v300

iTrader: (1)

Since many RX-8's will be upgrading to forceded induction I have a concern to address. Since we will be "boosting" should we get colder spark plugs? Are RX-7 spark plugs the same? Is there a colder spark plug for the 8?

Fanman

See The thread I had started under Greddy Kit get's mentioned in RX Tuner Magazine. Has some info on this situation.

v300

iTrader: (1)

No offense Fanman, but I'm trying to get somewhat of a discussion relating spark plugs in regards to forced induction to this parent "topic." As hard as it is, it gets pretty perplexing combing out relevant materials in the forums especially when the relevant material is different from topic heading. Please understand my frustration. Thanks for the feedback by the way.

So far as stated by dannobre there is NGK RE8A-L from Japan... however is that trailing or leading or does it matter?

brillo

Canzoomer supposedly sells a colder mazdaspeed spark plug, but I'm not aware of anyone installing or having them. He would be a good source to check first on that.

Fanman

No problem, I'm not offended. Actually I would like to learn more as well. According to Can Zoomer (product list/price guide) the MS RE8A-L (which they are selling for $94) is Leading. I got a set from IZoomZoomI so maybe he can chime in.

Silverarrow

I too would be interested in these sparkplugs. Any more info? Perhaps cut and paste the above mentioned relevant info?

Silverarrow

found some colder plugs on this site

http://www.sparkplugs.com/results_ap...1&AAIA=1416844

Any thoughts?

Silverarrow

Also they have a good price on the stock plugs too boot

IZoomZoomI

No trailing plugs are available from what I remember. Yea the re8l plugs are leading plugs from NGK and are the only plugs available at the time. It allows you to advance the timing a few more degrees compared to oem. I wouldn't recommend them if you live in an area where it gets real cold though, risk of flooding is a lil higher with these on.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Colder plugs are a last line of defense against knock.
This isn't an issue at the low boost levels and conservative timing of the current systems.

The detrimental effects of a colder plug will far out weigh the advantages.

Fanman

What would the detrimental effects be ? I'm curious, as I would like to know more. I do want more reliability if I decide to go to 7-8 psi on the turbo. Why would Greddy dial the decrease in boost on our engine at upper RPM ? Are they being ultra conservative ?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Colder plugs foul more easily.

What decrease in boost are you talking about?

Ajax

He's talking about the decrease in boost when the tertiary ports open that is not related to greddy's tuning but the lack of a boost controller in their setup.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Hmm. Interesting.

Has anyone actually graphed this?

I have a small dip in power when the 3rd port opens, but no dip in manifold pressure. This is due to a sudden change in the A/F (slightly lean then suddenly rich) that can be tuned out to a degree.

A boost controller wouldn't help that much if it were a dip - wastegates have a limited response.

philodox

Jeff, I noticed roughly a .75psi drop when the 3rd port opens. However, the boost catches back up and I hit 7psi a fraction of a second later.. I noticed that from reviewing my gauge logs since I can record what the display with the defi link.

brillo

I would think you could go to 8-9psi reliabily on our stock sparks, fuel injectors and internals provided you have a proper BOV, monitoring systems and boost controller.

From what I understand, the first problem people are likely to encounter would be the fuel injectors correct?

Fanman

MazdaManiac,

This was a quote from this month's RX Tuner :

"Horsepower instead of the previously promised 303 flywheel horsepower, the new numbers have been lowered a bit. Reason being is that now, instead of holding a consistent 7 psi of boost, the turbo will slowly drop above 6500 rpm to around 5 psi of boost at redline. Reportedly this is done because Greddy has not been able to source suitable colder spark plugs for the Renesis."

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Yes - 9 PSI would be the limit for the factory injectors at factory pressure and 80% - 90% duty cycle.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Interesting. Jon's system doesn't seem to exhibit this.
I wonder how they plan to accomplish this since there is no electronic boost control in the E-Manage.

Ajax

As I don't have one, I don't know, but it does make sense to see a slight drop in pressure and then a recovery in it if the turbo output enough CFM to keep up with the greater flow with the ports open.

As far as the limited response of a wastegate, i'm gonna say I have limited knowledge of how they're controlled anyway, but if you wouldn't mind explaining that, i'd appreciate it. I wonder if someone has built a truly electronic wastegate using a solenoid valve and electronic controls. That'd have nearly instantaneous switching speed and unlimited dwell controls.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Although colder plugs are a last line of defense against detonation they may still be crucial in certain FI/nitrous apps. because the spark plugs perform a number of other tasks as well. With boosted apps. over a certain level the combustion temps will be raised so we need colder plugs to more quickly carry away a larger portion of the heat to prevent heat related damage. With my modest 55 shot I have yet to swap plugs but with the addition of FI I most certainly will need to. So far I think the 55 shot and 5-7 psi are quite comparable in terms of effects on a stock engine, i.e. no adverse effects. One other thing; I facetiously ask if there is a possibility that the automotive aftermarket functions like the computer software industry with regard to beta testing and, if so, could that beta testing be marketed as "designed for user upgradeability". In other words, GReddy isn't quite sure what the max performance potential is of their new turbo kit but with our help, they'll soon find out. Anyone agree with this theory?

CRH

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

If Mazda can do it that way, why not Greddy?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

That is how a boost controller works - it has a solenoid and it has dwell and duty cycle control over the wastegate actuator.
The actuator itself is just a rubber diaphragm attached to a piston with a rod mounted in it at a 90° angle to the action of the diaphragm.
When it is pressurized, it extends by an amount controlled by a spring. It is the spring that decides the minimum opening pressure of the actuator - the boost controller can then increase that opening point by modulating the amount of pressure that the actuator actually sees.
Ideally, you want a spring that allows the actuator to open completely all at once and at a low pressure. However, this isn't possible. It will typically "crack" at a starting pressure and be completely open at another pressure that is usually 100% above the cracking pressure.
So, aim for a fully open pressure that is 75% of your target boost when selecting an actuator (in reality, finding an actuator that is set for your desired opening pressure is like looking for a needle in a haystack - they are seldom "rated" or marked in any way, so you need to test them with a pressure gauge and a pump. At $75 a pop, that can get to be difficult).

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

So, Jeff, are you validating the idea that there is much room for tuning improvement on the GReddy kit as it comes from the factory? Do you think that GReddy watches this forum to take a few hints from people like you and I with regard to the potential of the RX-8?

CRH

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, not exactly.

At the supplied boost, it is pretty good, though I might be inclined to go 1/2 point leaner in parts of the RPM and load range.

I think one can safely go up about 2 PSI from the way it comes from Greddy. I can run well into the 11:1 range at 9 PSI with the OEM injectors with my E-Manage setup.

I'd like to see their MAPs once they finally send them to Jon.