so it would feel like a 15-25hp increase versus the old slushbox.
I wonder...are the 5sp transmissions any stronger or more reliable than the aisin 6 speed units? What are the gear ratios of the 5sp transmission plus rear end final drive ratio?
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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From: east of Knoxville, TN
multiple and consistent supply of parts cars would be required for such a "kit" and I am not really interested in paying 3-4 grand of my own money up front for a wrecked rx8 from insurance auctions so I can sell MT swap "kits" for what the members here are no doubt willing to pay (2 grand or so max, plus some labor, I'd guess) and then having to try and sell the small parts of the rest of the car off on ebay or elsewhere to make my money back off the car.
