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Engine rebuild:esmeril, ported, dowl pinned.
23 Attachment(s)
As stated above. This is a must see for those who are going FI. The build you see is the setup that most of us need! It will hold up and should not "crack under pressure"! DO NOT FORGET THE VIDEO!
OMAR MENA OJ IMPORTS MCALLEN, TX 956-739-6362 OJIMPORTS.COM http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...uay83/pic3.jpg Attachment 275225 Attachment 275226 http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...ay83/pic11.jpg Attachment 275227 Attachment 275228 A must do to sustain the boost!!! Attachment 275229 Attachment 275230 Attachment 275231 Attachment 275232 Attachment 275233 Attachment 275234 Attachment 275235 Attachment 275236 Attachment 275237 Attachment 275238 Attachment 275239 Attachment 275240 Attachment 275241 Attachment 275242 Attachment 275243 The above two do not allow much room, so the side seals wont fall in. The housing were put on a flow bench with very good results! starting point at 67 CFM (cubic feet per minute). AFter they were at 89 CFM. Attachment 275244 Attachment 275245 Attachment 275246 http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/k...7-03142737.jpg Attachment 275247 Hola! SEE THIS VIDEO!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/user/JosueDeLaO |
This thread is full of WIN! Thank you for sharing this! :)
Porting and Dowels aside. Can this rebuild be done with standard tools? Or does it require a monster press and other machine shop specialty tools? |
WOW - that is a lot of Dowels . I thought Chris only did 2 ?
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Originally Posted by suay
The above two do not allow much room, so the side seals wont fall in. The housing were put on a flow bench with very good results! starting point at 67 CFM (cubic feet per minute). AFter they were at 89 CFM.
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Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 3185145)
Which ports did you flow test? Is that for the intake and exhaust? 22CFM on each?
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From what I did with my friend with the shop. We did not need special tool. Knowledge, patience, and socket wrench. This build was not made by esmeril, only the apex seals. Any questions should be refred to Omar from Oj imports.
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Originally Posted by suay
(Post 3185251)
From what I did with my friend with the shop. We did not need special tool. Knowledge, patience, and socket wrench. This build was not made by esmeril, only the apex seals. Any questions should be refred to Omar from Oj imports.
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In other words do the work your self, easy E1 your name says it all. READ!!!!! Things in life are not put on a silver platter. As for the flow test it was done for the intake and exhaust. WE all know it doesn't just take a socket wrench. Just got word on the flow bench. It's a percentage flow rate increase. It pretty complicated to explain. 67-89% was the cfm. The machine is called superflow sf-600. (you tube it)
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Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 3185145)
Which ports did you flow test? Is that for the intake and exhaust? 22CFM on each?
Suay, glad you got it together and that the porting worked (kinda hard to explain over the phone but Omar seemed very knowledgeable which made it easier)...kudos to both Omar and you. Can't wait to see some numbers. :) Chris |
boricua donde estabas? gracias por todo!
addendum: It took extensive time to do the job! |
Originally Posted by suay
(Post 3185308)
In other words do the work your self, easy E1 your name says it all. READ!!!!! Things in life are not put on a silver platter. As for the flow test it was done for the intake and exhaust. WE all know it doesn't just take a socket wrench. Just got word on the flow bench. It's a percentage flow rate increase. It pretty complicated to explain. 67-89% was the cfm. The machine is called superflow sf-600. (you tube it)
All I asked was whether you flow tested the intake or exhaust or both. You were very vague in your comments with the little bit of information you supplied. And what is this suppose to mean? "67-89% was the cfm" 67-89% of what cfm? Is this an increase over stock? If it is I'm amazed by looking at the barely touched intake ports. You post a thread like this and people are gonna ask questions. I hope your prepared to answer them. If you want to keep it all a secret then don't put it out for the public to view. And if you do please put up enough information to substantiate the post. And suay I've been porting Rotaries since 1979. I think I might have a little knowledge in this field. I'll stop asking questions now because I'm getting nowhere.
