Why tuning for average power wins races
03-09-2005, 12:43 PM
#1
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Why tuning for average power wins races
This rant may or may not belong is this section, but I think its an important concept for the tuning for FI or NA.
Everyone seems concerned these days with Peak HP. Now that the turbo’s are out, it’s the usual lets see how much HP I can make game, without much concern for the power curve of the car.
We’ve all heard that average HP and TQ win races, but few people seem to tune for a power band, just for the biggest dyno number. The most extreme examples being the 1200HP supra’s that grace the import tuning mags.
Well, BMW finally did something good other than not screwing up the 3series. I got my Car and Driver yesterday with the full test of the 2006 330I with a 6spd manual and they proved why average power, not peak, not only feels fast, but wins in a straight line as well.
The 2006 330I has BMW’s new 3.0L engine with all the variable valve goodies, which makes 255HP @6660RPM and 220TQ at 2750RPM. So whats the big deal with that? Hell the Toyota Avalon makes more power than that, and my grandmother drives one. So does the new Altima, Maxima, Acura TL, and prolly a few more I’m forgetting.
So whats my point? Well the new 330i which is 150lb heavier than the old model, with their new engine, does a 0-60 in 5.6sec and a street start (5-60) in 6.0 flat! It does this because the engines TQ curve is flat as a board from 2750rpm on up. All that new variable valve technology allows the engine to operate at a ridiculous level of efficiency. Rather than aim for some stupid high HP number, they created a sedan that is as fast or faster than every sport coupe on the market currently by making good use of average power. And it gets better mileage, and its again, 150lb heavier than the older model.
Lets all make a point to learn something from this. As we tune the rx8 for more power, be it a NA or a turbo, what counts is average power levels. Not only is it more fun to drive cuz you have more access to it, your car is going to be faster as well.
So before you decide to slap the biggest turbo you can find on the car or decide to bore your ports out to the point you can reach through them with your hand, put some thoughts into our cars power band. I'm willing to be that a small quick spoiling turbo is going make for a much faster RX8 than the guy with a margine diesel size turbo.
end rant:
Everyone seems concerned these days with Peak HP. Now that the turbo’s are out, it’s the usual lets see how much HP I can make game, without much concern for the power curve of the car.
We’ve all heard that average HP and TQ win races, but few people seem to tune for a power band, just for the biggest dyno number. The most extreme examples being the 1200HP supra’s that grace the import tuning mags.
Well, BMW finally did something good other than not screwing up the 3series. I got my Car and Driver yesterday with the full test of the 2006 330I with a 6spd manual and they proved why average power, not peak, not only feels fast, but wins in a straight line as well.
The 2006 330I has BMW’s new 3.0L engine with all the variable valve goodies, which makes 255HP @6660RPM and 220TQ at 2750RPM. So whats the big deal with that? Hell the Toyota Avalon makes more power than that, and my grandmother drives one. So does the new Altima, Maxima, Acura TL, and prolly a few more I’m forgetting.
So whats my point? Well the new 330i which is 150lb heavier than the old model, with their new engine, does a 0-60 in 5.6sec and a street start (5-60) in 6.0 flat! It does this because the engines TQ curve is flat as a board from 2750rpm on up. All that new variable valve technology allows the engine to operate at a ridiculous level of efficiency. Rather than aim for some stupid high HP number, they created a sedan that is as fast or faster than every sport coupe on the market currently by making good use of average power. And it gets better mileage, and its again, 150lb heavier than the older model.
Lets all make a point to learn something from this. As we tune the rx8 for more power, be it a NA or a turbo, what counts is average power levels. Not only is it more fun to drive cuz you have more access to it, your car is going to be faster as well.
So before you decide to slap the biggest turbo you can find on the car or decide to bore your ports out to the point you can reach through them with your hand, put some thoughts into our cars power band. I'm willing to be that a small quick spoiling turbo is going make for a much faster RX8 than the guy with a margine diesel size turbo.
end rant:
Last edited by brillo; 03-09-2005 at 12:48 PM.
03-09-2005, 02:30 PM
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True....but what do us guys that know nothing about tuning an engine do? LOL
How do you tune an ECU anyway? With Canzoomer or E-Manage type equipment? If so, where do I go to learn to tune an engine? I would love to have the knowledge to be able to mess with my car's tuning but this is something I have no clue about.
