Adaptronic Select Discussion
 

Figured it about time we get an Adaptronic Select thread open outside of the vendor area.

The Adaptronic Select is a MAP based piggy-back ECU solution for the RX-8 that takes control of a number of key functions and allows for MAP (and multiple other) based tuning solutions utilizing its own built-in MAP sensor. Additionally you can build load, throttle, external input, and MAF based maps.

I have an April 2012 Production run of the Adaptronic and had to make a couple minor adjustments to get it CEL friendly on my USDM 2004 4 port. I'll post on those things a little later as well as cover stuff like Idle tuning, cold / warm crank tuning, and Adaptronic's unique "Adaptive Mode" closed loop based auto tuner.

I'll also cover CEL suppression and how to pass emissions tests by pairing the Adaptronic up with a Cobb AccessPORT (something else I'm currently doing). Even though the Adaptronic will suppress your CEL, it will not allow for passing OBD2 readiness tests required for all 2001 and newer vehicles.

As other things come up I'll be sure to mention them. Anyone else with an Adaptronic please chime in and share your experience / findings / etc.

Looking forward to it. Thanks for sharing.

Interested to hear more about this. Liked how it sounded from the vendor, but someone using it is always better.

Thanks for sharing, I'm really considering this.

Thanks, ShellDude!

I passed PA emissions inspection today with a little help from my AP :)

What codes will the Adaptronic throw?
 

By default the Adaptronic is set to reset your DTCs the instant they become active. This is great if you don't have emissions, evap, and general inspection requirements... Not so great if you do -- as many States in the US require that OBD2 Readiness tests pass and they don't always rely on the presence of a CEL.

The following info applies specifically to USDM RX-8s running Select ECUs made up to April of 2012. Future production runs may resolve some of the items here and will be noted where I've been told that to likely be the case.

If you set your Secondary Serial "In" Port to something other than "ELM327" the Select will not attempt to reset DTCs automatically and can you find the status of things.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1345855684

Here are the DTCs you can expect to see out of the box:

• P0661: SSV solenoid valve control circuit low ON 2
• P2401: EVAP system leak detection pump control circuit low

P0661 is due to the way that the SSV and VDI are wired into the Select. As best as I can tell the Select doesn't send voltages, or the incorrect ones at certain times, to the factory ECU. The SSV and VDI are still functional, however the code is present. You can choose to mask it with an AP, or you can do like what I did and bypass the Select completely for SSV and VDI control. You do this by snipping the 1L and 1W leads running into the Select and extend them directly to the factory ECU (severing it from Select in the process).

http://foxed.ca/rx7manual/2003mazdar...HJ0140W002.png

P2401 is thrown for similar reasons and is due to Mazda failing to include EVAP pump to ECU pinouts in the 2004 workshop manual. You can see the omission here by checking positions 4D and 4H: PCM INSPECTION. Additionally Mazda failed to document the P2401 DTC in 2004. We didn't see mention of it until the 2005 manual came out. Mazda chose to document the pinouts for EVAP pump at this time too: DTC P2401.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachments/...can000035c.jpg

The problem here is that Adaptronic followed the Mazda diagram and failed to allow these two lead to pass thru the Select to the factory ECU. So as far as it's concerned the EVAP is dead.

You could always just mask the P2071 with an AP, but doing so will not cause the EVAP Readiness test to pass. That means a big fat "F" if you try to do an emissions test.

The easiest way to solve this bridge 4D and 4H across the two ECUs. I did this with a little bit of wire and some small solder hardened leads tapped into the back of the two harnesses connectors. Adaptronic has stated that they will resolve this problem in future production runs.


Once you've worked through the "bugs" what remains is the stuff we'd normally expect to see in a boosted application:

• P0172: System too Rich (Bank 1)
• P2097: Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Rich bank1
• P0410: Secondary Air Injection System

P0172 is very common DTC to throw when tuning for FI. It's going to happen every time your AFRs drop down into the 11s... there's really not much you can do about it, except mask it with an AP or stay out of boost.

P2097 is the famous "No CAT" code. Mask it with an AP or install an catalytic converter.

