Engine swap projects
 

Alright guys, I've been reading around here for quite a while now and see several threads with people inquiring about different engine swaps. (20B, 13B-RE, LSX, SR20, RB2X ect ect)

Lots of options out there for the guy that wants something different but still want to keep their awesome RX-8 platform. Which I think is a great idea, I'm all for engine swaps. Especially engines that can produce realiable power!

I've posted up here in the past and have had alot of response but nothing really ever came through. Now that winter is approaching us here in Canada its about time to start booking in major jobs while the cars are in hibernation.

I've been approached about the 20B swaps, LS1 swaps, 13B-RE and 13B-REW swaps, one person asked about a 4G63 (Eagle Talon/Mitsu EVO engine) swap.
It can all be done if the engine measurments are right and even if they are not it still can be done. The biggest thing is $$$.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is that we have some room in or winter build schedule and we would like to do one of these swaps for someone. Someone willing to spend a bit of money on getting the right parts and having a clean 'from the factory' install.
So shoot us your ideas and what your goals are for your car and we can work something out.

Currently we are swapping a Cosmo 13B-RE engine into our own '04 GT and plan on daily driving it with 350 whp while keeping all the factory accessories working and having it pass a legitimet e-test. So tearing into an RX-8 is nothing new to us.

Just figured I'd try to help some of you who are interested in such a thing. I could post some pics of our shop and some of our work if anyone would be interested who doesn't already know about us.

Thanks
Joe

Seeing as I'm the evil one of the group...here's my unsolicited 2 cents...

Yeah because we all know how unreliable the stock engine is...

Or they could drop 5k and get the same if not more power instead...Currently FI options are beginning to really become much more available and increasingly very formidable in comparison to the options.

Unless someone is wanting for personal reasons to drop a significant amount of money and take a difficult route...it simply no longer makes as much sense.

i was thinking about a swap. but not in canada.

Well its good to get feedback :) I have heard from many people how their FI Renesis doesn't make the power they were hoping for mostly due to the fact that whoever tuned it, made it very safe and cut the power back because of others the've tuned, blew up.

FI engines were desgined for boost. High compression FI engines are built to be drag race engines and get rebuilt almost every weekend.


I do understand what you mean, there are alot of great turbo and supercharger kits out there for the Renesis. Maybe the times are changing, honestly I haven't looked at any FI kits mostly because I think its a waste of time to try and boost a 10:1 compression engine running pump fuel. How long is that going to last for :rolleyes:

I always said if I got an RX-8, the first thing I'd do with it is take the Renesis out and put in a reliable rotary. Stock port, stock twin turbo's 13B-RE. Not saying that the Renesis is unreliable, in stock N/A form its great.....if you like driving an underpowered car.

Our dollar is about the same now :) so it shouldn't make a difference :lol2:

Engine swaps? This ain't no damn Civic.


All I hear is people bitching about the power, so they want to drop a bunch of coin on an SR20 swap? Some dreary Nissan 4-pot? Doesn't make any sense to me. Neither does dropping 10 grand on an old 13B just so you can have the illusion of reliability. Your plans are nice and all, but you know, somehow I just don't see reliability as a defining characteristic of an engine transplant. Running any car with any engine it isn't defined for is probably going to lead to more rather than fewer problems.

Well its been a while since you have checked, but so far the only limitation is the stock ignition system. The kits available now easily do 300-375 reliably. The new one out recently "Esmeril" is reporting to have figured out an ignition "fix" of sorts for the stock system, for example.

Esmeril Thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/esmeril-racing-turbo-kit-released-125203/

Anything after 400+ whp is technically "unknown land" as far as I am concerned. I have yet to see anything to make me feel like the tuners really have a firm understanding of the next "hurdle" or if one exists. But we will see...

I will have to disagree that the "older" power plant is the better alternative in light of the recent changes in aftermarket support available now and in the near future.

Agreed, however the nature of the new design is proving to be both reliable and tolerant of the abuse. Unlocking the potential of this last design change has only recently started to really pick up steam. It might be bias, but I definitely think from a system builder standpoint that the current engine is the better of the two choices.