I love the BMW 3 series...they have always done more with less than ALOT of other cars!
How do you tune an ECU anyway? With Canzoomer or E-Manage type equipment? If so, where do I go to learn to tune an engine? I would love to have the knowledge to be able to mess with my car's tuning but this is something I have no clue about.
I love the BMW 3 series...they have always done more with less than ALOT of other cars!
03-09-2005, 02:33 PM
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There are LOTS of threads on how to tune emanage and CZ units on this forum. It's not tooOO hard. On NA engines you'd be hard pressed to blow your engine up.
I did a little of it.
I did a little of it.
Originally Posted by rx8wannahave
True....but what do us guys that know nothing about tuning an engine do? LOL
How do you tune an ECU anyway? With Canzoomer or E-Manage type equipment? If so, where do I go to learn to tune an engine? I would love to have the knowledge to be able to mess with my car's tuning but this is something I have no clue about.
I love the BMW 3 series...they have always done more with less than ALOT of other cars!
How do you tune an ECU anyway? With Canzoomer or E-Manage type equipment? If so, where do I go to learn to tune an engine? I would love to have the knowledge to be able to mess with my car's tuning but this is something I have no clue about.
I love the BMW 3 series...they have always done more with less than ALOT of other cars!
03-09-2005, 02:43 PM
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Well, I will have to go read up on this because I would not mind getting another 10HP while improveing the fuel economy and maybe per brillo....build a better power band for the 8.
Just makes sense...
Just makes sense...
03-09-2005, 02:45 PM
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That's why I love my Greddy Turbo kit. Midrange tq. It applies the hp & tq where the car needs it the most. From 2500 rpm to 7500 rpm the tq & hp difference is noticeable. I love the power of the car now, whereas sometimes before just driving on the street I sometimes got frustrated because of the lack of low/mid end power.
03-09-2005, 02:50 PM
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You guys make me antsy. But I want to wait and see what else comes out in the next year or so!
I would have a real problem with shutting my car down hot here in FL, and I'm not the type to be patient enough to remember to let it cool down. So I'm waiting to see what SC options are coming out.
I would have a real problem with shutting my car down hot here in FL, and I'm not the type to be patient enough to remember to let it cool down. So I'm waiting to see what SC options are coming out.
Originally Posted by Fanman
That's why I love my Greddy Turbo kit. Midrange tq. It applies the hp & tq where the car needs it the most. From 2500 rpm to 7500 rpm the tq & hp difference is noticeable. I love the power of the car now, whereas sometimes before just driving on the street I sometimes got frustrated because of the lack of low/mid end power.
03-09-2005, 03:02 PM
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whereas sometimes before just driving on the street I sometimes got frustrated because of the lack of low/mid end power.
From reading all the technical stuff on this website...I have LOTZ to learn!
Also, from what I've seen the Greddy kit seems like a good deal...$8K Turbo's or SC....are way too rich for my blood!
03-09-2005, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rx8wannahave
Yeah...after owning it for 3 months I can finally relate to that. Sometimes in 3rd (and this could be my fault and not the car) I feel like at the lower rpm's I just lack the OMMMFFFF I'm looking for. In 1st & 2nd I really enjoy it and while 3rd does pull hard...in the lower rpm's it's a little lacking.
03-09-2005, 03:20 PM
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If you're doing 25 - 35 mph in 3rd gear you wont be seeing any power =) Now, 85 in 3rd is a different story.
Originally Posted by rx8wannahave
Yeah...after owning it for 3 months I can finally relate to that. Sometimes in 3rd (and this could be my fault and not the car) I feel like at the lower rpm's I just lack the OMMMFFFF I'm looking for. In 1st & 2nd I really enjoy it and while 3rd does pull hard...in the lower rpm's it's a little lacking.
From reading all the technical stuff on this website...I have LOTZ to learn!
Also, from what I've seen the Greddy kit seems like a good deal...$8K Turbo's or SC....are way too rich for my blood!
From reading all the technical stuff on this website...I have LOTZ to learn!
Also, from what I've seen the Greddy kit seems like a good deal...$8K Turbo's or SC....are way too rich for my blood!