Originally Posted by ChrisRX8PR
(Post 3185309)
I think he is referring to the exhaust port which is regarded by many as "un-portable" but we have been "massaging" it with great success for a while now. Omar's (OJ Imports) test are proof of this...its not all just about making it bigger, smoother also works :)
Chris The exhaust ports can be ported. I've done it. But not as far on the trialing side as this. My main concern is loosing some of the combustion cycle now that the port opens earlier also. |
[/QUOTE]
Thank you Chris. The exhaust ports can be ported. I've done it. But not as far on the trialing side as this. My main concern is loosing some of the combustion cycle now that the port opens earlier also.[/QUOTE] The port does open a little earlier. This doesn't help the bottom end (<2k rpm) but it greatly helps evacuate gasses at high rpm...specially with a turbo. It also has the side effect of spooling the turbo faster as well which is a good thing. We don't have much exhaust duration compared to a REW engine...this helps with that. Chris p.s.I am sure Suay didn't mean anything by his post. I know you are knowledgeable and your questions are legitimate. He probably thought you might be another newbie asking questions without searching, I know that is not the case. |
those apex seals have esmeril racing on them? that is pimp.. what is the difference in those seals and stock ones?
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Alright, I get the upgraded seals and the porting (despite whatever controversy) but what is the point of pinning a Renesis? What kind of boost are you planning on running? I've never heard of any piece of the engine failing before the apex seals. I'm honestly curious what the benefit will be.
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Originally Posted by Hesselrode
(Post 3185850)
those apex seals have esmeril racing on them? that is pimp.. what is the difference in those seals and stock ones?
That is because they are Esmeril Racing Apex Seals. The only thing they have in common with the OEM ones is the shape ;). There is a thread on them in this section, search for it :) Chris |
Originally Posted by blackenedwings
(Post 3186139)
Alright, I get the upgraded seals and the porting (despite whatever controversy) but what is the point of pinning a Renesis? What kind of boost are you planning on running? I've never heard of any piece of the engine failing before the apex seals. I'm honestly curious what the benefit will be.
You can even cause failure in this area from pure torque if running really high boost but normally it happens from detonation. Simple, weakest link...first are the apex seals which are addressed with our set and next is the pinning to prevent cracking of the plates...now you have a 5-600whp capable Renesis. We reached 414 on a non pinned, non-apex sealed engine but the margin for error is small. the apex seals widen that margin by a mile...the dowel pinning further widens that. Chris |
wow nice,
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Originally Posted by ChrisRX8PR
(Post 3186236)
the next thing to go is the front plate which cracks in the area around the top front dowel pin.
Chris |
Cool info, not sure why you are being so secretive though.
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Nice! I'm certainly looking at the various options for tricking out a Renesis motor if I have an engine failure and need to replace it. No point in swapping in a basic reman, because if the motor is already out I plan to put in some goodies too. I didn't realize the Esmeril seals were resilient enough to bring the survivability of the front plate into question, thats actually very good.
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i'm sorry for the lash "easy" i honestly thought you were a newbie, lol! No honestly i am just know what my friend and owner of oj imports tells me. When i write 67 CFM rated in %, I mean it was 67 stock and after the port it jumped up to 89% CFM. I know very little and have read my ass off since I had the car in late 03'., but as we all know this motor is it's own entity. I can tell you this, what you see in front is one of the first of its kind and I am glad to share the info with you guys the best to my knowledge. Questions refering to the port should be refered to OJ imports as stated above. YOu can send your motor and will not be disappointed. Once again sorry for the lash. I just can't tell reactions from typing at times.
ps I feel good about this setup and will have numbers soon. SWAY (I spell it suay since someone had chosen that name already.) Thanks again |
im helping to do this setup soon:)
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Originally Posted by suay
(Post 3187156)
i'm sorry for the lash "easy" i honestly thought you were a newbie, lol! No honestly i am just know what my friend and owner of oj imports tells me. When i write 67 CFM rated in %, I mean it was 67 stock and after the port it jumped up to 89% CFM. I know very little and have read my ass off since I had the car in late 03'., but as we all know this motor is it's own entity. I can tell you this, what you see in front is one of the first of its kind and I am glad to share the info with you guys the best to my knowledge. Questions refering to the port should be refered to OJ imports as stated above. YOu can send your motor and will not be disappointed. Once again sorry for the lash. I just can't tell reactions from typing at times.
ps I feel good about this setup and will have numbers soon. SWAY (I spell it suay since someone had chosen that name already.) Thanks again Apology accepted. |
Originally Posted by ChrisRX8PR
(Post 3186236)
...first are the apex seals which are addressed with our set and next is the pinning to prevent cracking of the plates...now you have a 5-600whp capable Renesis.
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drivetrain?
