Turblown

Calling that a T70 is misleading. I don't know about everyone here, but most people refer to Garrett's designation for turbo sizes. That would be like a To4S( 60-1) or T60. T series usually designates a big shaft turbine wheel too, and I bet that " Super T70 " doesn't have one. Not that that really matters, but does the topic's turbo kit use what you're using or an actual T70. There is a big difference between the two, and probably more than just physical size if this is an ebay turbo( blade pitch etc)

I also assumed you were using a remount turbo system based on that photo, I'm assuming now this is more or less right behind the factory header( not really a remount turbo system)? And yes that highflo cat is probably the reason why your car was so laggy.

To give you an idea, we built a To4E 57 trim powered car, a little bit smaller turbo than yours( 56mm inducer), with a 1.15 P trim turbine and the boost threshold was 1400rpms in 4th gear. This was a 13B however, and a 3.5" exhaust system.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

I am done with this discussion in this thread. There is no point and it is clearly deviating from the opening subject.

The video doesn't show rpm but in the text the poster explicitly says how he has full boost before 4000rpm.

On the other video where rpm is visible he doesn't even start getting on the throttle until about 5k so its obvious that it won't have boost before 4k.

I have no reason to contest someones opinion. I have personally seen my car do at least 10psi by 3500rpm, like it or not that is how it is(obviously in first gear its different, its no supercharger, but after that its pretty close to this). Whether it worked the same or not on someone else's setup is for them to figure out and it does not reflect on our kit because they don't have one. All it does is prove furthermore that the setups are different. Period.

Turblown has plenty of experience with other rotaries as well and he seems to be on the same page as me.

As for wether I made this kit for an rx-8 and not an rx-7......I made this kit for a rotary...one that behaves like a rotary.

Back on subject.

Chris

Mafia

Chris, should I wait until break in period is finished before I start to lean out my car?
What would I need to set myself up for starting to tinker with my maps besides a laptop

rotorocks

They use the same unit. If if the OP's turbo was different, there would be no point of this.
Edit: I didn't call it T70, or Super T70... That's just what it happened to be called all along.
Don't blame me

Well no it is not a remote turbo anymore than their kit is. Turbine flange is just about a foot the header. And it is heat wrapped, and the curves are very smooth, and the pipes joined neatly.

Looking at the video, It wasn't any more luggy than that on the Staticlag's car.

importshowoff84

So, you're saying that having a high flow cat or maybe a catless midpipe makes it more laggy?

rotorocks

Quite a presidential speech, I must say Lotsa words.
So then make a log? Show us.
Will take you 10 minutes at the most.

Someone said on my thread, if there is no vid, it didn't happen. Breaking into boost by 2K and actually making 10 let alone 12 psi @ 3.5K rpm is a huge difference. But again, from the beginning I said nothing more but that the car feels slow on the street, because of the laggy turbo. Even looking at the video (with the rpm) you can see how boost doesn't just happen to be "instant", as it is claimed, but is built over the range of at least 500 - 1000 RPM. From 4500 to 5000, 5000 to 6000 ... look at it again...

Just for kicks, I was playing with the car on the way home tonight. I'd bring the car to cruise (just around 20-15 HG) at exactly 4K in 5th gear, and then floor it. Before the tach needle even moved a 100 the boost was flat and bouncing off the 12 PSI. That makes the car fun to drive. No need to downshift.

When one floors at 4000, and hit full boost a 1000 rpms later (as per the video), makes it a luggy and unresponsive turbo.

OK, I now know what I needed to know. I guess there is no more to gain from this discussion.

D_8

chris not to bash or anything but you mentioned that you've had it for almost two years on your car..? any chance you could post your most resent dyno? your website still has the one where the machine had problems or somethign. I was planning on buy your turbo this summer but i Just found out ima be a daddi so ima hold up on it for maybe next summer and save more money for my future baby. but i still would love to see YOUR dyno. thankz oh and maybe a list of what else besides the turbo and int-x you have, what exhuast and stuff. thankz I'm new to the turbo world and just wana learn all i can.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

Good for you!

Now back on topic!

Chris

rotorocks

OK, Chris, if that's what you want, Back on topic

I'll put my "money" where my mouth is, and post my own log, of what may possibly pass as a responsive (to a degree) turbo.
Please note this is not fast, when comes to spooling turbos. My turbo, is still a cheap eBay journal bearings unit. It is not a high end turbocharger with ceramic bearings, water cooling, anti surge ports and etc.

I floored it at 3600 rpm.
The blue line across indicates load (boost)
Red line across, is the engine RPM
Black line is the Injector duty. It is irrelevant, I just forgot to turn it off.

The green vertical line is the cursor positioned on the so you could see the exact values, which are on the bottom of the chart.