P0410 will be thrown if you have disconnected your air pump. Even if you mask this DTC with an AP, the Secondary Air Pump Readiness test will continue to fail until you plug in an Air Pump <hint> <hint>.

That's about it. With a little bit of creativity and an AccessPORT to aid you you'll pass any OBD test thrown at you. You'll also notice that I'm being very conservative on the DTCs that I mask.

Great info man.

Just wait till I cover its Rapid Learning Adaptive Closed Loop mode!

Bring it! I'm saving up :lol:

Rapid Learning - Adaptive Fuel Table Closed Loop
 

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1345867011

Here's what the manual has to say about Adaptive mode:

Something else to note... Adaptive mode isn't meant for every day driving (the manual covers this too). It's meant purely as a tuning aid.

Here's what my VE fuel map looks like with a bunch of low/mid point rpm/map values tuned by the Select (cells in green are "auto" tuned):

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1345866430

Now, this doesn't mean the rest of the map hasn't been touched. As a matter of fact my 8 was tuned for WOT on a dynajet by an old school tuner who'd rather manage the map themselves over letting a piece of software tune it for you.

Adaptive mode enabled me (as the wannabee consumer who knows enough to be dangerous) to make a couple simple changes to my configuration and drive my car around for a couple days to allow the Select to smooth things out.

The target AFRs that it uses comes from a very simple table you maintain in it's management software, WARI:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1345866822

The control over entry and exit of closed loop as well as the thresholds used by Adaptive Mode are configured within the Closed Loop and Adaptive Mode option dialog windows:
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1345867608
Once I'm done with my fine tuning I will drop my Max pressure to 1 to ensure that under quick near WOT operations I'm in open loop. In the meantime I'll keep slowly walking the map as road conditions permit to get it where I think it's perfect.

This is just a picture of my VE fuel map with some color shading to visualize mixture:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1345868061

There ya have it -- tuning for dummies!

I'll cover "How to solve long standing warm start problems" next as my warm start issues are now a thing of the past...

Good info.... Thanks for sharing Shelldude!

I plan to swap out my microtech to this ECU in the future.

Great. Where are you pulling your boost signal for the Adaptronic? Do you have anything else "T"'d off that feed or is a straight shot from the vacuum source?

MAP source is T'd from one of the LIM nipples to the Select and my analog boost gauge.

There's no tap in the UIM on the 4 port otherwise I would've tapped there.

If I understand correctly you are back to letting the stock ECU Control the SSV?

and VDI ... I jumped both leads. If I decide to ever play with them I'll do it from the AccessPORT. It ended up being too much hassle to try and manage them in the Select -- although the potential is certainly there.

Another oddity is the way that the APV is controlled. You have no control over the idle RPM in the Select for RX8 as those outputs were utilized for controlling the APV.

I'm pretty sure the reason why we see such oddities is because the platform serves a broad range of vehicles.

Adjusting Cranking Fuel & Post Crank Enrichments
 

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1346045213

I'd been having warm start issues for some time, well before I got my Adaptronic. By working off the hypothesis that the car was cranking rich on warm startup I adjusted my Cranking Fuel Table leaning out the table in the operating temperature range:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1346047307

With my warm start problem solved I was also noticing that cold startup had an issue now. The 8 would cold start right up but after a couple seconds the idle would drop and it would die.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1346047669

I added 10% diminishing enrichment with a 30 second duration of Long Post Crank. This added enrichment gave my cold starts enough extra fuel to start getting things warm and didn't have any impact on warm starts.

Here's what the base map's short and long post crank values were at:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1346048720

So how do you control the secondary injectors? If the stock SSV is openning at random load/etc based times ( which it does) and you have no control over it......How do you ensure it is open when the injector is fireing?

Can't understand why the SSV is causing you grief.....VDI either...they are simple to activate with the solenoids...>Going to have to have a look at one of these :)...do they have them for REW motors as well??

The Adaptronic will open the SSV based on a specific RPM point or throttle position. The base map (which is for a 6 port) was set for 3900 thru 4000 RPM or 70-75% TPS.... no other options.