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Axles i think :)
Good setup suay, keep up the good work! What are your goals? Anyway, something i hate about 13b-msp porting are the intake ports interiors. You really need to do a good job filling and reshaping the horrible interiors to further increase flow. I usually do the above mentioned oil system work and at times i smooth some of the ugly spots in the water pump housing. It probably won't do much but while you're there... :) |
Intake Manifold
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Originally Posted by Kazuma
(Post 3187416)
Intake Manifold
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Intake manifolds don't "handle" horsepower.
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^hahahaha XD yeah.
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Originally Posted by ChrisRX8PR
(Post 3186236)
Simple, weakest link...first are the apex seals which are addressed with our set and next is the pinning to prevent cracking of the plates...now you have a 5-600whp capable Renesis. Chris
Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
(Post 3187383)
You will have another hurdle when you crest 500. Easy has already seen what happens. ;)
I will say that their is an engine here in AZ that had a serious issue above 500 WHP. This problem is something that everyone has overlooked. Including myself. |
^^^ and I wonder what that would be.... Hmmmmm ;-)
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Originally Posted by 09Factor
(Post 3188093)
^^^ and I wonder what that would be.... Hmmmmm ;-)
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Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 3188066)
I'm not going to say anything about this issue until I do a little more research and data gathering.
I will say that their is an engine here in AZ that had a serious issue above 500 WHP. This problem is something that everyone has overlooked. Including myself. |
Easy has my attention!
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Originally Posted by pdxhak
(Post 3188257)
Easy has my attention!
I have ran at 500whp for a considerable amount of time and haven't ran into any other issues...at least not with the engine. I have also been involved with two other engines in PR that are in the range also, one in a race car and one in a road driven RX-8...(and the race car one is above 600whp) Unless its an issue with the drivetrain (which are documented) I have not ran into any other issues with the engine once you dowel pin it and add the apex seals...it pretty much takes everything I can send its way up to the limit of my fuel system. My injectors are good to about 550whp and my fuel pumps are good to 720whp Chris p.s. the OEM intake mani can reach 500whp...like Charles said, it does nothing but hold the boost which it can. The power band just doesn't stretch as high as the OEM one because the intake many becomes a restriction. |
when are going to dyno Chris ? - we need something to liven the place up a bit :)
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 3188291)
when are going to dyno Chris ? - we need something to liven the place up a bit :)
We have been crazy busy lately. As you might or might not know, most of my work background has been in Medical Devices even though my degree is in Mechanical Engineering. Many of the metallurgical and manufacturing processes are the same as the automotive/aerospace industry or any other industry for that matter (albeit, with much more quality control) because we are still basically just making parts out of the usual materials (Stainless steels/Plastics...with some exceptions of course). Esmeril Racing is part of Esmeril Industries LLC which manufactures medical/aerospace devices and provides process development services and we have been very busy with that part of the business. Bottom line is...I want a dyno as much as you guys. I also want to make sure everything is perfect so I don't waste our time since it has taken so long to have a free day to go to the dyno. Right now my APV is closed permanently until I hook up my new actuator circuit. Once I do that, I will bring it in and get you some numbers. Best regards, Chris |
I just got off the phone with a friend of mine discussing the a fore mentioned issue I brought up. Well due to contractual obligations he has with Mazda he can not allow me to elaborate on this.
He told me he would have to kill me. JK Let's just say that there are differences in the 13B eccentric shaft and the Renesis eccentric shaft. The differences make the Renesis shaft a not so wanted piece in High HP, High Torque applications in my opinion. This is all I can say. I wish I could say what I know. But I told my friend I would not elaborate. |
Let's all offer Easy a drink! Bet he will elaborate after some litres of vodka or rum!
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Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 3188647)
I just got off the phone with a friend of mine discussing the a fore mentioned issue I brought up. Well due to contractual obligations he has with Mazda he can not allow me to elaborate on this.
He told me he would have to kill me. JK Let's just say that there are differences in the 13B eccentric shaft and the Renesis eccentric shaft. The differences make the Renesis shaft a not so wanted piece in High HP, High Torque applications in my opinion. This is all I can say. I wish I could say what I know. But I told my friend I would not elaborate. You are being more secretive than you need to be, however, Erick, this person has talked about this at length before (not here) |
Ahh!