Chris, If you are seeing 10psi @ 3500RPM, you should easily be able to match and beat this because the highest I saw at 3500 was somewhere in the area of 8-9 when it was l floored from 2K.

Turblown

I will admit I am not very versed in tuning the Rx-8 engines, nor engines of that compression ration, but I would bet that tune could use a few more degrees advance and and close to half a point leaner, especially for that psi and ait. Coolant temps are pretty high though, considering all other factors. Could be a reason why the " T70" felt so laggy.

Whiting out all your **** huh? lol

rotorocks

LOL **** is not allowed on the forums, so gotta white it out. Although I gotta tell ya the risk factor of watching **** on your work laptop, while driving at 80 mph on a freeway... Pure excitement!!!
Just kidding. Those tabs are of the applications that I use for work. They had the company name, and the other info that I prefer to keep private

For the tune though, it is getting hot here in FL, 100F yesterday at the time the log was made. The gas has gotten much crappier lately with the 10% ethanol, they add to it, so I keep the tune conservative. she's still is fast as hell. I already blew one motor, and blowing it the second time, right now is not in my budget.

It runs with about 5 degrees of timing at 10 PSI and and it is set to 0 at 14. Everything above that goes up in about 2-4 degrees increment per pound of boost. And I run 30 degrees timing when cruising.

I am still working on the tune for the 6000 - 6500 APV transition, as it is kinda painful to get it right in that area. For some reason, when I do a pull and AFs are set to 11:1 or close to it in the 3rd or 4rth gear, the 1st and 2nd gear will be too reach, and in the area of 6000 rpm will drop close to 9:1AF and the car bogs down. Then if I lean it out to go 11s through 1rst and second gear, in 4th and up the transition gets too lean. may shoot to 12:1 even at 6500 and I can't get it right for some reason. That is another reason why I keep the timing so conservative.

As per fuel, the AF you see there is Int-X default value. There is no wideband connected to it.

Coolant temps - there is something wrong with how my Int-x displays the temps. It begun doing that about half a year ago. Just out of the blue all temp readings became 10C degrees or so higher. I had it checked at the mechanic, and the engine temps checked out fine. The fans don't even come on until it reaches 108 -110C as per Int-X. Could be because (just about when this happened) I got a new laptop at work and installed the software from the Microtech website. Not from the CD that came with int-X. Maybe that's why? Could be a bug, in that version.

The bottom line is this: that blast from the past T70 run on my car exactly as it is showing to run on the Statics video. Just on the verge of "yeah, it ain't that bad if you drive it hard". But guys that is not what the Esmeril Racing is claiming!
They claim it to be a fast spooling turbo, they claim 10PSI at 3500 and 12PSI under 4K and then refuse to provide any proof.
"It is what it is, we don't have to prove anything?" - they say.
Riiiiight...

I don't have to prove anything because I am not selling my half-*** system as a fully developed product. Yet if asked, I will always answer any questions, and hide no detail.

Same with Ray (BHR), and Jeff (MazdaManiac).
Ask them anything about their products, and they will provide you with every detail they can get their hands on. Dynos, logs, videos, pictures... you name it. Why so? Because we got nothing to hide.

Yet look at Ezmeril Racing:
They have a product which is in production, and is being installed on customers vehicles, at the price no less but a 6 grand (without even the EMS!).
Not a small chunk of change to drop on something that will then turn out not to be working as expected. They make all the claims, yet they refuse to show any proof, they even lie about the origin of their components from the very start.

Chris, remember the conversation we had just when you released the kit?
I raised a question about you removing the OEM bumper, and mounting the intercooler in it's place with some bracket, that you fabricated on your own, and you were like: Oh no, we had it tested, and it would stand to the requirements...

You had it tested? How may I ask? Maybe you had it crash tested too?
Rammed the "test car" into a concrete wall at 80MPH to see what happens? LOL

But wait, this wasn't it!
Next thing we know - bumper is back in the car.
Thanks for the idea rotorocks! ...well no there wasn't any thanks. After that conversation you quit answering my PMs for like 3 months. ...Didn't see my messages? Ohhh.. Well don't worry about it. It's cool I didn't give a ****, and even recommended the kit to a couple of guys who PMed me, asking what I think of it.
Sorry about that guys.

I didn't even start this caboodle with the purpose of ending it up where it is now, but it did. And it sure looks like I am not far from the truth.
We don't see any kit owners jumping in saying that I am wrong, do we?
Don't you think that this would have happened already if the kit operated at least somewhat close to what it is advertised to be? Heck yeah! Everyone would have been at my throat by now!
Look at how Pettit owners jump to defend their superchargers? The reason: Pettit is not perfect, but at least it works as advertised.
Not only you see no one defending this darn thing, but people who already own it PM me asking what would be a good turbo to use as a replacement. Why do you think that is happening?