The VDI's configuration was simpler in that it would open at 7900 RPM and close at 8000.

If the factory ECU is also only using something trivial like TPS, RPM, or even load, then those values would be consistent whether the Adaptronic is controlling fuel or not.

There were things that Dave saw on the Dyno (I couldn't be there for those sessions) with the SSV and VDI that drove him down that path. The P0661 didn't make it any easier either. The fact remains I was able to pull more power with the factory ECU controlling them then letting the Adaptronic try.

faith&firepower had a similar problem but I don't think he's ever gone into any details as to what exactly it was causing him problems.

Should add that I'm using stock primaries so the same point should be calculated for when to fire the secondaries regardless of which table is being used. It stands to reason that the factory ECU should be calculating a similar VE to make that determination.

Discovered what I posted above (about my primaries) isn't entirely accurate. Will be doing some logging between the Select and my AP to measure injector staging and SSV timing.

Also I have some deadzone tables for the stock blue (480cc) and Injector Dynamics ID1000s (1000cc) I'll be sure to post up in the next day or two.

I'm assuming you're talking about the SSV and VDI, Team.... and I agree. Mazda did a ton of research into air patterns and all that crazy stuff. While I haven't monitored it yet myself, I plan to soon, it appears the factory ECU works off of more than just RPM and TPS to manage them.

If you're referring to deadzone then I'm a little confused as the Select takes full control over your fuel system. Getting your deadzone right helps its Predictive mode manage sudden TPS changes.

Here are the dead time values for Injector Dynamics ID1000s:

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1346547948

Table currently assumes a static fuel pressure of about 63 psi. Andy mentioned the other day that he may expand it in the future taking baro into account.

And the dead-time for the stock 4 port blue secondaries converted from AccessTUNER Race.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1346563254

The attached spreadsheet can be used to convert any existing Race latency sheets.

Adaptive Tuner for Android

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1347150054

I've completed my first development milestone with this app and am comfortable enough with the state of the code to release it.* I'll provide more details (screenshots / etc) later.* I still need to attach the Apache 2.0 license notifications but assume in the meantime that usage and distribution is governed by that license.

Requires a RS232 (DB9) to Bluetooth adapter connected to the Select's second serial port and already paired with your phone.*

Adaptive Tuner displays key gauge data: RPM, MAP, MAT, WAT, and AFR.* It additionally presents the status of the 6 Adaptive Mode Learning State flags using a big visual graphic for each, alleviating the need to wire up LEDs if you use Adaptive Closed Loop for learning.

https://github.com/synman/AdaptiveTuner

I was referring to the SSV only. It opens when the secondary injectors begin to fire, regardless of the conditions that create this event.

Which is why you can't have one ECU controlling the opening and the other one injecting the fuel unless there is some way to control and tie the two instances together

They need to work on this...it can't be left to a maybe..

Not sure why it is a problem though..it is controlled by the solenoid that is super easy to trigger....even the Microtech could do that :)

You can't believe all you read..the SSV is tied to Load...like the secondary injectors turn on...and it is not directly RPM related

Via a handful of loggers I have been able to capture SSV opening at 3750 RPM and the secondary staging begin at 3950-4100 regardless if load.

As I see more scenarios I'll post them based off of real world data. Would appreciate it if you and Team did the sane rather than just crap in the thread.

Adaptive Tuner is now available on Google Play. Supports Android 2.2 onward: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...adaptive.tuner

If you think I am crappling on your thread, I will go away.

Good luck....

All I ask is that you provide data to support your statements. There's absolutely nothing constructive I can do with "It's broke" or "Even a Microtrash can do it".

All published data (plus what little I've been able to capture first hand) indicates that it's based on RPM alone. If you have specific data that indicates otherwise share it.

The only "problem" I've actually seen is that the Adaptronic does not provide feedback to the OEM ECU when it has control of the SSV. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. The parameters it uses are RPM > configured value or TPS > 75%.

I chose to go with the OEM ECU for it to avoid the CEL and let it do what it already does well. I have not observed any scenarios yet where the secondaries kicked in and the SSV wasn't open or the SSV was open for a meaningful amount of time prior to the secondaries kicking in.