03-09-2005, 03:58 PM
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Brillo or anyone,
I will read that mag eventually, but what was the as tested price on the 330? I know this is a new engine but did the old engine have VVT?
Also what is the weight? All those other cars (I think) weigh more than the 330 and besides maybe the TL aren't even in it's class but if the new 330 is $40k like the last one the TL is $5k cheaper so it can get away with the lower hp than the other cars. And I'm pretty sure those Jap cars you mentioned already use VVT (vvt-i) etc. I don't think BMW is doing anything super special.
I will read that mag eventually, but what was the as tested price on the 330? I know this is a new engine but did the old engine have VVT?
Also what is the weight? All those other cars (I think) weigh more than the 330 and besides maybe the TL aren't even in it's class but if the new 330 is $40k like the last one the TL is $5k cheaper so it can get away with the lower hp than the other cars. And I'm pretty sure those Jap cars you mentioned already use VVT (vvt-i) etc. I don't think BMW is doing anything super special.
03-09-2005, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by army_rx8
^^we all know this..but it isn't our fault we drive in the 7k rpm range..the car just seems to like it there:D
What bearings? In the tranny/clutch?
If it is the tranny/clutch that is idiotic that Mazda puts out a car with a 9K rpm redline with a drivetrain that cant consistently handle shifts above 7K.
03-09-2005, 05:33 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by guy321
I would have a real problem with shutting my car down hot here in FL, and I'm not the type to be patient enough to remember to let it cool down. So I'm waiting to see what SC options are coming out.
03-09-2005, 06:52 PM
#18
Originally Posted by czr
Brillo or anyone,
I will read that mag eventually, but what was the as tested price on the 330? I know this is a new engine but did the old engine have VVT?
Also what is the weight? All those other cars (I think) weigh more than the 330 and besides maybe the TL aren't even in it's class but if the new 330 is $40k like the last one the TL is $5k cheaper so it can get away with the lower hp than the other cars. And I'm pretty sure those Jap cars you mentioned already use VVT (vvt-i) etc. I don't think BMW is doing anything super special.
I will read that mag eventually, but what was the as tested price on the 330? I know this is a new engine but did the old engine have VVT?
Also what is the weight? All those other cars (I think) weigh more than the 330 and besides maybe the TL aren't even in it's class but if the new 330 is $40k like the last one the TL is $5k cheaper so it can get away with the lower hp than the other cars. And I'm pretty sure those Jap cars you mentioned already use VVT (vvt-i) etc. I don't think BMW is doing anything super special.
i'm not sure on all the specs on the new E90 3 series, but BMW has always been very keen on weight distribution on all their vehicles. even though i'm not 100% sure, i believe i'm safe to say, all those other cars listed in the same class as the E90 do not have 50/50 weight ratio (new magnesium blocks :D). rear wheel drive will have better traction than front wheel drive.
i think the average-power-wins-races is just common sense. how many times on a track will the car reach it's full max power?? unless you're on superspeedway 1000hp car won't do jack on the track. heck, there are so many other variable that need to be accounted for other than power. going back to basics just shows that power isn't everything. for example, the only thing that comes in contact with the road and the car are the tires. you have shitty tires, you won't win races. why do you think most race events have power regulations etc.?? to make it fair between all teams. JGTC GT300 limits all cars to a max 300hp. it all depends on what the given situation is.
i remember watching one of those Best Motoring videos where two AE86s are up against an R34 skyline. skyline ends up losing.
Last edited by Im_DANomite; 03-09-2005 at 09:27 PM.
03-09-2005, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by guy321
You guys make me antsy. But I want to wait and see what else comes out in the next year or so!
03-09-2005, 08:59 PM
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I was under the impression that most of the newer BMW engine's performance improvements are the result of direct injection, as opposed to VV technology. did they say anything about that in the C&D?
03-10-2005, 07:57 AM
#23
Originally Posted by brillo
This rant may or may not belong is this section, but I think its an important concept for the tuning for FI or NA.
Everyone seems concerned these days with Peak HP. Now that the turbo’s are out, it’s the usual lets see how much HP I can make game, without much concern for the power curve of the car.
We’ve all heard that average HP and TQ win races, but few people seem to tune for a power band, just for the biggest dyno number. The most extreme examples being the 1200HP supra’s that grace the import tuning mags.