Again unlike the older engine...this appears to be stronger and ALOT more tolerant of boost than the older version.

The problem has always been engine manglement, and ignition. Those hurdles have been or are being overcome with impressive results.

This either demonstrates your lack of comfort changing old ways, or simply a lack of knowledge. I bet if you spent some time and do a little bit of searching on the forum, your mind might be changed.

Yeah... these engines are junk. :D:

Over 20K miles daily driven out of it's mind @ 11 -12 PSI and drives like I just put the turbo in yesterday.
Seriously, do more research before making such statements.

No offence man, but you choose to ignore the info that has been proven, tested and implemented over and over.
Stop making yourself look ignorant.

Haaa I JUST GOT your avatar...

LOAD UNDER 11 PSI....heh...

Cool what kinda of whp does it make?

Donno, never bothered to dyno it. but I target 12:1 AF under boost and live in a hot and Humid state, so my car sees 100F+ temps near every day in the summer. I tried to go for higher boost too, but like the others found the ignition limits.

i was talking about the distance. and judging by what you have wrote thus far on this page i wouldnt choose you to work on my car. no offense but it doesnt seem like you have done your homework on our car or our engine.

R.

What are the costs of these kits that can produce 300+whp? Like I mean total costs, standalone (piggy-back), FI kit, piping, I/C, tuning ect.


How can you tell they are ALOT more tolerant of boost? Some people I know are running 25+ psi on pump fuel and street diving their 400+whp 13B RE powered RX-7's.

That I definatly agree with, having an engine management and a good igniton setup would be key to having a reliable FI car.

LOL, well I'm sorry to say, but I started this thread with the intention of getting rid of the stock engine because it doesn't interest me as far as reliable HP is concerned.

I'm sorry that it sounds like I dont know much about the newest turbo kits for these cars. Its probably because I dont and dont care to either.

RX-8 owners from Canada and the north eastern US have emailed me asking what else can be done to improve the power in their cars while still keeping it reliable. They have heard too many stories of these expensive Greddy kits not working so well. So I suggest swapping engines to an engine already built for boost and that can make decent power reliably. Seems like a logical thing to me, most dont realize how cheaply and engine swap can be done for.

Depends on what type of system you buy. I never recommend the Greedy kit unless Mazsport has performed the upgrades to it.

But generically your looking at starting 6k up to 12k for one of the best kits out there all inclusive.

A swap and turbo setup is going to be higher after everything is said and done. It also will have lots of kinks to work out before its "right".

One of the most recent advances which should further drop the price of FI kits will be the COBB AccessPort. Once that is released, a standalone will not be required.

Its very simple...the older 13B puked its guts out if you had any detonation. The new one does not...and has survived not just the abuse, but mild amounts of detonation. You can put alot more stress and abuse on this engine...where as the older supposedly more "reliable" one dies if ANYTHING goes wrong.

We are also starting to see the same power levels...and extrapolating the data...potentially even more.

The Greedy kit is not expensive...which is one part of the problem...its cheap and fails...

You also again indicate that you do not care to change old habits...that said, you are probably barking up the wrong tree here. Most of the users here are now only interested in FI of the current engine, or a 20B swap.

1. if the engine doesnt intrest you thats cool, it still intrests us and presents more of a challange and in no way is unreliable. the only reason the engine got a bad name was because greddy sent out ecu with maps setup to detonate the engines.

2.the rx8 owners in canada and the NE US look to have been schooled on the renny the same way you have "word of mouth" and have clearly been misinformed. if everyone is asking you for ways to make more power because of the greddy power numbers maybe you should do your homework first before advising them. how can you tell them to swap a engine when you dont even know the rennys market??? and the greddy kit is not expensive compared to other kits....OR YOUR ENGINE SWAPS!

3. I believe you may know what your doing as far as putting a new engine in the 8. but i dont think you now what the renny is capable of. wait for the igintion upgrade to see what power the renisis can yield before making more outlandish statments.

4. what is decent power to you?? 300whp 400whp?? i think you should see esmerils numbers now and new numbers before you go yanking the engine out of your car.

I wouldn't do a swap. But if I were to do one it would probably be a LS2. They're bullet proof, light for their displacement, compact, easily modified, and of course very powerful.

