ignition!
 

I did a search for "Ignition upgrade", "Ignition",, "Spark", "HKS Twin power", "MSD" and "AEM Twin fire" with marginal results. The latter yielded a DIY by MM about how to install the system but requiring some circuitry experience. I also found numerous threads which all basically yielded the same conclusion, the RX8's ignition is weak and the coils burn out rather easily. Now to my problem...

I recently went to larger sub injectors(1000cc with a calculated map to compensate for them) and higher boost than before and obviously the car requires some tunning(it's rich) but the problem lies in the ignition not being able to light the mixture. when it gets to above 4000 it starts sputering and if I keep on the throttle it will eventually clean out after 6000-6500 rpms but I can still feel it isnt performing like it should. I started messing with the injector maps thinking it could just be a rich condition and I made two maps a way richer one and a way leaner one and when I put the leaner one on the EMU it got better in the non boost region but the problem under boost/fuel remained although slightly improved. When I loaded the rich one it got so rich the engine started sputerring like a rotor was off or something and it died(at idle). I then had to wait for a few hours and it turned on ok which led me to think that the problem was with the ignition. Rich or not the ignition should light the mixture(albeit with some black smoke out the back of the car). Bottom line is I need an upgrade. I do have the same spark plugs I have used since I got the car(which I will replace now) however my coils are good and arent arcing so that isnt the problem. I will start by getting new spark plugs but I have a few questions:

1.what are the benefits of using trailing on both L and T?
2.If I were to want to replace my coils, are there any stronger(spark wise) units that I could replace them with, not requiring an ignition amp to provide more spark?
3.Will the MSD Dis2 Ignition work on the 8.
4. Any suggestions, perhaps new coils, spark plugs and wires would do the trick?
5.Would this work?: http://www.msdignition.com/sci_6.htm


I woudl like to avoid having to create a circuit of any kind.

Thanks in advance for the input.

Chris....Esmeril

bump...
 

Anyone?

The MSD Installation instructions say the unit cannot be used with distributer-less ignitions systems.

You are not alone with this issue. A lot of folks are pursuing solutions. I have not heard of anything yet that sounds like a solid solution.

Also try this. I have this on my car and it runs well :

http://www.hksusa.com/categories/?id=1954&rsku=0

Installs very quickly.

MM and I spoke about this today with CRH. The problem is (A) the stock coils are physically weak and small, and (B) the actual circut for the coils is physically weak. In order to amp it up you need a new coil circurt (which MM is currently [no pun intended] working on).

No, the MSD ignition will not work, it needs a distrubitor.

Thanks for the input guys. I just ordered four trailing spark plugs from Mazsport to start with and I will go from there. I'll then progress to the wires, to the coils and finally to the circuit(ignition amp) as it becomes necesarry. I'll keep you updated.

Chris

You can also look at Okada Projects' Plasma Direct ignition coils!

http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/home.htm

WOW! That looks impressive, sounds like what I was looking for. I wish I new a price for them. They even have a version for the 8, nice. I'll check them out. Thanks a million.

Esmeril

Charles was taking a look at them. Vivid carries them, but I heard they are like $600-$700 !

Anyone have some dyno results on them?

/Lasse

I attempted to make a run on the dyno yesterday.....My car sucked, not because of Hp but because I couldnt even get it to do a good run....

Three possible problems(probably all of them):

Coils are bad
need new spark plugs(new ones havent arrived yet)

The abs,dsc and car with wet roads light came on halfway through the run and the car just lost power. It spputters and when it doesnt it doesnt have any power anyways.... horrible....I assume this is the famous limp mode. The last run the car barely wanted to make it past 8000 and it stopped by itself, it just didnt have any power. I'm relaly pist about this. The plugs arrive tomorrow and I will see if I can swap my buddies coils as I am almost sure mine are shot because I cant even get it to drive good in at part throttle with no boost. Hopefully this will remedy the problem and tell me if I need new coils. BTW, the engine is fine, its a fuel/ignition problem. I disconnected the battery all night to try and get it out of limp mode and the ABS and DSC lights went off when I turned it on this morning but the little car with the wet road is still on all the time...WTF? any suggestion on what this light means and how to get it off? Thanks in advance

Esmeril

Ummm?!?! From what I see in your comment it looks like you never turned the DSC off completely before you started your pull. The slippery or wet roads light should have been on before you started. You need to hold the DSC button down for 8 seconds to turn off the DSC completely (well mostly). At this time you will see both the DSC light and the Slippery Road light. You will need to turn off the ignition to reset the DSC.
Try searching on DSC. The complete instructions and details about the modes can be found.

