john_martin

Hey guys,
I've noticed that there is alot of hype about the turbo kits coming out. I would love to get my hands on something like this but am reluctant for two reasons.
1. Sacraficing Reliability
2. I live in the middle of nowhere so even if i did get it, i would hafta go somewhere to have it put on.
just let me know what yall think

philodox

Does someone else want to touch this one?

Icemastr

Just install it yourself, it will be fun.

bureau13

I've found you never really know what's going on until you start working on it. Its a pain in the ***, but rewarding in the long run.

jds

Broke_Apex_Seal

A nice quality kit. The I/C is kinda small and so is the turbo but nothing you could not upgrade later on. I Like My Kit!

philodox

Yeah, after driving hard in mine, I stopped and went to the front of the car to feel the temp of the intercooler.. lets just say that the inlet of the intercooler I could not touch with my hand at all and the outlet was as cold as ice... it's designed well for the amount of airflow through it. Once I borrow my friends lasor thermometer, I'll take actual temp readings off the intercooler.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

I am immensely impressed by the quality/value of the parts - just from Jon's pictures, it looks like that exhaust manifold is a work of art! Even has the airpump connection, and the O2 sensor hole!

S

rx8wannahave

But, historically how long would a Turbo'ed or SC engine last? Since the Renesis was made without a Trubo or SC and some VERY gutsy people are the ones adding it I just wonder how it will work out in the long run.

If you give me the old, if you take care of it it will run almost forever...then I"m OK with it. But if it's more like...hey at least you will have fun for 30,000 miles...then I would not go with a Turbo or SC.

Teach me folks...what is about Turbo's or SC that make them unreliable or bad for our engines?

1975yellowBSPz

what makes FI unreliable? Getting greedy and running excessive boost is the main one, (likely over 7-8 psi on most of these units,. That and even a MINOR lapse in scheduled maintanence or best practice (let it get too low on oil, reving to 8k a minute after starting the motor, let it get way too low on oil, using poor gas, not changing the oil, etc...) You have to be a little more diligant, check the engine visually one a week or when you are planing on pushing it is a good idea. Look for smoke, loose hoses etc.

But for the most part, if you take care of it - it takes care of you. Many production cars use similar or the same parts, so it's not like you are strapping a 300 shot of Nos to a Toyota Prius... Just maintain it and don't go nuts with the boost. IMO

Bw

dmp

Here's my biggest issue with after-market FI:


"The more systems you add to a car, the higher the possibility of their failure.."

Adding boost to a car can remove some of the joy of driving. If I do NOT turbo my car,
I don't have to worry about the exhaust gaskets failing. I don't have to worry about the software. I don't have to worry about the studs holding the turbo on, snapping. I don't have to worry about running lean. I don't have to worry about having $1000 on hand for WHEN my clutch goes out, either. I won't have to WORRY about anything but 'driving'.

A NA car is going to be, all things being equal, far less stressful than a heavily modified FI car...the components ARE being stressed less, there ARE less things to break/leak/blow. Antedotal evidence to the contrary does not mitigate this overriding principle. Not to say a properly FI'd rx8 isn't reliable, but fact is they will become, like any modded car, more tempermental.

brillo

i think there are more than a few examples of stock FI engines that are plenty reliable since they are relativily low boost. the VW 1.8T and Subi 2.0T come to mind. Both engines if properly maintained will go for 150K plus.

As I stated in a joke thread/poll, low to mid boost if setup properly, will not noticably degrade engine life if cared for....(ie regular oil, coolant. tranny fluid changes).

The problem is, a stock turbo is kinda a license to ill. it doesn't take much to dial up the boost, and our couse at the begining, you don't notice any problems so people just leave it that way until a problem happens. (see a subi service advisor for details ) The greddy kit is a good low boost application, and I will be in total shock if 6-7psi hurts our engine over the long term.

army_rx8

cooooool can't wait to hear the difference:D

dmp

Oh- for the record? It's pronounced "GRRRRRRRRRRRRREddy....like GREAT" - not "Gee-Ready"



:D

philodox

I think that's why GReddy spells the name with the "R" capitalized on all their products.. that way people know it's not a soft "r"

rotarygod

An n/a car will also be much slower.

To put into perspective how much stress forced induction adds, when you double the airflow you do not double the engine stress. Far from it. If you were to double the airflow with say 14.7 psi of boost, you'd only have about 20% greater stress on the engine. Half of this boost is even less added stress. I'd personally like to think that the engine was designed with more than 20% stress tolerance built in.

As I am so fond of saying though, what affects reliability more than anything is how it is tuned and how hard it is driven. Forced induction doesn't hurt your engine. Abusing it does.

dmp

People need to ask themselves if 250whp for 2 years, is worth more than 180whp for 5 years...if not those numbers specifically, then the concept behind that statement.

rotarygod

If you really think there's a problem with longevity at this power level, you have a TON on homework to do. The way something is tuned has FAR more effect on longevity than the amount of power the engine is putting out. Go back and read more than the first sentence of my previous post this time. Even a 400 hp rotary can be reliable in the long term.

I think you should ask yourself what is worth more, a more fun 250 rwhp for 5 years, or a much more dull 180 rwhp for those same 5 years??? Personally I liked the 425 rwhp RX-7 that I drove for 4 years and never blew the engine in but that's just me.

Here's another smiley but with teeth. :D

philodox

Well put RG..