Finally got around to producing a 720p video of Adaptive Tuner in action. It's a little dry but you'll get the point.

Have been working on Adaptive Tuner in my spare time and will be pushing out 1.06 for Honeycomb+ devices tonight... I'm on the verge of implementing the ability to update fuel/ignition maps real-time...

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1349317603

Anyone who has followed my android car tablet thread will see I implemented a similar gauge dashboard for Adaptive Tuner.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1349318098

Subbed to this as I am seriously considering an adaptronic ecu for mine!

Bad ass stuff man.

I'd been struggling with throttle overrun from day 1 and finally figured it out this week.

All it took was a little tweaking on my part. 6MTs won't have all the same issues as the Select knows whether they are in gear or not.

First is getting overrun set correctly in the Power Cut tab (as shown):

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1353174461

"Only when in gear" was selected with my base map and that'll never work with an auto. I also lowered the RPM thresholds by a couple hundred RPMs.

And second is ensuring that you give a little bit of wiggle room for trigging closed throttle in the Analogue Calibrations tab (as shown):

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1353174461

All I did here was raise closed throttle from 1% to 2%. I've noticed that (at least on the auto) that Mazda likes to have the TPS at 1% with zero throttle when there's any kind of load. The result was that the Select would never trigger the closed throttle flag because the TPS position must be BELOW the set threshold.

These changes netted me about 5 mpg in stop and go traffic, DOH!

Enjoy!

Also, had a chance to have her on a dyno mid-week for some WOT tuning. Still am not any higher with BNR's "upgrade" at 9PSI than where I was stock GReddy @ 7PSI. 180ish whp is all I can get out of this sucker.

With that said, I did spend some time intently monitoring my SSV and logging injector duty. Remember, I still use the stock ECU for controlling SSV.

Like clockwork, no variations at any point at WOT:

Secondaries kick in at 4,500 RPM
SSV opens at 5200 RPM

And my last update for the moment... How'd I notice the throttle @ 1% thing?

With Adaptive Tuner of course :)

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1353175694

Wow team... Cranky much? No turkey for you today I assume?

That was an update provided by visually monitoring the ssv.

Lighten up grumpleton.

no need to delete anything ... just looking for REAL data. Beyond a basic load check the activation does appear to be static.

There's got to be a reference table missing somewhere. When I look at the unintuitive table exposed in ATR it shows kicking in at 3000 RPM and I know beyond any doubt that is not the case now.

Am also seriously considering going back to the Select for SSV control and simply suppressing the CEL in ATR. I don't think Dave spent as much as time I would've tinkering there.

Perhaps we can agree on that? Happy Holidays by the way. Hope yours was as "filling" as mine :)

Just throwing this out there ...

What i do to monitor SSV is run a long vacuum hose into the cab and put my finger over it to see when there is vacuum on the hose . Varies a LOT depending on load on the 6MT.


Also : the reason you are not making more power at 9psi (assuming same dyno) is probably because you are not seeing 9psi all the way to peak power/rpm . There is an easy solution for that ..........

My boost and MAP gauges tell me I am. Whatcha thinking Brettus?

thinking you should actually try to log boost and see for sure . It's possible you can make less power with more boost but it would take a mechanical issue to make that happen . There shouldn't be any difference from the larger turbo - boost is boost within reason (hi kane :) )

If you can't get more boost at higher rpm - the way to do it is well documented in my thread https://www.rx8club.com/major-horsep...g-bank-172542/

Gawd, Team you're a tough one to keep up with. Didn't realize we were in a competition.

Brett I logged the runs and will review MAP values today and read (possibly reread) your linked thread. Thanks!

If you coming to terms with some twisted notion of me being dumb somehow translates to you not being a prick, then by all means... paint me dumb!

Sub. Any more updates?

Am still maintaining, and adding features to, Adaptive Tuner.

I also still have the Select in my 8 and have her tuned as well, if not better, than I ever did with the AP.

At the risk of being labelled a fanboy, the whole exercise was greatly simplified with a MAP based system. I'd have a really hard time going back to MAF.