Chris should pull that "dirty harry" pistol, meaning the intake manifold on the "project rx8". I bet that would go really well with this setup. I am running the stage three from mazsport and of course the coils from esmeril since we all know the mazposrt coils were bad:scared:. Any who I thank you all for your support.
SWAY |
^ah yes, the type 3 mazport kit with the mystery turbo....
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Originally Posted by chickenwafer
(Post 3188694)
I know who you speak of, but it isn't a Renesis engine, let's be clear, it was a Renny e-shaft in a 13B-REW....
You are being more secretive than you need to be, however, Erick, this person has talked about this at length before (not here) Then spit it out Dave if you know it all. |
hahaha. No Sh*t the turbo had no name on it I felt jipped as many others did. Bought a much better one though. Yeah dave spit it out. As far as numbers (bse 50) I would like 450 (max) with no problems!
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Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 3188807)
As I said before Dave I'm not talking about Boxcars engine. All I am saying is that are differences in the Renesis and the 13B eccentric shafts. Which make the Renesis eccentric shaft weaker. And more prone to bending under high HP applications.
Then spit it out Dave if you know it all. I'm talking about an engine Glen build for a different customer that used an RX-8 e-shaft and was bent out of spec at 550-rwhp. Glen talked about this on a different forum, so that's why I don't get the secretiveness...
Originally Posted by glenrx7
do not use an 8 shaft for high power turbo engines.....You will be rebuilding it quickly....I am in a rush and have like 50 pms to return so after that I will post my experience
Originally Posted by glenrx7
Well first I have been building rotary engines for a long time....
I built a 13b rew for a customer of ours at AZRR, his original had spun a bearing and the shaft was toast. So after some long nights talking to Maada Na engineers it looks like the 8 shaft was built in the same way as the third gen shaft. I had finite element data, mazda engineering data basically telling me that the shaft was built just as strong as the third gen.......... Dyno day come and we are hitting some pretty bad ass numbers right off the bat about 420 with 300+ foot pound with low boost about 13psi, out of the blue we loose 20% across the board. So I go to work checking spark and just about every thing, things get worse as we drive it then I start feeling it in the clutch bam it stops running. Take it apart and we have a bent shaft about .006 of an inch out at the front. This caused the engine to eat it self alive. So, I went to the long task of figuring out why...so far what I can come up with, is there is an important tempering process that was not performed on these shafts for what I think is cost. the tempering alows the metal to deform and spring back this did not, it deformed and stayed there. What is its limits, I am not sure but putting any kinda stress on these would scare me. So I will never build a turbo engine with this shaft again.
Originally Posted by glenrx7
Nothing over 8k, here is the deal my man. It being harder is the issue. If you have a hardened piece of metal you need to temper it in order for it to be able to have "memory" with out memory it will bend and stay that way. Tempering will soften it in comparison to a non tempered hardened shaft.
Shaft deformation is something that is natural and will happen. Look, I dont want to brag or try and make my self look great or anything like that I try and stay humble, to help you out let me give you a little background info. I was trained to build the top racing rotary engines by Paul Yaw of Yawpower. I built all the engines that came out of his shop for the last 6years or so. Paul moved on to motec and injectors so no more engines, He helped Tom and I start azrotaryrockets. We are also "sponsored" if you will by Mazda, i act as tech support for there rotary team and motor sports team..... After coming from Yaw Mazda came with us, they send us project and customers, so I would say we know a little about this subject. So take my word or dont ...I was aiming to help thats all....Good luck.
Originally Posted by glenrx7
Now if the shaft is bent .006 it is out of :mazdaspec" by .0045.
The shaft being bent .006 at one point of the shaft would give you a diameter of .012 meaning the shaft is digging .006 all the way around pushing the rotor out of place destroying the bearing etc. Here is the thread: http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ead.php?t=8249 I also talked to Glen in person about it at last years SevenStock |
pwned.
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Well then Glen has a bad memory. He told me today that what we discussed he would prefer to not bring out in public.
So I'm glad you could enlighten us Dave. I'll have to remind Glen what he said in his thread. |
I'm not trying to ruffle and feathers, Erick. Perhaps Glen is talking about a different situation...I dunno. I just remember this.
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Originally Posted by Easy_E1
(Post 3188099)
I'm not referring to Boxcars engine Dave.
his isn't a Renesis anyway. i'm thinking physics and dynamics here. Oh btw Chicken and old coot guy.. it's Glenn with two "n's" /thread crapping. |
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