Fuel for 350whp
I'm new to the Rx8 as a whole, but not Rx7's. After reading endless pages on the Rx8 fuel system, I am unsure if it's a safe bet to go for 350whp without doing a return style fuel system. But, I do not want to do so in this car.
So, who here is making 350whp on the returnless fuel system? What pump are you using? Did you melt the pop off valve on the stock assembly? I am going to use blue 480cc ("claimed") injectors in all 6 locations. At the correct fuel pressure of 58psi, what are the actual flow numbers of the blue injectors? I only seem to find flow rates for the yellows. If you are making this kind of power on a similar set up, besides a pump and injectors, what other fuel upgrades did you do, if any? |
you are gonna have a hard time getting 350hp from a renny unless you want it live a very short life
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Originally Posted by 200.mph
(Post 4594800)
you are gonna have a hard time getting 350hp from a renny unless you want it live a very short life
Please keep this on topic. My question is referring to the fuel system. Mainly, if the returnless system can handle the abuse of this power with injectors, a proper fuel pump, and melting the pop off valve in the pump assembly. |
Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
(Post 4594839)
May I make it simpler for you, while keeping it "on topic", then?
If you need to ask an internet forum this kind of question while also thinking you are going to reach 350 h.p. with a Renesis, reliably (keep in mind many of us have been around here for 10+ years as well as being professionals who specialize in the RX-8), you are already in over your head. In other words, we can help you devise a fuel system that will flow enough fuel for 350 h.p. but, if you are going to use it while also running a Renesis engine, we will really just be helping you to devise an "engine wrecker". Is that what you want? I understand the risks of my chosen goal. I also understand what the renesis is and is not capable of. While I do not claim to be an Rx8 specialist, I do feel like somewhat of a rotary specialist. I do not claim to know it all nor am I an expert. This is why I am asking a question. Thank you for your concerns. Now, I am sure 6 of the "480cc" Blue injectors will handle the goal HP, but I am unsure if the direct swap dw200, dw300, or similar pumps will do the job in a factory style returnless system. I want to stay away from converting to a return style unless there is no other way to supply this amount of fuel safely. |
The math to determine flow rates for rotary HP is all out there.
For example, a quick search on google: site:rx8club.com brake specific fuel consumption Turns up this thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...y-math-106294/ I agree with the others though. Your RX-7 experience that you are leaning on is going to lead you to make decisions that will result in a lot of wasted money and damaged hardware. I recommend that you set aside your peripheral port 13b knowledge and start researching fresh. A lot of very very critical differences that "rx-7 rotary experts" trip on time and time again. |
I understand that you are making the mistakes a "legacy" rotary owner usually do when they buy an 8. Read around and discover how many rotary experts have failed with this car because they tried to use the established tricks of the trade.
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Sure your good man,
The stock system is good to 350 whp. So no upgrades are needed. If you really want to throw the dw200 in and melt the cap and your good. Then drive around easy for a while and the ecu will even trim out the injectors on its own. You don't even need to tune it. Just don't run below 1/4 tank because the extra flow if the dw200 will wash out the venturi. |
I think we can count the number of people who have pulled over 330 on our hands. (with proof)
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OK . This is really a rather good question that I would like an answer to as well . Being someone who has pulled 350whp on a renesis (just yesterday) . I'm not happy with my current fuel pump strategy.
The Walbro255 (with melted popoff) that I have just doesn't cut it . I even ran out of fuel in a straight line yesterday with about 1/8 tank - something that has never happened before yesterday so i suspect the walbro is on its way out - but the Walbro never really solved any of the original issues I was expecting it to either. So was thinking : DW300 in a S2 cradle assembly ........ anyone tried that ? |
Originally Posted by sen2two
(Post 4594799)
I am going to use blue 480cc ("claimed") injectors in all 6 locations. At the correct fuel pressure of 58psi, what are the actual flow numbers of the blue injectors? I only seem to find flow rates for the yellows. Better to go : yellow/blue/blue That will give you enough for 350whp |
Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4595044)
Look at the flow charts brett. I wasn't joking that the dw200 should flow enough to make 600hp on ethanol. Ive got one sitting in my garage. I just haven't installed it because i found a few things saying it will destroy the Venturi and not drain the passenger side.
