So, you want to be a tuner? Look no further.
 

Evening,

First the bad news; audio quality is poor, and I didn't edit it because it would take me several days to edit the dead air for something that would have bad audio anyway.

However, due to my impending Doctorate - I will likely never teach this course again. So I'm hoping that those who have already taken the full hands on course chime in open source style and we can all learn from each other moving forward as I will simply not have the time to aid everyone as I'd like too.

So without further ado - enjoy 12+ hours of tuning excitement including hands on Cobb and Mazdaedit action. Any crying about the format of the video or the audio quality are more than welcome to try and change it.

Here is how to play these files:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkJL...ature=youtu.be

You will need to download TeamViewer (which is a cool software to have anyway) at http://www.teamviewer.com/en/index.aspx

And here is the link to the videos.

http://strikersdomain.org/RX8/

They start with 1 - and go to 10.


Maybe someday - I'll redo it in a professional format.

Or better yet, one of you smarty-pants take over for me and start running the show.


Here is the link to the source files:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...mc&usp=sharing

LOL @ your wallpaper

My wallpaper has no equal in either manliness, awesomeness, patriotism or Murika-ness.

George Washington was a bad ass.

looks like I'm going to be up for a while

dling it right now, should take 10-15 minutes for me (300Mbps line baby)

See if I can convert it, haven't do video editing for a while.

Cool. Must be nice to have mad bandwidth.

Posted From RX8Club.com Android App

Bandwidth is cheap here, i can go 1gig at anytime for just 20 bux extra, lol

Everything is in my comp, gonna check it out tonight

im excited. i need to start learning. Thanks for putting all your wisdomly knowledge online for us

wow thanx :)

Kane,

Congrats on Mod status!

Also anyway you can upload the actual PPT and or any of the data sheets used.

Thanks Kane!!!

I'll put the source files together when I get time.

Posted From RX8Club.com Android App

Hey thanks I've wanted to catch a class for a while. Hopefully the videos will make due.

Added all the source files.

Murika.

Oooooo

Well I feel fucking stupid now...

:lol:

Why?

Raise your hand if you had a personal tuning session from Kane, but you still have been watching these videos over and over to validate what you learned

*raises hand*

lol love this

*hand raised*

I'm hoping we can get discussions going on here - let's get the masses involved and those with experience can help me out.

After the class, I have taken a few more logs. Some just driving, some WOT, some idling.

Normal driving isn't telling me much, because I don't have the patience to search through that much data and find issues. I do how ever intend to spend some time writing some macros that will search the data for me and essentially tell me which cells in my AFR tables need adjusting (or more appropriately, the VE map).

However, the immediate items I can tackle right now are looking at my idle logs. The most recent three logs have shown that my LTFT have been at -6.4, -6.4, and -8.74. I adjusted my injector bank 1 size to + 7% (multiply by 1.07) to see if that would correct the issue. After relogging my RPM band and getting a new idle log, on average, my STFT are now hovering around +3. I then reduced the injector size by 3%, and we'll see how we do tomorrow.

On a completely different note, I had a question about the power tune that we created, Kane.

What you had me do was to go through the AFR maps and adjust any cell that was below 12.1 to 12.1, then add in some safety factor to the high rpm/high load ranges.

My question is do I need to make this corresponding adjustment in the VE fuel tables? In those same ranges, adjust the VE to be 1 so that the map is truly hitting 12.1 instead of .92*12.1? Or am I misunderstanding what the VE table is doing?

Thanks.

I want to care, really. But no matter how many times I tell new tuners to stay away from the factory VE map they head straight to messing with it. There's no point trying to help people who are bent on messing it all up regardless, so why not let them do it all on their own? The really sad part is tuning something like a Cobb AP is so basically simple if you just focus on getting the desired output rather than unnecessarily becoming fixated on making the input and output match up.