--edited b/c of my lame ass grammar--

When you disconnect the battery, the traction system gets reset and looses its reference point. You will have to turn the wheel from lock to lock to give the system its reference points and then restart the car.

Traction control interfering with dynoing doesn't seem spark related. Maybe on the next run, just turn it off before hand.

I have a HKS twin power waiting to go in as it's cheaper than the coils. The HKS is probably a medium ignition upgrade whereas the the coils seem to be a big step up. With 1000CC secondaries, it sounds like you are looking to make some serious power. Good luck with that.

I did turn the wheel lock to lock and the DSC light stopped flashin and went off but the little car on the wavy road was still on. I might just replace my coils with factory ones for now and wait for an upgrade coil pack that isnt 700bucks. We'll see.

BTW, the spark problem is one I've been having on the street for a while now and isnt dyno related. The dyno problem was simply the fact that the car was powerless even when the spark wasnt giving any problems. It was the combination of both that frustrated me.

p.s.you're right about the serious power :)....

Chris

You're totally right, I only pressed on the button once...I will have to try it the right way later on...Thanks.

you said you are using 1000cc fuel injectors. Why did you decide on that size....what are you running for your primary injectors?

trailing spark plugs are a must for a turbo car. it will keep it cool. leading and trailing should only be used NA.

I have factory primary injectors. I chose 1000cc because I didnt want to remap the entire injector map and would have had to if I changed all the injectors. I also wanted enough fuel for 400whp and the only way to do that changing only two injectors is to go at least 900cc. I actually have a couple friends running 850ccprimaries and 1600ccsecondaries on street cars with no problems(FD's). I also know the injectors arent the problem because I was runing at 7-8psi with this setup and had everything working perfectly. Essentially I have it setup so that if I remove the turbo and zero out the entire (1000cc) injector map the car runs normal like it didnt have the EMU.

It was when I upped the boost that the spark started blowing out possibly because of old(32k) coils and spark plugs, it all went to hell and now I cant even get the car to drive good under vacuum because it keeps misfiring, even when the 1000cc injectors are fully closed(I can see that with the map trace function of the EMU). I spoke to Scott and he suggested some special coils he's working on so I am waiting for them to be released. I already bought new trailing sparkplugs from you guys and will replace my factory coils with OEM ones this weekend so I can drive until the new coils come out, it should at least fix the problem temporarily.

On my setup I have the P2 injectors in place of the P1's and replaced the P2's and Secondarys with 800cc high impedance injectors. Idles perfect and the transistion is smooth. The coils where replaced with the updated ones, an HKS ignition module was added and BUR9EQP's on all four and have no issues up to 9psi. Am I just on borrowed time? :fingersx:

Chris, How many miles on boost have you gotten without any problems? What is the mad scientist (Mazsport Scott) up to with coils?

ground your coils directly back to the battery.
olddragger

More importantly (since the main "ground" for the coils are actually the spark plugs - hard to get a better ground than that), power the coils directly from a high current location on the loom instead of where they are now, which draws current through a single 18ga wire that has to travel through the PCM first.

I understand , but wouldnt a better ground help in dissipating that left over electricity?
I was messing around with the old laser thermometer (not as the best way to measure temps) and the coils had a heat soak in the driveway of 160-180F degrees. Thats engine off--- and off x 5 minutes.
Be good for longitivity to move them?
olddragger

"Left over electricity"?

Power goes into the coils through a tiny shared wire.
It exits one of two ways:
A tiny portion that acts as the ground for the ignitor transistor and a huge quantity that leaves through the plug wire.

We aren't concerned with the power though the transistor.