I hate to say this...but you are right...

A buddy has an RX-7 w/ an LS1...pushin something like 500HP NA...

It's utterly disgusting...

Yet...I have trouble not trying to hump the car....

Yep, and in light chassis like the RX series it's just plain nasty.

Met a guy at Road America a few years back that had a NA LS1 in a '93 RX-7. He'd bought it without an engine, and said he picked it up because in his mind the chassis was more suited to be a weekend track car/racer than the C5. He had time slips from the car running in the mid to high 11s.

Here is something to think about. That ~400whp RX7 is running 25psi to get that, as you say.

Once the ignition gets sorted out, which looks to be rapidly approaching, the Renesis should make ~350whp on ~14psi on pump gas without aux injection. You are getting into the same power range and you're using much less boost. Coupled with the already proven ability to withstand some detonation the reliability edge is going to fall with the Renesis.

Yeah? Ask them how many engines they've been through. I'll bet you its more than one each.

At 25psi, it should be more than 400+hp...upwards of 500hp.

And I don't see how that was on strictly pump gas alone. Gotta be some sort of auxillary injection, at least.

According to Esmeril's estimates...

its 400whp @ 16-17psi...on the new Renny

I will be very interested to see if that is attainable on pump gas w/o aux injection.

You and I are both on the skeptical list on that one...

But so far they have managed to talk the talk and walk the walk...

So I'm all about the wait and see....

I don't think the Renesis even gets to a bar of boost on straight 93 octane without auxillary injection.

^Hopefully we will see soon!

Check this out, here's a 13BREW swap on an RX-8.


http://www.autotechmotorsports.com/project-rx8.htm

I think your missing the point bub...

lol just a lil

Cool. Now let's see someone swap out an LS2 for an LS1.

*YO MANG I'm running 25psi on my T25* *Pshhhh f00 I'm running 15psi on my T86*

I don't know why people get all funny in the pants when boost number are involved. The number itself is USELESS without knowing what turbo it's on. That T25 on the Renny will do nothing and the 15psi through a T86 will send it back from whence it came. It's all about the CFM.

Point is, somehow, somewhere running 20, 30 ,40 psi became the "thing" when it came to how much performance you have and how much you can brag.

I also don't know when a 10:1 became high compression. How you should look at that number is....you can run a lower psi but achieve the same power then someone with a 9:1, using the same turbo's of course. Does it limit the amount of boost you can run.....sure. If you start needing to run higher boost to achieve the power you want then switch the turbo for one that is better matched. I would rather run 10psi and keep my motor cooler, happier and make the same power as someone that runs 25.

In the end though, it ALL comes down to the tuning.

Thank you for taking the time to post here. I agree with you on just about everything, but why a EVO motor lol.

I had a 05 GT and sold it, the renesis is a piece of crap period. It was boosted I made 300whp and kaabooomm. Now I own a 2008 350Z with the new HR motor and this thing stock would pull on my 8. This is also a nice motor to add and boosts like butter in n/a configuration.

I think the RX8 is one of the nicest looking cars on the road, and the LS7 would make it a true beauty. 505bhp N/A is what I would love to see, I am thinking of getting a wrecked 8 and build it my self as a side project.

Again thanks for giving these blind and ignorant fools a option to the slow ass two rotor dirt of a motor:puke: .

(FLAME SUITE IS ON)

I'm not going to flame you...but I will say that you are being ignorant.

You appear to be the type of person who makes snap decisions without understanding situations. It's a bad life philosophy...

You blew up your motor...so its junk...good call there...

You probably did it as cheaply as possible without understanding how anything works. If you had any type of clue, you would not make a gross generalization based off a single example.

What you did was buy a steak taco...add tons of hot sauce...hated the way the hot sauce made your taco taste...and so labeled the steak taco crap...

You fail to understand how the world works bud...

if anything i'm in red devil, i would be interested in an LS2/LS3 swap a couple years from now, but that will involve a trans swap as well.

Got to drive a buddies RX-7 w/ LS1 in it...

I hate to admit that it felt great having all that torque...

I did not like the handling of the car at all compared to the RX-8 tho...