I treat my car better than I do myself most times.. well, I bathe more than my car does, but thats about it. hehe.. costs more to feed, clean, and put shoes on it's feet.. of course I am going to take very good care of it.. because it's medical bills would be through the ceiling if I didn't

dmp

In your quest to provide technical guidance, you've missed my point entirely. Adding boost WILL increase wear and tear on parts - that is not debatable. But the BIGGER issue is, it can also reduce the 'fun factor'; the car may turn into a 'project' car - something some may not want. I know I'd have NO hard feelings about flogging my car, WOT in all gears, for a track day, as-is. Add boost? I'd be more hesitant for sure.

There is at least ONE well-established, well-known Rotary "Guru" in my area who seems to think the car, stock, just simply won't last with FI of any signifigance. Your opinion on the matter seems educated; just recognize that until an FI Rx8 DOES make it 5 years, your predictions are speculation.

You can save your suggestions on homework; I appreciate the advice, but I'm fairly well-schooled in what it's like to live with cars which have after-market FI systems.

army_rx8

^^^^^^wow i learn somethign new everyday from you rotarygod...keep the neat tid-bits of rotary info coming:D

brillo

No one is questioning that FI increases wear on the engine, the but the real question is, if tuned properly, is that extra wear significant enough on a modestly boosted Renesis to really matter. Say the average NA Renesis goes 150K miles and then needs a rebuild. If a well tuned FI renesis goes 140-145K miles, is that wear really an issue? I don't think so. RG is basing his ideas off of history with previous rotors, which is all we can really do, but should provide a pretty accurate indication of what to expect in terms of reliability over the long term.

People are way to hung up on what happend with the FD and assume any FI rotor is going to have a 70-100K life span. The turbo FC's were plenty reliable past 100K if maintained. Mazda simply dropped the ball on the FD in terms of design, it was a overly complicated and ran very hot. In addition, simple bolt on mods were enough to create a lean condition that could lead to detonation and the need for a new engine due to a crappy knock sensor.

Could your engine hand grenade with a low boost FI kit? Sure, **** happens, and statistically speaking, modifing you engine increases the chance of something bad happening. But I think the odds are pretty damn low...low enough I'd bet money on it. Now if your pushing more than 300WHP FI and aren't being very careful in terms of tuning, I think you could run into serious problems.

This is why I'm looking at making no more than 280WHP when and if I go FI. Sure others will go higher, and be marginally faster, but I'm just going to enjoy being faster than 99.99% of the people on the road rather than 9.999995%

2ks2k

Wow, this sounds like the S2K debate when the S/C came out a few years ago...how long will the engine last, when will the clutch go, etc...and of course there are now plenty of S2K's that have been FI for 3+ years with no problems. Of course those that have tried to signifcantly increase the "boost" have had the added expenses of a new diff., new engine, etc. Just food for thought...

I agree with most on here...7psi is a safe enough level that if left untampered will provide enjoyment for many years.

2ks2k

True, but to what extent is also debatable. How do you know that it is so insignificant that for the "average" user that doesn't track their car or abuse it that the wear and tear is negligable? You don't, it's pure speculation. It might be that you can get 200k miles with FI and 210K miles without...is it worth it then? We can play optimist and pessimist all day...

I find it amusing that you'll track your car with no worries, but won't put a turbo on. I hope you don't think that pushing your car at the track doesn't increase the wear and tear. Just because it's NA doesn't mean things won't break and reduce the "fun factor"...

All this debating aside, I just hope that people realize that there "may" be consequences whether you track your car, add FI, etc. and be ready to deal with it if and when it happens.

dmp

...and we don't know if the engine will die at 50,000 miles or 500,000 either.
You 'don't' know. We don't know. Turbo RX8s have been around for how long? Months? We simply are unaware of the kinds of wear the system will put on the car's drivetrain. It sure sounds good to say "I've been boosting an RX8 for 3 weeks, and it runs fine!" - or "I've boosted a different care for 3 YEARS and it worked". The point I'm not sure everyone is grasping is: We have to be prepared to accept the bad with the good.

Again - the more systems you put on a car, the more chance for failure. If boosted I could have an oil line fail. An IC line fail. The emanage could fail. The injectors could go static. I could over-heat. I could have a boost-spike. TONS of things - sure some of those could happen with a STOCK car, but as I replied earlier in this paragraph, the MORE you futz with something - the more 'systems' you add, the greater chance for failure. If you can't see how running a stock RX8 near WOT for 15 minute track sessions would be LESS stressful on the drive train than doing that with an 'aftermarket' turbo system - you're beyond the ability to reason. I don't mean that as an insult...

Why are you assuming I won't put a turbo on my car? My experience is the DIRECT result of having two cars with aftermarket turbo systems. In both cases, I found myself spending too much thought and worry and time monitoring and checking and double-checking things. All that work can remove a lot of the fun-factor a car had previously. After thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours I looked up one day and realized driving the cars had become more chore than fun - despite two and three second drops in 1/4 e/t's on one of the cars, and a full second + on the 2nd. I like turbos. I'm a proponent of turbo systems. It's as if, however, especially on THIS forum, one cautions some of the 'negative' aspects of applying aftermarket boost, that person becomes a 'villian', or a 'boost hata'


Indeed.

shaolin

^^^dmp I completely agree with you...

The fact of the matter is, we can speculate and make educated guesses all day long, but we don't know what's REALLY going to happen until philodox and others run their cars for a year or more.

I'd be willing to bet that it has a good chance of being reliable, but not a 100% chance.

I drove an Mazdaspeed Protege before, and I was constantly worried when I would tweak the stock turbo system...