Also, tuning methodology has to be geared specifically toward the tuning device being used. While there is a lot of crossover on general principles, the specific device defines how you go about getting the desired result. As an example, adjusting the VE map on a dedicated aftermarket ECU can be a preferred place to start as opposed to the Cobb AP on a factory ECU.

no. Do not touch the VE table. Well, in some cases you have to, but right now isn't one of those cases.
Think of it like this. Your fuel table is what you want to hit, "12.1". The VE table is just a piece of the equation that brings you to the desired AFR you input into your fuel table, "12.1". If for some reason you can't hit the desired AFR target, you input into the fuel cell and your MAF & Injector Scaling is on target, then you can refer to the VE table to make the changes in the corresponding cells.
An example of where you want to use the VE table is something that some of us see in the 6200-6300 rpm range. the Volumetric Efficiency is changing here due to the ports opening. I saw consistent lean spiking here so I went to the VE table to add the fuel needed to control the lean spike.
Hopefully that was helpful and I didn't pass on too much bad info...

^^^ That. Perfect explanation. Use the VE table only as the last resort (well second to last).

I'm no expert but VE is for "Volumetric Efficiency", which in an stock NA engine, is inherent to the engine geometry, design, etc. I don't see why you would want to go there unless you are ported or boosted. If fuel trims are out of whack, it is because the values on the tables don't match reality: MAF sensor vs MAF table, injector flow (which is dependent of fuel pressure as well as injector performance), etc.

One thing I remember from Kane's teaching the first day we ever spoke on the phone .. 'dont touch ve table ... dont touch ve table ... dont touch ve table'.

Correct. FI Motor's and ported motors will need to adjust the VE accordingly; but 99.9% of NA factory motor tuning will not require the VE table. However, since no two engines are built the same, sometimes it is needed.

thanks for releasing the video!

VE is changed whenever the way air enters or exists an engine is changed.

That is not as significant on our engines as all intakes and exhausts designed for our cars are no real benfet over stock so VE stays the same, put the same mods on an LSX and it makes a huge difference on VE

What mod makes a significant difference in VE on a NA RENESIS?

F'ing up the intake harmonic resonance features for one ...

In a positive way? Nothing really - maybe luck of the draw that you have a higher compression engine. The Renny is about dialed in on the VE front. You can muck it up pretty easy if you start jacking around with port opening times and all that.

LOL - Yup

So how do we want to go about doing this knowledge sharing? I would like to contribute and post images of some of my tune params (maf scale, injector scale, ignition timing) just so people have an idea of what range others are using, but we need a clean way to do this so that A. newbies dont just plug in these random values in their maps and assume all will be kosher, and B. people dont mix up S1 vs S2 map values.

I say you load up the knowledge gun. If someone wants to shoot himself/herself with it, that's a personal choice which should be based on the uncommon common sense.

Haha true, although there is a bit of morality that comes with hearing someone shot themselves in the foot, vs providing them a loaded gun w/o telling them its loaded and having them blow off a toe :lol2:

I would love ignition timing discussion, its still not very clear to me nor is it something you can dial in without EGT and a dyno, without those you know you either have it or not but cannot tell how much potential you are leaving untapped.

I absolutely agree. Except wouldn't EGT's really come into play when retarding timing? The only ignition timing that I play with per suggestion is up at the top end quadrant of the RPM/load band where the stock map tapers off to a flatline. At that point my timing is advanced to what is close to linear from the previous data points.

Without a dyno I just get the 'seat of the pants' assurance that the car isn't pulling back on the top end.

Can someone direct to where I can find info on adding OMP values and kicking on the fans earlier? I read these are quite simple with the COBB but so far I have really only been confident enough to mask a CEL with it. I have read alot of the other tuning threads but nothing seems "step by step". Did I miss something?

You can tune either fuel or timing by EGT just not both at the same time. At low loads there is basically a bell curve on EGT vs timing. At best timing EGT is lowest and on either side, advanced or retarded egt begins climbing unless you are way too advanced and EGT begins dropping with ECT climbing due to losses from knock.

At WOT EGT may not stop dropping because knock will take over, but you will notice the power dropping off. At that point you need to pull some timing or add some water before things get hairy.

You can do the same sort of curve with AFR and find best AFR at a set timing. The stock o2 sensor is pretty responsive with both AFR and EGT and both can be read with a cheap obd2 dongle and Torque.

What you really need to tune right is a good set of det phones, then everything else begins to fall into place.

I'll have to check when i leave work, but I see two entries in torque for EGT (EGT 1 and EGT 2). I've been using the catalyst temp bank pid just for casual exhaust temp monitoring.

