BigBadChris and the little turbo RX8
 

Okay folks, it's that time again....a newb starting a turbo build.

I've owned the car for about a year, 2005 4 port with 31k miles. It has been good to me, but it just needs more power. (Cue Tim Taylor sound effects)

I have upgraded what I can, including a SOHN adapter, switched to 10/30 Idemitsu synthetic, did the cooling fan upgrade and the first $100 mods. I also did a full tune up at 30k miles. That helped a lot, new plugs, coils and wires. Also did a deep clean on the throttle body / accordion tube, and added a catch can.

Here is my build list. (Yes it's a turbo 4 port, please don't tell me to sell the car and Get the one with three pedals. The car was a gift, so I am keeping it and making it my own). This is not a pie in the sky "this is what I want" thread, I am ready to go. I just want some collective wisdom before clicking "buy it now"

Top mount turbo kit (67mm ball bearing Precision Turbo)
Air to air inter cooler
Waste gate plumbed to recirculate
New motor mounts
High capacity oil pan
Second oil cooler - bought on eBay for twenty bucks!
Stainless steel oil lines
BHR automatic radiator -just bought it in the for sale section
Racing beat triple gauge set - oil temp, oil pressure, water temp
Lotek dash gauge pod
autometer boost gauge
autometer wideband analog AFR
autometer fuel pressure gauge (not 100% on this one)
Mazdaspeed exhaust (heard it in person, loved it)

I have been told that under 300hp, my stock fuel injectors are good to go. I also saw from 09factor and others that they upgraded their injectors, so I am a little unsure about this.

My current plan is to tune via Accesport. I have not found a tuner in the Dallas area, so I will probably be doing it via the MM service.

Most importantly, I am paying someone to install it. I do not have the mechanical ability to do something like this, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Any input would be greatly appreciated

How much hp and whp do are you suppose to get from these mods?

Sell it an buy a manual and turbo that or don't turbocharge it at all.

*Agree with 9k but if you are intent on turboing the AT be aware that somewhere around 260whp is the limit of what the AT can handle safely .
*You will need to upgrade the injectors probably as there are only 4 of them . (6 port has 6)
*67mm turbo is way too big ... A stock greddy kit is ideal for a 4 port AT

62mm is probably more then the renesis could ever handle.

67mm turbo is REW territory, sorry lol.

Also agree with what 9k said.

All due respect, 9k, but that is not an option. I was very polite in asking that people not suggest I sell the car. It's in the AT specific section for a reason. You don't like AT builds? Please don't comment in the AT forum. Automatic or manual, high power or low power, we were all drawn to this car for a reason. We appreciate its unique style, it's mechanical achievement, or "turning on rails" handling. Either way, it's all about the rx8. Let's focus on that, and not the way I change gears, ok?

As for those frowning on the size of the turbo, it is a used Mazsport kit. The kit was recently uninstalled by Scott at Rx8Performance.com and he gave me an excellent price. There are many many posts about the Mazsport type 3 kit, it's power levels, and it's capabilities. I don't need to rehash any of that here. Likewise, please do not dig up the Mazsport saga, and that of Scott himself. I have had nothing but great experiences thus far , and I will continue to do business with him. You don't like it, please don't comment here. This is a build thread, not a "what happened in 2008 and I'm still not over it" thread.

I am well aware of the limit that a slushbox puts on the system, and we are going to keep it under control. I am absolutely going to use an electronic boost control, because 13 psi and 330+ whp is just too much, both for me and the 4 speed. I have read the AT threads, and there are people out there that have not destroyed the 4 speed unit, I hope to be one of them.

Yes, a Greddy kit would have been a good fit, it's a small turbo that comes on early. Unfortunately I did not have any luck procuring one, so you make the best of it and move on. I am looking forward to building the first Mazsport automatic turbo.

Stay tuned.

op a few things

the guys posting about the snail size all have a lot of experience boosting an 8

a good friend of mine started with a greddy kit (bnr) and only made ~15hp more than my 6mt with his auto

and it doesnt matter, you will get 9ks opinion if you want it or not. hes usually right about 8s tho

Hello again, 200.mph

Yes, it's a big honking turbo. The only point I was trying to make was that this was a kit, designed by someone else. I did not just find a turbo on eBay and decide to put it in my 8. I understand that it's big, angry, pants on fire Performance. If I'm going to blow up my engine or transmission, at least I'm going to do it with a smile on my face.

ok but fyi that "kit" ive personally seen trying to get tuned on a dyno and it was on a 6 port. didnt go well. not bustin your balls jussayyin

Well, Scott is tuning it himself, so I am hoping for the best. I understand a lot of you have opinions about the guy. That's fine.