Well, BMW finally did something good other than not screwing up the 3series. I got my Car and Driver yesterday with the full test of the 2006 330I with a 6spd manual and they proved why average power, not peak, not only feels fast, but wins in a straight line as well.
The 2006 330I has BMW’s new 3.0L engine with all the variable valve goodies, which makes 255HP @6660RPM and 220TQ at 2750RPM. So whats the big deal with that? Hell the Toyota Avalon makes more power than that, and my grandmother drives one. So does the new Altima, Maxima, Acura TL, and prolly a few more I’m forgetting.
So whats my point? Well the new 330i which is 150lb heavier than the old model, with their new engine, does a 0-60 in 5.6sec and a street start (5-60) in 6.0 flat! It does this because the engines TQ curve is flat as a board from 2750rpm on up. All that new variable valve technology allows the engine to operate at a ridiculous level of efficiency. Rather than aim for some stupid high HP number, they created a sedan that is as fast or faster than every sport coupe on the market currently by making good use of average power. And it gets better mileage, and its again, 150lb heavier than the older model.
Lets all make a point to learn something from this. As we tune the rx8 for more power, be it a NA or a turbo, what counts is average power levels. Not only is it more fun to drive cuz you have more access to it, your car is going to be faster as well.
So before you decide to slap the biggest turbo you can find on the car or decide to bore your ports out to the point you can reach through them with your hand, put some thoughts into our cars power band. I'm willing to be that a small quick spoiling turbo is going make for a much faster RX8 than the guy with a margine diesel size turbo.
end rant:
Everyone seems concerned these days with Peak HP. Now that the turbo’s are out, it’s the usual lets see how much HP I can make game, without much concern for the power curve of the car.
We’ve all heard that average HP and TQ win races, but few people seem to tune for a power band, just for the biggest dyno number. The most extreme examples being the 1200HP supra’s that grace the import tuning mags.
Well, BMW finally did something good other than not screwing up the 3series. I got my Car and Driver yesterday with the full test of the 2006 330I with a 6spd manual and they proved why average power, not peak, not only feels fast, but wins in a straight line as well.
The 2006 330I has BMW’s new 3.0L engine with all the variable valve goodies, which makes 255HP @6660RPM and 220TQ at 2750RPM. So whats the big deal with that? Hell the Toyota Avalon makes more power than that, and my grandmother drives one. So does the new Altima, Maxima, Acura TL, and prolly a few more I’m forgetting.
So whats my point? Well the new 330i which is 150lb heavier than the old model, with their new engine, does a 0-60 in 5.6sec and a street start (5-60) in 6.0 flat! It does this because the engines TQ curve is flat as a board from 2750rpm on up. All that new variable valve technology allows the engine to operate at a ridiculous level of efficiency. Rather than aim for some stupid high HP number, they created a sedan that is as fast or faster than every sport coupe on the market currently by making good use of average power. And it gets better mileage, and its again, 150lb heavier than the older model.
Lets all make a point to learn something from this. As we tune the rx8 for more power, be it a NA or a turbo, what counts is average power levels. Not only is it more fun to drive cuz you have more access to it, your car is going to be faster as well.
So before you decide to slap the biggest turbo you can find on the car or decide to bore your ports out to the point you can reach through them with your hand, put some thoughts into our cars power band. I'm willing to be that a small quick spoiling turbo is going make for a much faster RX8 than the guy with a margine diesel size turbo.
end rant:
However, you have to realize that our cars are peaky - there's no point in tuning for midrange punch while sacrificing the top end - the rotary is made to spinspinspinspin.
03-10-2005, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cretinx
However, you have to realize that our cars are peaky - there's no point in tuning for midrange punch while sacrificing the top end - the rotary is made to spinspinspinspin.
03-10-2005, 08:31 AM
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BMW's have always been like that, they've always been tuned for the low/mid range with a flat tq curve. This is because most people don't spend their time in the upper half of the tach.
It makes sense for every engine other than a rotary or the S2000 engine, which seem perfectly fine at those engine speeds.
For street purposes, yes, low/mid tuning definitely has its advantages
It makes sense for every engine other than a rotary or the S2000 engine, which seem perfectly fine at those engine speeds.
For street purposes, yes, low/mid tuning definitely has its advantages