600hp on ethanol in a piston engine maybe .... Was advised by my engine builder who does lots of high hp FDs to go with the DW300 vs the 200. Can you link the conversation re the venturi ? |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4595042)
So was thinking :
DW300 in a S2 cradle assembly ........ anyone tried that ? |
Originally Posted by yomomspimp06
(Post 4595048)
I'm at work so I can't spend a lot of time searching, but the problem with using the larger lph fuel pump was it was too much for fuel for the cruising causing overheating and premature pump failure. That's the gist of what I got from the thread about fuel pump fixes. Run a search. It's one of the larger threads. Maybe that's not exactly what was being said but that's what I got from it
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4595047)
600hp on ethanol in a piston engine maybe ....
Was advised by my engine builder who does lots of high hp FDs to go with the DW300 vs the 200. Can you link the conversation re the venturi ? I am mistaken, it is the DW300. I was remembering wrong. I'll go correct that first post. I am pretty sure the DW200 was close. I was on the edge of buying the 200, but got a steal on the DW300 so I went with it. The DW200 is rated at 225LPH at 60PSI the DW300 is 305LPH at 60PSI. Here's the link on the upgraded 300 pump. http://www.deatschwerks.com/news/press-releases/ I can't find the conversation about the venturi, but I think it was in the fuel pump failure modes thread. |
I would strongly recommend the Aeromotive pump over Douchewerkz
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4595067)
I would strongly recommend the Aeromotive pump over Douchewerkz
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4595067)
I would strongly recommend the Aeromotive pump over Douchewerkz
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4595070)
Can you elaborate please?
3 years and over 25k miles on my Aeromotive 340. I'm at 320-360rwhp depending on what boost setting I'm on. . |
Firecan is that the stock flow and pump assyembly with just an upgraded pump
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Originally Posted by logalinipoo
Firecan is that the stock flow and pump assyembly with just an upgraded pump
Posted From RX8Club.com Android App |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4595070)
Can you elaborate please?
I was just doing name play though, but am unsure if it's a good option or not for the RX8 |
Originally Posted by logalinipoo
(Post 4595088)
Firecan is that the stock flow and pump assyembly with just an upgraded pump
Originally Posted by yomomspimp06
(Post 4595096)
you're running return setup right firecran
Posted From RX8Club.com Android App |
Originally Posted by firecran
(Post 4595078)
3 years and over 25k miles on my Aeromotive 340.
I'm at 320-360rwhp depending on what boost setting I'm on. . You are using the stock s1 fuel pump assembly with the aeromotive 340 pump and no other modifications besides injectors? I assume you melted down the pop off valve? |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4595046)
Don't put blues into P1
Better to go : yellow/blue/blue That will give you enough for 350whp |
Originally Posted by sen2two
(Post 4595185)
What is the corrected flow for the blues at 58psi, if you do know it? I am only able to find corrected flow rates for the yellows.
yellows scaled at - 476 Blues are at - 600 The reason blues in P1 is a bad idea is that they are quite a coarse spray pattern ............ not what you want for idle and cruise. |
Why not buy a pair of ID725 injectors and run them in P1 with 4 yellow :dunno:
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4595444)
Why not buy a pair of ID725 injectors and run them in P1 with 4 yellow :dunno:
Might work though ......worth a try ;) |
sub'd to this thread
I'm looking for the same information [fuel pump] & [fuel injectors] |
From my research (not personal experience), many Rx8's are putting down 300+ to the wheels with the stock pump and injectors. To me, this is working the stock injectors to hard (85% or more duty cycle).
With either a dw200, dw300, or Aeromotive 340 pump, and use yellow injectors in the primary location and all four blue injectors in the secondary position, 350whp is achievable with some room to grow. |
Personal experience is a road built on a foundation of failures. You will get some soon enough ...
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Originally Posted by sen2two
(Post 4597276)
From my research many Rx8's are putting down 300+ to the wheels
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The injector side of things is easy . I'm interested to know if anyone has tried a larger pump in a S2 housing ? Seriously considering this idea myself after multiple bad experiences with my current setup. (Walbro in an S1 housing)
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4595051)
Was talking to my guy about that very issue -- he has some fuel coolers he wants me to try ................