But we can all agree that the best person to install and program anything is the guy that designed it. That's for cars, computers, building a house, anything

:lol: Man, you are in for a long ride. This will be an important lesson for you to learn though. And no we cannot agree, the best person to install it and program anything is the best person for the job, not the person that designed it. I wouldn't let ( MOD EDIT: personal attack removed) Scott program the clock on my microwave. But you sound set in your ways and like to learn the hard way and I was like that so you will just have to learn the hard way.

I gotta agree with most of the guys here, but do what you want. Seeing that it is the 4 port and AT, have you thought of meth/water injection? Supposedly it helps a lot with carbon buildup, which is a concern you should have, among many others...

Edit: I know it(meth/water injection) has been discussed somewhere here before, but I can't find the link.

scott designed his "kit" in florida on a local friends car who had it shipped down there. he had his car over a year and after he got it running (not well i might add) he used it to demo to potential customers until my buddy and his wife sued him. hes a member here but hasnt been active for a while but these are facts. ill give you his screen name if you like. ive know him over 15years. his car is now in upstate ny (still his) not running right and was turned into a bagged show car

ATTENTION!

Anymore personal attacks on current/former vendors or members will be handled with a vacation from the site.

I don't care what your personal thoughts are, keep it above the belt. The OP has already stated he doesn't want to go through the history or "saga"
As he put it.

Any further comments which derail this thread from its intended purpose will be deleted.
Thanks

Travis

Is this a new rule or are you just making them up as you go along?

travis facts do not=personal thoughts

Scott since when are personal attacks allowed?

Jesse, the op already said he doesn't care. It's a build thread, leave it at that

Travis

Oh I thought that rule specifically stated personal attacks against members. Duly noted. Carry on.

ANYWAY.

BigBadChris,

As noted previously, your choice of hardware is flawed and your expected results are skewed. You might want to rethink your plan all together and do a little more homework before you start buying things. And there were some issues with the BHR radiators as of late so you may want to get it pressure tested and cleaned at a rad shop before installing it. A buddy of mine also had fitment issues with his BHR radiator so keep that in mind as well.

As for the kit, any kit can be "fixed" should problems arise but you need to consider the cost and your ability to have that done.

I'm sorry, but can we all take a moment to address the real issue here, It's just staring me right in the face and I can't let it pass any longer.












Brettus' Avatar... BBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBSSSSS my GAWD Man those are some wondrous dirty pillows!!!!!

:lol:, you would have loved MM's avatar's.

@ 9k

I appreciate the heads up on the radiator. I saw a similar note in the thread where I bought the rad. I have made plans to have it pressure tested. If it fails, back on the For Sale section it goes.

Please, I am genuinely interested. Are you saying the Mazsport kits are flawed, or the Garrett (Precision) turbo, or the entire theory of a turbo 4AT? What exactly is wrong with my expectations? I expect with more air and more fuel, my car will go faster. I expect that with a faster car, I will enjoy driving the car more. I also understand that FI, of any flavor, will decrease engine life. I have budgeted for a rebuild at some point in the future. I never said I was trying to hit 362, 338, or even 300 whp (which has been dyno'd on this kit). I would be fine with 250 whp (still a hundred more than stock!!!). However, a Greddy kit was not available during the build window that I have. The Greddy kit wasn't perfect. MM did a lot to help it along with his turbo upgrade, I have to admit that was on the wish list too. The Petit kits are too expensive for my budget. This kit fit my budget, along with the install and tuning costs, and my upgrade goals.

@ Love Hounds

I have indeed looked at a water/methanol kit! I was reading some of those threads here last night. That is on my wish list for this project, but it might have to get pushed back until the fall when my second job kicks back in. Anything that lowers the temps and can reduce the possibility of knock is a win win in my book.

@ 200.mph

I am sorry to hear that your friend had a bad experience with his car. I feel like I can trust Scott with my car and my money.

@ Gravey

I have completely lost my train of thought several times reading Brettus's posts.

@ Anyone

I would really like some feedback on gauges, preventative maintenance, and the like. I am concerned about how any modified PCM behaves. Can it still detect a misfire? If you hide the CELs, how do you know if you have a real problem? (There are some problems that won't show up on a gauge, we don't have enough gauges to cover every CEL).

If you don't understand why that turbo is a bad idea on a 4 port AT (or Renesis in general actually) then you don't need to be turbocharging anything. And a Precision is not a Garret turbo and the main problem with that kit will be tuning.

Yes sir, I know that a Precision is not a Garrett. I know that Scott is currently a Precision dealer. I know that for a long time, Precision sold Garretts with upgraded internals. I know that they then turned around and marketed their upgrades, which irritated Garrett, leading them to be cut off as reseller, and they (Precision) had to market their own stuff. I also know that while these kits were in production, Scott had a delay in production because of a hold up with the supplier....Garrett. What I do not know, since I have not seen the unit, is if it is a Garrett or a Precision.