Anyway, screw it.
To those who still reads read this rant, here is my totally unfair, and biased recommendation.
Wanna drop $6K plus on a turbo kit right away? With all honesty, get a Greddy with MazdaManiacs upgrade, or wait for until they release the BHR Kit.

Believe it, It is/will be the best thing for your money.
And those guys will never bullshit you about what it is or is not, or what it can and cannot do.

In addition:
-They do have a dyno that leaves no RPM spot uncharted
-They will show you the pictures of factories and facilities where they make their stuff if they say they went there to inspect it
-They will give you EXACT specs of their turbo and other components
-They will openly answer every one of your questions, and knowing Jeff and Ray and their attention to detail and dedication (which they continuously show) I say that their turbochargers will be perfect for your RX8.

WOW, that is a long post! Thank you for reading this.
Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Back on topic.

importshowoff84

I have the Esmeril kit purchased, not driven yet, but from others who have this and have posted their numbers, it is lower than what I expected. Knowing that, as a customer, as well as people thinking about purchasing this, I think it is fair to say that an updated dyno isn't much to ask. I mean I want to stand up for my purchase, maybe I will in a few days when I get my car back, but until then, I feel the creators should do that.

Sayin that you have personally seen this or that, others havent. Granted eveyr engine is deifferent given certain circumstances. But, it should generally be getting the same numbers. I am hoping to get around the 310-330 that is claimed on the homepage @ 12-13 PSI as I purchased the int-x to go with the kit so that I could reach these goals. All will be known with my setup May 30th.

You have everything to prove, as your market is us. The RX-8 community. Hopefully, I can step in to back this kit up liek I want to.

flyboi1121

lol, my only intention was to give this kit my own opinion and a dyno to show what i'm making.

i've never owned any other turbo'd cars so this is my first. rotor, i understand you put together a great kit for yourself and i'm happy for you man. you want to hear that your turbo is better/faster? maybe it is, and it sounds like you really know what you're doing.

also sounds like you think this kit is somewhat shadey since they are holding some of the information you're asking for (and you do have every right to), but as a customer, the guys were always there to help me and the customer service was great before purchase and way after. Yea it would've been great if they showed a recent dyno with their fix running strong at 12psi but i took the leap, the car is running great, i'm happy. that's all i'm saying in this thread.

I understand my opinions are all completely subjective.. but i was just hoping it can help the rx8 community a bit =]

importshowoff84

flyboi.....your results are the closest ive seen btw....but why aren't you able to take it to 12 PSI? did you ever get that issue (thats in your dyno sheet) fixed and gonna take it a little higher? Obviosuly you can't take it upo much further until you get an ignition upgrade....

rotorocks

flyboi, you are missing the point here.
I get plenty of praise from my own thread, I don't need it on this one. This is not about my turbo. My turbo is far from being great, as it is right now on my car, it actually looks pretty ghetto with all the changes I made. cuts to the manifold, patching up the holes for waistgate, and pipes...

This is about the fact that the maker of your kit is not being honest about his product.

This is not a question about what PSI the turbo ultimately can produce. It can produce a lot.
This is not about what HP it will make ether.
Having not driven a turboed car before, you may find yourself happy with what you have. Good for you.

This is about the fact that questions have been asked and no answers were given. Instead only ridiculous claims have been made.

From the beginning what I said was "...great for the track...", "...feels slow and unresponsive on the street..." that is all.
And that again was said in reference to the turbocharger itself, not the entire kit. The kit on it's own is great!

Yeah it feels faster for you because you are comparing it with the stock car. But had they maybe put more effort into selecting a different turbo, the Street fun could be 3X what it is. Instead of just saying, guys, this is how things are. It is a heavy turbo, it takes a little longer to spool, what does chris say?
Instead they just told you that it is gonna spool fast, while it does not. And left you to figure it out yourself.

Same as they said that they do not use ebay turbos and actually had them purchased from a manufacturer, and inspected the facilities and what not, and when asked about proof (that was in their thread somewhere, check it out) what was the answer?
There wasn't any. They say: "we don't need to prove anything to anyone", "it is what it is".
Kinda like in that joke about a cheating husband who was caught, and he came with some bullshit excuse but when confronted said: "this is my story, and I sticking with it".

You see what I am trying to say?

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

Uhhhh....Wow!

I think this conversation has turned into a non-objective one so I will not continue it after this post.