I believe Kane said I am using some aggressive timing up top. No knocking but you raise a good point. I'll see if i can get some EGT data

On an NA Renesis you don't need to GAS about anything other than keeping it near Stoich/lean for low loads, EGT tuning by rotor is for WOT only. Tuning by a single combined AFR isn't too far off from just guessing ...

I'm glad someone brought up timing... I could really use some help in this area. as far as tuning goes can't we dial in our afr then take note of voltage & g/sec before and after timing changes to see trends and gains. when there is no longer a gain with voltage & g/sec you know you have pushed too far? ricer math at its finest

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I'm just going to stop using the word knock, because too many people take it to mean obvious audible knocking sounds. What I really mean is detonation, you know the stuff that can cause the audible knocking sounds.

How do you know if you have detonation without det phones? If you can hear it from the drivers seat at high RPM and WOT it's already too late. Also mild detonation at lower RPMs and loads sounds much more like a belt chirp than a recognizable knock.

Detonation is happening at higher rpms even on a stock engine/tune. It's the reason why Mazda nerfed timing at high rpms and put so much fuel in at high loads. You can get some power there, but the detonation gets worse! You can even get less detonation and more power by using less split (and sometimes less timing), but if your engine ever goes lean that's suicidal.

The trick with NA is to balance the power added advancing timing with the power lost into the coolant/oil from detonation.

If you can hear knock at high rpm/WOT then you are probably hearing the result of preignition. Yes this kills engines fast! Bad fuel, a bad tune, or any number of mechanical failures causing the engine to go lean can cause enough detonation to cause preignition given enough time at WOT.

Dashcommand monitors EGT, but is not nearly as responsive as it needs to be to actually discern anything with.

Also I know Kane explained it but why do we tune idle first? instead of last like most other cars.

Ah, noted. Other than a 'det phone' (never seen/used one) is there other means of diagnosing detonation/preignition (i assume that is what your knock box was designed for?)

I'll for sure post by trailing timing map when i get home, but here is my stock vs current timing map for the leading ignition

Base
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1403030955

New
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1403030955

Mine does not go any more than 35 on the leading map, 20 on the trailing

Yea I may back mine down a bit after Harlan gave me a scare with his speech lol ... not to mention we arent really even the hottest part of the summer which could only make matters worse I assume should I have some unnoticed det.

The tune that Kane had tested with me stepped up only 0.5 degree per 1 row post 6k@60% ... the posted videos used 1 degree per 1 row which is where i got my numbers from.

We do idle first, because we have to scale the MAF and Inj1 alone before the other injectors start messing up our readings.

I designed the knock box as a failsafe to cut fuel/ignition in the event things went overboard. When I started it I knew very little about knock on a rotary and mostly just the misinformation lurking on the forum, that project will continue, but I found something easier. I have an off the shelf setup that works as filtered det phones, it's very effective and costs about $100 to build, I highly recommend anyone tuning to build a set.



Leading can gain power, but you are adding detonation. At high RPM it isn't as big a problem, and NA it isn't that big a problem. The real threat is when the detonation heats up your plugs enough to cause preignition, then things go south fast.

That leading map doesn't look that aggressive, if you have good gas available you might be able to push it further. But really I can't recommend enough building your own det phones.

Trailing plugs exist to control detonation at high rpm. This is because of the way combustion happens in the chamber. The leading plug does most of the work, but the flame front moves forward much faster than it moves backwards. You end up with a pocket of unburnt air stretching from the trailing apex seal forward. If chamber pressure reaches the detonation limit of the fuel (there is also a time delay involved) before that pocket is burn you get detonation. If you can light that fuel first with the trailing plug then most of the pocket can be burnt and detonation can be reduced or avoided, alternately you can just pull timing until the peak pressure is less than the detonation limit of the fuel.

If you push more trailing timing (without effecting timing overall) then you can avoid some detonation. But because the trailing plug lives in an ultrarich environment, if the fuel mix goes lean it makes the trailing plug much more effective which has the same effect as advancing timing.

This is why Mazda has used 3 plugs per housing before for high rpm engines. It's to have better control of the trailing pocket and detonation. This is also why running less split means more power, but can also mean less safety.

Idle is tuned first because it's a known reference. Once you have it tuned everything else falls into place.