Since you are the guru, please, educate me. Save me from my ignorance.

I think your biggest issure will be the boost profile.

That big of a turbo would be overkill on a manual at 9000 rpm. When you shift you fall to 6000-6500 depending on shift points. The turbo will stay spooled well.

On a car with a 7500 rpm redline. you will probably drop to 4500 RPM or so when you shift. At 4.5K rpm the turbo will not be spooling hard. Just as the turbo start spooling up good again it'll be time to shift.

@ logalinipoo

Thank you for your quick, simple reply.

Scott has offered to swap out the hot side to a smaller inlet, to help it spool a bit quicker. Will it fix things completely? No. Will it help? Yes. Its a big ass turbo, I have not been shy about that. Correct me if Im wrong, but I just use boost to accelerate. Once Im up to speed, Im good. In a 4 speed car, you don't need to shift that often before you're over the speed limit. All I want is quicker acceleration....Zoom Zoom.

The smaler hotside will help. IT will vary with every application. My ct2-6065 will only produce 3 psi or so from 3000 to 3500 rpm. Then it will build up to 6 psi (my current setting) almost imediately. That's with a 0.62AR hot side.

I am just guessing , but you won't start developing boost until over 4K, and probably not signifigant levels until 4500. So you have 3000 rpm of boost at most. Where as on a manual with a smaller turbo it will give me 5500 rpm of boost.

Go for a drive and record the rpm it shifts at and what it drops to. Then you'll see how small of a rnage you might actually have for your turbo to operate in.

Good advice, and thank for your the anecdote about your turbo and its A/R. I believe I am looking at a .67 impeller cover. I am sure I could procure an even smaller one if necessary. You're right, I do not have as much rpm to play with, but I am usually speeding by the time I am out of second gear as it is.

I will record shift points and ranges tonight. I also planned on raising the rev limit with the AP. Certainly not raising it to 6 port levels, but it is my understanding that it can go to 8 without issue.

The fact your speeding by then is exactly why this setup will really suck for you. The turbo will never really start spinning good. The thing I like most about min is. While cursing down the highway. I press the pedal and hear it spool up and pull without even shifting.



I wouldn't worry about it overall too much. If you already have it and it is used. Try it. it's not like you'll reduce the sale price by trying it. If it doesn't work, go with smaller.

What will you be using for the tuning? The Microwreck? I don't recall the intake setup on the Type 3 but my only design gripe with the kit is the wastegate placement, it is horrible IMO.

The turbo should spin real good in first, and then I'm in second and where I need to be. The dyno sheets I have seen show the turbo topping out on power right around 7500 rpm, which happens to be my shift point.

I just want some seat of the pants power. You're right, if it doesn't work, ill sell the turbo and buy a smaller one. Everything else will be usable. Intake, intercooler, and all the cooling mods I have done.

@ 9k

We have discussed the Interceptor and the Cobb AP. I think the Cobb has more functionality and is more serviceable, but I leave that up to the tuner. I have neither the inclination nor the time to learn to tune myself. As far as I know, the waste gate has been plumbed to recirculate into the down pipe.

And is he a Cobb protuner? I doubt it. And yes it is plumbed, it is the placement that bugs me, it should be as close to the turbine inlet as possible.

As for that turbo and boost, drivability, etc. You will learn. Unless you happen to live near the autobahn.

I have not seen the kit in person, so I cannot comment about the waste gate itself.

As for his credentials for the AP, I didn't ask. I am going to drop this subject because it is talking about the person, not the build. It is my preference that the car be tuned via the Cobb system. It is more recent, has more functionality, and is supported by many more tuners than the Interceptor, which is a proprietary product. I freely admit it is not a good idea to have a car that needs to be trucked across state lines if there is a problem with my tune.

As for drivability, yes, I am going to learn quite a bit. The stock car is grossly lacking in some areas. This is going to change the car, dramatically. No, I do not live near the autobahn, but I have plenty of highway onramps and flying overpasses.

Well tuning is key, I cannot stress that enough. Many over look this or waste time with tuners who say they can do it when in reality they can't because they just don't have the experience with Turbo RX-8's. So learn what you can about that, trust me.

And trust me, once turbo you won't spend as much time at high RPM's as you think, :lol:

I agree with you 100% about the tune. There is a local rotary shop here in Dallas, but I could not do the work there because they could not tune a turbo car. No experience with turbo rx8. They have installed greddy kits and Emanage, but their dyno is not ready yet so no tune for me. I could have installed it and done internet tune, but I wanted it all to be done at once. Build, test it, tune it, fix it if need be.

page 2 boobs ...