Both the RX-7 and my RX-8 are built up for track duty so neither are slouches by any stretch...but they DO feel different and the LS1 is approximately the same weight as the 13B so it was not the change.

I came away from the whole thing with a new found appreciation for the RX-8 chassis and handling characteristics. It just needs an extra 100WHP to be perfect.

At the track I do not have problems pwning C5's or anything with obscene amounts of power. I just need a little extra juice for the straights. In my case I'm probably going to be getting the Esmeril kit and keeping boost conservative at first.

Good thing you sold it. We don't need another turd who can't tune.

guess you missed it .....in car and driver as well as a couple other tests. the rx8 turned a better track time than your 350z.....stock

do your homework....and i would put money on it you have neither an 8 or 350....or any friends for that matter. and your mom cant stand the thought she birthed you.

Wow you guys are terrible...

Anyways, since all of this engine swap bashing began and some of you provided me with a few links to look at, I see that some persistant people are making some decent power with these FI kits.

Since I'm taking the Renesis engine out of our RX-8 and was going to toss it in a corner for something to kick around on a rainy day and some of you think I know nothing about the Renesis and turbo setups, I've decided to fabricate my own turbo setup on our engine block. I'm going to be running it without any emissions, none of the factory ignition setup, and doing away with the factory ECU because I'm going to put it into this:

My 1972 Mazda 616

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/RPM-1/pics015.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/RPM-1/pics012.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/RPM-1/pics014.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/RPM-1/pics013.jpg

Originally equipt with a 4cyl piston engine, the 616 is the brother to the Mazda RX-2 which came with a rotary. Really the only differences between the two models.

My plan for this is to use a T04R BB turbo on the stripped down Renesis block and control everything with a new Haltech E6X using LS1 coils, which is the same turbo and ignition setup we used on our FC racecar that made 320whp at 11psi on pump fuel.

Should be an interesting project...

I don't think we are being "terrible" at all...I think we are being honest and quite frankly, you just do not like what you are hearing.

I don't blame you...you specialize in engine swaps, and we are telling you its pointless at this point to do. That sounds like money walking out the door...of course you are not going to like it.

I'm certainly glad you went out and starting checking out those links. If you continue to search I am sure that over time, you will change your mind regarding how much power and how reliable the new engine is compared to the older one.

Indeed it should. I am positive everyone would love to see this happen. Start a new thread and keep us posted!

hey guys, i must say that joe is a hell of a guy and very honest, when i had my rx-8 i was considering doing a 20b swap with joe, and i must say if i ever go back to an rx-8, i will go with a 2JZ " the law".... and i would defenetly allow joe to do my car.

ps. hey joe just for the record, how much would it be, just to install the engine and start the car.

Now there's a swap I can get behind.

Hey Jose, Thanks for the kind words, I haven't heard from you in a while I didn't know you sold the 8.
Installing a 2JZ probably wouldn't be a problem, as for cost....hard to say. Depends on how wild you want to go :) Keep in touch if you ever want to do something like that.

only swap I would consider would be a 16x :)

Haaa...you lamer....

16x + 7 Speed dual clutch FTMFW!!!

with you evil---start dropping to much power in this chassis and the car turns into something else. Been there-- done that.
Yep we do need a little extra--- i choose the pettit kit. she cranks saturday--I added a few little extras. But that should get the power to were i want it.
olddragger

Yep, this chassis is terrific...on the track I'm passing just about everything...which is impressive considering the supposedly "mediocre" power output.

It really only needs 100 extra HP to be a finely balanced sword...Anything above that is simply gravy...

Old video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...35336967829043

I let C5 pass because he kept reappearing after the long straight...but I would lose it in "teh twisties"...but you can see why he reappeared after the long straight...OMFG the acceleration on that thing is no joke at all...fun was had by all...

I'm not trying to out accelerate a C5...just not lose as much ground on the straights...If I can get that, I'll be a happy camper indeed...

Just wail until I post vids of my pratt and whitney equipped RX-8 swap.

It takes a while to spool the engine, and in city traffic it's very very slow. But when it does get to stretch its lets even the batmobile's got nothing.