Moving the coils to the edge of the airbox tray might not be a bad idea. Where they are now puts them in the convection path of rotor #1, not to mention the conduction pathway afforded by the bracket being attached to the block in general.

every coil has left over voltage after the spark has occurred.
after the spark, the left over energy(electricity) in the coil races back and forth between the spark plug and open primary circuit. This racing back and forth occurs until the energy is to weak to find a ground. the better the ground the better and faster this dissipation occurs.
Thats how I understand it -- but I am not an expert.
olddragger

Electricity only flows in one direction - from negative to positive.

In reality, the electrons flow from the negative side of the battery, through the engine block, across the gap, up the plug wire, through the coil windings (where the high voltage is exchanged for 12v at high current) and up a little 18ga wire through a tortured path to the battery positive.

Any oscillation that might occur in the secondary windings aren't going to hurt anything - at least not to the extent that not having a high current path available in the first place is going to do.

I have gotten about 9-10k miles with the turbo on.

Well I dont know if I should be talking about this and no one should take my word as fact but from what I understood when I spoke to Scott at Mazsport, he is working on a direct replacement coil pack that features stronger coils, both heat resistant and current wise. He mentioned they should be considerably cheaper than buying an HKS Twin Power and that he's just working on the plugs/wires to make them a plug-n-play affair. They are supposed to be available over the next month or so. Then again, I dont work for Mazsport and therefore this is just speculation....

Chris...Esmeril

Thanks Chris, sounds like it might be a good alternative.

Wow this thread brings back bad memories.....exactly what I went thru.......exactly.:shocking:

Reread the type 3 thread in Mazsport section, if I am not mistaken I had those same problems. I believe the root problem was that one of the coil packs was not grounded properly.

The mad scientist always has something up his sleeve and in the works for something better and more reliable.....:worship:

Doesn't Pettit Racing offer a coil relocation kit? I believe I saw a something on that at some point before.

For more than 350 whp i believe you are ok with just hks ignition amplifier..I have this and i also got the okada coils so i ll have the top notch of ignition to get past the 400whp mark easily(offcourse with the other mods i m planning)

If you want to spend some money get hks+okada...I believe you will be more than satisfied

Hello Chris

I've gon the same route. The ignition is just so much better. I sensed the difference from the emissions. The mixture seems to be burning much better. I am yet to check the levels though. The car is also more responsive.

I got the engine stripped btw. I think I will get away with reinforcing the front housing with extra dowels. Everything else looks fine.

Sas

^Fantastic CRH...Excellent..Lets see now when i ll get the turbo kit finally ;( big backorder...

Not a problem Charles...I trust u mate...I am still waiting for the fd rotors job to be done and then shipped to me so i have patience-and i might have lost my licence so no worries...

You should have them delivered here at my house so I have a reason to go to Thessaloniki and deliver them personally!

Daaaamn u r very very good and polite...Not the first impression though.. :spank: Offcourse u should come here to deliver them to know me better...Greeeeeeeeeat chance :Eyecrazy:

I haven't been to Thessaloniki in a couple of years, so it would be a great excuse.
As far as being polite? No, not particularly. I don't suffer fools gladly.

accuvolt any good for us?
OD

I know I'm interested in the Okada coils to see if they actually make a difference- if so, Ray, I may order a set from you in September when I get my turbo going.

U r welcome MM... ;)
Charles cant wait...I hope i ll have them beofore 15july...As long as the rest of the kit tough

Anybody know any info. about Mazsport and his work on coils?

heat soak temp measured with laser after 20 min drive in 90-95 ambient is 175-180 F.
olddragger

That's pretty cool.
In 100° - 105°F ambient, my coils are at least 200°F.
Typically, everything that touches the keg is coolant temp (i.e. 220°F) except the alternator, which is usually at least 240°F.

i can believe it without problem.
coils, wires, plugs and fuel pumps(since I track a good bit) are now classified as maintenance items for me.
damn air flow.
coming off a 20-25 min track session the engine bay is actually only slightly warm and most peripherals are only a little on the warmer than warm side. Not "hot". You can keep your hand on the coils. I will laser them in august at road atlanta.
Short of a vented hood --IMHO there is not much more to be done.
olddragger

Hey, does anybody know about X-Power ignition booster versus HKS DLI II ignition amplifier?