Did you say fuel cooling? muahahahaha! Now we are talking :suspect: |
Originally Posted by blackenedwings
(Post 4597678)
Really... where exactly are all of these 300+ whp RX-8s?
I also live in an area where rotary cars are not rare. There are quite a few turbo Rx8's in the area that are not on the forum. |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4597680)
The injector side of things is easy . I'm interested to know if anyone has tried a larger pump in a S2 housing ? Seriously considering this idea myself after multiple bad experiences with my current setup. (Walbro in an S1 housing)
What problems have you had with this set up? Why do you think that the s2 housing might fix this problem? |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4595042)
I even ran out of fuel in a straight line yesterday with about 1/8 tank - something that has never happened before yesterday so i suspect the walbro is on its way out - but the Walbro never really solved any of the original issues I was expecting it to either.
I see about 70psi of fuel pressure from my setup, and its the walbro255 in melted s1 housing |
Originally Posted by FazdaRX_8
(Post 4598010)
Original issues?
The S2 pump supposedly resolved this to a large degree . So I figured the S2 housing with a Bigger pump would be a better solution for us turboed S1 guys. |
you need to be talking to dannobre, he is the most experienced member here in dealing with this issue IMO ...
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4598058)
you need to be talking to dannobre, he is the most experienced member here in dealing with this issue IMO ...
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Originally Posted by FazdaRX_8
(Post 4598010)
Original issues? I see about 70psi of fuel pressure from my setup, and its the walbro255 in melted s1 housing
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4598043)
Can't go below 1/4 tank around high G corners (under boost) without starving.
The S2 pump supposedly resolved this to a large degree . So I figured the S2 housing with a Bigger pump would be a better solution for us turboed S1 guys.
Originally Posted by FazdaRX_8
(Post 4598010)
Original issues?
I see about 70psi of fuel pressure from my setup, and its the walbro255 in melted s1 housing |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4598065)
True . I'm really just wanting the best in tank solution possible though , not wanting to use the car in competition like he does.
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-parts-s...8/#post4599058 competition has nothing to do with understanding the elements involved in order to make proper decisions :dunno: |
Yeah I have a turbo with larger injectors, I haven't seen any side effects. but I don't let it get below quater tank.
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4599094)
He would probably tell you the same thing ...
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-parts-s...8/#post4599058 competition has nothing to do with understanding the elements involved in order to make proper decisions :dunno: |
IMO you only say that because you don't understand the elements I was referring too earlier. That's what he's doing now, but he went through exactly what you describe a long time go and learned a lot about how the system responds doing exactly what you are inquiring about.
like he said in the link I posted previously ... I won't mention it again, was just a friendly suggestion is all |
3 Attachment(s)
I just put a DW300 in a s1 housing. The sock filter fit perfect. It is quieter then the stock pump. I got my nebighor's kid to help and we both hammered on the ring at the same time. It came right off. Everything went together perfect.
It now pulls 60 PSI at IDLE instead of 58, and 68 Is my max pressure after a couple of pulls. It was 65 with the stock pump. Now to see how much my fuel trims change. Brett, I just found the info about the venturi and it was MM saying to drill it out. I just installed it and melted the venturi cap. https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-maj...1/#post3075922 141,469 miles and barely dirty filter. https://www.rx8club.com/attachments/...p-dirty-2-.jpg after cleaning https://www.rx8club.com/attachments/...whp-clean1.jpg |
Hopefully you didn't drill it out
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That thread could use some cleanup ;-)
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No i didn't drill it. Ive realized half the crap he said was bs. And the other half be cautious with. But a few people were reporting good results so i just went for it. Ill see how it works for myself.
Of course i was not having any problems before with my stock pump. I just figured i would install it to have the extra flow and safety. Also i can tune out the difference in fuel pressures before going fi. |
If you aren't willing to use an external sump setup it makes a lot more sense to use a smaller pump and a booster. The booster is used successfully everywhere else but not here for some reason. You don't want it any bigger than necessary. Not only is it going to be recirculating like a mofo in low load conditions, it's also going to suck out the internal reservoir faster at low tank level as reported by dannobre numerous times. It won't fix anything at a low tank level i.e. 1/8 tank even during straight line acceleration as Brettus reported, just the opposite ....
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4595444)
Why not buy a pair of ID725 injectors and run them in P1 with 4 yellow :dunno:
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