Brettus, you should be the official club morale officer. Just post when a thread needs a lift

Thought the thread needed some levity ! heh .

Getting back to the turbo ................ made for 935 piston whp or 660ish rotary whp . You are talking maybe 260whp on your AT . It's just a money wasting exercise to even try it IMO.Even with a 0.63 housing the spoolup will be poor .
I strongly suggest you sell the turbo ... you should get reasonable money for it if in reasonable condition .
Then get something like a 5558 . Not only will it make the same power (based on the constraints of your drivetrain) , but it will spool really well and improve the driving dynamics tenfold !

Dude, you are in Dallas?!!!!!!!!! Get with Steve Kan, don't even think about anyone else. He is my tuner and a few other local turbo guys here in San Antonio, Austin, and Houston. He has tuned many supercharged and turbocharged RX-8's successfully all over the country and out of the country. People fly him all over to tune their cars. He is the man.

He is a Cobb pro tuner and an adaptronic supplier/tuner. He can also tune a bunch of other platforms, everything from stock cars to diesel trucks. But rotaries are where his heart is at. he is also an excellent fabricator.


PRT Performance | Lewisville Performance Shop | Dallas Auto Services | Dyno Tuning

Thank you 9k, thank you Brettus. It took a while to get here, but this is good information. You two are some of the most experienced people on this forum. I appreciate your input. I will make some calls in the morning.

I think so many people don't understand how good a fast spooling turbo is for street work . IMO fitting a turbo to a street car is about the fun you can have driving it ... which means midrange is all important . Having a big ass turbo is way overrated !

I agree, the problem is people just get so caught up on peak HP figures that it skews their view of things. That happens in every platform, people just go for HP figures regardless of whether they can put than power down or not.

Chris buys a big stinking turbo, he's a fool and it must be sold. Brettus buys a big turbo (62mm not 67mm) and its "time to get serious". How strange, considering all rx8s behave the same at low rpm, because the variable duct isn't open and your aux ports have not kicked in yet.

Just calling it like I see it....

:lol: I can see how you might take it that way, however there is a lot you are not considering .

* You have an AT , the AT itself is a limiting factor in how much power you can make.
* You have a 4 port , also a limiting factor .Although this wont affect spoolup , a 4 port is effectively a smaller engine passed the 6000rpm mark.
* You are fitting a top mount turbo , so spoolup will already be compromised by this design . A bigger turbo exacerbates this design compromise. I would guess with your setup that full spool will be between 4500 and 5000 , you won't appreciate how bad that is until you drive a car with a resposive turbo.
*Yours is 67mm mine is 62 ........ quite a bit bigger in real terms.
*I actually plan to utilise the full flow my turbo has to offer , you don't ( and can't).
*I have experience with boosting at the limit and tuning/wrenching/trouble shooting .... you don't.
*I really wouldn't be too concerned if I blew my engine/transmission up , you ....???

The AT is a problem yes, but I will take action to address it. It is my understanding that it will start to complain as power levels climb. The beauty of electronic boost control means I can stop at whatever level that is. The thing won't just throw gears across the shop the minute I go into boost.

Yes, I can't rev like you do, but if full spool happens BELOW 6k (when the six ports kick in), aren't we equals until 6k?

The dyno I saw of this kit shows boost happening as low as 3500, but Max power is at 7500. Maybe I'm being naive here, but isn't any boost better than where I am now?

Yes, the manifold is in a much different spot. I trust my builder, he wouldn't have sold the kit if it didn't work. We will see what happens when my car hits the dyno. Honestly tho, aren't we talking about the difference of a few cubic feet between my manifold and yours?

Also, I think I have one huge advantage that the stick shifting crowd does not. My throttle position stays when I shift gears. I can stand on the brakes, make boost, and let go of the brake. When you guys shift gears, you have to let go of the throttle, even for a split second.

I have a local rotary mechanic who has been in the business a long time. He has built and repaired rx7 and rx8 engines. The only reason I am not working with him is that he was not familiar with this kit. He wanted to charge a lot more to install it because of the labor time. This person is also close to my builder. I am confident that anything that pops up, they can fix.

I said in my first post I have budgeted for a rebuild. I have an ideal price for this project, but only a fool adds boost to a car without knowing it could literally blow up in his face.

I'm not talking about boost "as low as" 3500 ....I'm talking about fully spooled up by 3500 . Until you have driven cars with a responsive turbo you wont appreciate how much more fun to drive they really are . BTW ... it's not only at low rpm that it matters .

There are a couple of guys here with top mounts (and similar sized turbos) that I have raced from a rolling start ... It really is a joke how much quicker my (low mount) car is than theirs .

It is a Mazsport type 3 top mount, being installed by the man who designed it.

Sorry wrong thread.......