I'm hearing the X-Power may be just as good, but who knows more on this?

http://www.gruppe-s.com/Evo/evoeng.htm

Note- Nah, don't own an evo, but listed here, as you can see the x-power ignition booster in comparison to HKS ignition amplifier.

whooo ha ha ha ....pay no attention to the man behind the green curtain.....

in OZ, anything is possible.....:lol2:

You could relocate the coil pack assembly by purchasing the HKS harness and reworking it to simply extend the coil wiring, available separately and costs $195 or so plus some misc electrical supplies .... you could get around a 4 ft extension range

http://www.sp-power.com/catalog/prod...ducts_id=10469

I was intending to relocate mine down near the plugs with short plug wires, but after reading over the rules decided it wasn't legal for my class. There's a lot of open room on that side of the engine for airflow/cooling ...

Or it may just be this way:

-The main ground for the coils is not the spark plug. Spark plug ground has nothing to do with the path of current powering the coils.

-Coil current does not flow through the PCM.

-For a short period after the gap first breaks down, current flows in the opposite direction in the primary circuit. There are also oscillations (i.e. current flowing in one direction, then the other) after the spark is extinguished.

-In the described series circuit, the secondary of the coil has a resistance of about 10,000 ohms. Then there is the resistance of the gap itself, and in some cases a few k of resistance is purposely included in the plug wire for such things as radio interference suppression. And finally there is this 'little 18ga wire through a tortured path'. Its resistance happens to be less than 0.05 ohm.

Uh, how do you intend to explain that? Have you even looked at the wiring diagram?

There are 4 paths for electricity through the coil:
1) The trigger input
2) The power supply
3) The ignitor ground
4) The plug wire tower

#1 comes through an 18ga wire directly from the PCM. #2 comes through an 18ga wire that is bundles to the other coil inputs down to an 18ga wire that is paired off to the PCM though the 15A engine fuse and balanced across ground by a "condenser" (a capacitor).
#3 is another 18ga wire bundled to the other coils similarly and #4 is obvious.
When the coil secondary current flows, which path do you think it takes?
Do you really think that the current across the ignitor is greater than the current across the plug?

Resistance is only a tiny part of the story, since the voltage is exchanged for current.

I need olddragger to help me with this. He appears to understand you.
Uh, yes. Have you? But I have to admit I don’t know all the details. I would like to know what you know. In the meantime I will respond based on how I believe the system works.

This is the signal wire from the PCM, and is the only connection to it. I believe it is a 5 volt, 3 ms pulse. It carries a very small current, a few ma at the most. End of story. It plays no part other than to turn the power transistor on and off.

Holy smokes! Why do you ask me if I looked at the wiring diagram when you obviously have not? There is NO power connection to the PCM that pertains to the operation of the coil!


What you are basically saying here is that power for the coil primaries comes from the battery through a fuse (you forgot the ignition switch). So what? And what is this about the condenser (thanks for the clarification by the way) balancing things. It’s there as a high frequency noise suppressor. If there is any concern over excessive resistance in the primary circuit, as olddragger seemed to have, then he could run four separate wires directly from the battery to the coil positve voltage inputs. The same goes for the primary coil grounds.

It probably takes the path you said (we should be a bit careful here), and let’s assume you are correct. The important thing here is that although both the primary and secondary return their respective currents to the battery negative, they do it through two different ground paths. The resistance of the primary circuit is only a couple of ohms, so if you introduce a couple of ohms through a bad connection, you could be dead in the water. The resistance on the secondary side is many thousands of ohms. It couldn’t give a tinker’s damn about even hundreds of ohms.

Yes. I believe you yourself said that low voltage high primary current is exchanged for low current, high secondary voltage. Look, the peak primary current is, say, 5 amps. The secondary coil resistance is, say, 10,000 ohms. If the secondary current were just equal to the primary current (let alone much greater), the voltage drop in the secondary coil resistance would be 50,000 volts, so there would never be anything available for the spark (by the way, I don't mean to be critical but current flows through things, voltage is developed across things)

Resistance is a big deal in the primary. It is a relatively insignificant issue in the secondary. But it was you who made such a fuss over that 18-gauge wire as it pertained to secondary current. I think you are going to drive me crazy:banghead: .

Just as a matter of curiousity,has anyone dismantled the plug wire tower on a failed coil?

Yes. I've cut a few of them up. Not much to see. The ignitor is what fails and its damage is usually internal unless it outright fries (I've done that a few times.