Just as a note, we did test the intercooler as a means to contain crash energy. You don't need to ram the car into a wall to know if the bumper bar works. There are non-destructive tests for this kind of object like a pressure/deflection test where deflection is measured relative to force/pressure applied and compared to the stock one. And yes, I know how to develop, implement and perform such test in a controlled environment being that I am a mechanical engineer with a good chunk of structural/stress analysis experience in developing new products that will/coould be subjected to mechanical stresses. Do you actually think the factory tests every bumper bar destructively?....and yes they have to test production units from the line regularly to comply with DOT standards. They don't, they test a few in actual real crash scenarios and from that develop baseline telemetry for what they would to perform non destructive test of production units. I apologize for not being more specific and allowing this kind of speculation to occur

About it originally being your idea and we not thanking you, I believe this to be totally untrue. We decided to keep the stock bumper for two reasons, none of which are that you suggested it:
1. The liability insurance involved in changing/replacing a crash component of a car regardless of any controlled testing would surpass 1/3rd of what an RX-8 is worth PER MONTH!!!!
2. The fact that many potential customers expressed that it would make them feel better in their belly if we worked around the stock bar and kept it there.

I apologize for not explaining this in more detail earlier, some of us would rather not post every imaginable developmental issue/progress/change we run into.....

This sounds more like a personal vendetta than a genuine interest in our kit and this thread is about someone trying to perform a review of our kit so I will refrain from further commenting about these issues.

Thanks,

Chris

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

We will have a dyno soon and that should take care of all this speculation.

Flyboi, your numbers are consisted with ours, you just haven't tuned it past 6700rpm, I explained what you had to do to accomplish this, let me know if you have any questions.

Louis, Same to you, pm me or call if you have any questions.


Chris

p.s.whether something is fit for a racetrack or the street has to do with personal preference........go look in the RX-7 forum and you will see what I mean....

rotorocks

Sure,
Mechanical engineer, keep on deviating from the subject.
I don't care about what you did with the bumper test. Thinking back, I did however mention to you the liabilities you are going to face if you replace the factory safety equipment. And I was just trying to be sarcastic with the crush test example.
I have no vendetta against you. Why would I? Dude, I don't even know you.
Your continuous reluctance to provide straightforward answers, or any kind of information that can back up the claims you've made simply raised my curiosity to the point where I couldn't resist but to eventually directly confront you. And so far it has been not without a reason.

I don't claim to know everything, I am no mechanical engineer either. I lean more towards using common sense rather than fancy engineering in my explorations. And there is nothing wrong with relying on equations and such to make sure things work. The thing that bothers me is: When a person of your professionalism suggests that 3 feet of 2.5" pipe might be the reason for a significantly slower spool on a turbocharger that is capable of potentially flowing in excess of 72 pounds of air...
I am sure being a mechanical engineer you are aware of the velocities at which the charge travels through that pipe, and the volume of air that goes through?

eastcoastrotary

woohoo, this is quite the discussion! i hope that chris can get on a dyno quickly to finally bring the numbers out into the open. i also hope, like rotorocks, that the speculation is proven wrong and that the esmeril kit CAN substantiate all of its claims. from what i've read, it definitely seems like a good kit and i hope that my impression is maintained by the dyno results

rotorocks

I am not speculating, and he wont be able to prove anything.
And he knows it, that is why he keeps on playing his game of "Uhh! where did you get this information?"

Well I get information from running the same exact turbo, on a (although not identical) but quite a similar setup, plus the OP dyno posts and the AF reading from 4K and on, plus OP himself said it

"It's full boost at 5.5k on the dyno cuz he's full throttle starting from 4k."

https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=50

Not to mention the posted videos, and quotes from other owners of his kit.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

Again, neither Jason nor I feel the need to prove anything to you, especially considering the method/tactics you are using to request the information. The only people we need to prove the kit to are our customers and so far we've had absolutely no complaints and it has performed as expected. You are however entitled to your opinion so feel free to keep commenting. However, I will not go into another "my setup is just like yours and therefore..." argument. That is not my purpose here and neither is the purpose of this thread. I appreciate your input but I will not get involved if any more discussions of the sort because I believe they are pointless.

I apologize to everyone else. If anyone is interested in getting any information regarding our kit because you are interested in purchasing it feel free to contact us via our webpage contact info.

Dyno will be up soon and maybe a plot too for everyone to see

Thanks,

Chris

rotorocks

More like it. Hopefully the plot will be done using the same turbo?

w0rm

That's a broken record since LAST FALL.

kevinD1226

i dont knwo what the big deal is.. if ur so confident in ur product than y has it been so long to post some dyno sheets of ur product?? many people here need to see this before dumping 6-7 thousand dollars into a turbo kit. by u guys takin forever in doin this not only does it make it look shady but it also makes 90% of us belive ur kit does not do what u claim it does... mazsport,and petit have vids/pics/ and dyno sheets posted on this forum and are active, time u step it up a notch, wether u feel u need to or not

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

wow, quite a bit of thread crapping in here...