DIY: Easy MOD for colder AC
07-19-2010, 12:55 AM
#201
Super Moderator
As Razz pointed out in another thread, Check your FAN MOTORS, if they are not spinning correctly your Cooling system and your Air Cons will suffer...BAD.
Sorry to point this out again, BUT, Mazda did Upgrade the two electric motors in the Series 2's for a REASON, the two Fan Blades are still the same , but the fan shroud is different for the new motors.
You can purchase a new FAN Shroud, Fan, Bolts and Motor SET from a Series 2 for $366.00, or individual parts for a little less, but you have to assemble those.
It would be interesting to see one fitted to a Series 1...to confirm the fit, but I can't see why it would not install.
Sorry to point this out again, BUT, Mazda did Upgrade the two electric motors in the Series 2's for a REASON, the two Fan Blades are still the same , but the fan shroud is different for the new motors.
You can purchase a new FAN Shroud, Fan, Bolts and Motor SET from a Series 2 for $366.00, or individual parts for a little less, but you have to assemble those.
It would be interesting to see one fitted to a Series 1...to confirm the fit, but I can't see why it would not install.
07-19-2010, 03:56 PM
#203
Super Moderator
OD Sent you a Hotmail....
On the fans...The FAN BLADES (not Motors) Date back to 1997, and one of these two were first used in the 626 and some 323's and Premacy or Mazda 5 1999-2001.
The 2006~ Tribute uses these RX-8 Fan Blades (both of them).
Tribute also uses the S1 RX-8 Electric Motors (one of them)...the 626,323 use a different electric motor.
So, to me this proves the ELECTRIC Motors are the KEY to cooling performance, reliability and RPM speed of these same FAN Blades used in ALL series RX-8's.
IMO, the upgrade to the Series 2 Motor, Fan and Shroud SET would be a definite Mod to do..
BTW, YOU MUST Replace the Shroud, as the new Series 2 Electric Motors appear larger and mount with different screws on the Shroud.
BTW2, The Series 2 RX-8 FAN MOTORS are Not Used in ANY other Mazda, they are Model Specific and ALL New.
On the fans...The FAN BLADES (not Motors) Date back to 1997, and one of these two were first used in the 626 and some 323's and Premacy or Mazda 5 1999-2001.
The 2006~ Tribute uses these RX-8 Fan Blades (both of them).
Tribute also uses the S1 RX-8 Electric Motors (one of them)...the 626,323 use a different electric motor.
So, to me this proves the ELECTRIC Motors are the KEY to cooling performance, reliability and RPM speed of these same FAN Blades used in ALL series RX-8's.
IMO, the upgrade to the Series 2 Motor, Fan and Shroud SET would be a definite Mod to do..
BTW, YOU MUST Replace the Shroud, as the new Series 2 Electric Motors appear larger and mount with different screws on the Shroud.
BTW2, The Series 2 RX-8 FAN MOTORS are Not Used in ANY other Mazda, they are Model Specific and ALL New.
Last edited by ASH8; 07-19-2010 at 10:16 PM.
07-19-2010, 04:40 PM
#204
Unless you attached the wrong picture... the motor is the same part number but the pitch of the blades are different. Hence new part number.
And don't forget.. above 90 degrees the AC system starts to gegrade pretty fast even with the mod.
And don't forget.. above 90 degrees the AC system starts to gegrade pretty fast even with the mod.
07-19-2010, 05:51 PM
#205
Super Moderator
Hence new part number
ALL Correct with what I have shown...the Fan Blades are the SAME part Numbers for BOTH Series.
The Numbers Shown are Not Part Numbers, but Description Part Number Code, you then look up actual part number from the codes 5 or 6 number/alpha.
Mazda try to use same codes for ALL their cars as it Does represent "PART" of the PART Number in most but not all cases....in this case of the S2 Motors the Full Part Number is N3R1-15-150.
I can also assure you the part number for the Fan Blades are ALL the same, even though in this instance the sketch shows the blades free of the shroud and diff pitch when compared to S1..it also does not show the fan nuts like the S1 does. I am sure they are there but been overlooked in S2 EPC, It can and has happened before, can show you many between the two Series.
Obviously around 6 years between the graphic work done by Mazda for their EPC's on both series 8's.
07-19-2010, 07:17 PM
#206
Unless you know the specific parameter differences between the fans you're just taking a wild swag. Larger and different only means that. You can't assume it means anything else without the facts to back it up.
07-19-2010, 08:04 PM
#207
Well... I could assume they're bigger... mu ha ha....
Oh, thanks for the clarification on the sketches.
If the pitch of the blade is greater, it will push more air but will take more power, hence the bigger motor.
It's not cost availabity or supplier since all the other Mazda used the same old part.
So that eliminates alot of reasons.
Oh, thanks for the clarification on the sketches.
If the pitch of the blade is greater, it will push more air but will take more power, hence the bigger motor.
It's not cost availabity or supplier since all the other Mazda used the same old part.
So that eliminates alot of reasons.
07-19-2010, 09:55 PM
#208
Super Moderator
Well... I could assume they're bigger... mu ha ha....
Oh, thanks for the clarification on the sketches.
If the pitch of the blade is greater, it will push more air but will take more power, hence the bigger motor.
It's not cost availabity or supplier since all the other Mazda used the same old part.
So that eliminates alot of reasons.
Oh, thanks for the clarification on the sketches.
If the pitch of the blade is greater, it will push more air but will take more power, hence the bigger motor.
It's not cost availabity or supplier since all the other Mazda used the same old part.
So that eliminates alot of reasons.
For the 3rd time it is ONLY the Electric Motors and the Shroud that Has Changed in S2, the FAN Blades are the Same as S1..
The S1 has a Left and Right Motor of Different Part Numbers, in the SERIES 2 Both Electric Motors are the same New S2 specific Part.
S2 N3R1-15-150 Motor (2) Left and Right.
S1 N3H1-15-150 Motor (1) Left
S1 N3H2-15-150 Motor (1) Right which Changed to a RF1S-15-150 (Right) at Production Date 1st June, 2008.
Last edited by ASH8; 07-19-2010 at 10:17 PM.
07-19-2010, 10:13 PM
#209
Super Moderator
Yes, but what specifically was the reason? Was it performance, cost, availability, supplier change etc etc.?
Unless you know the specific parameter differences between the fans you're just taking a wild swag. Larger and different only means that. You can't assume it means anything else without the facts to back it up.
Unless you know the specific parameter differences between the fans you're just taking a wild swag. Larger and different only means that. You can't assume it means anything else without the facts to back it up.
In the 2009 Service Highlight it says...
"Electric cooling fans No.1 and No.2, which operate according to the fan control signal from the PCM, have been updated."
In my 30 years with Mazda they Change a part in a Series 2 Upgrade like all the other 60 plus Non Interchangeable NEW PARTS for a "Technical Reason", virtually ALL updates/upgrades in ANY of their cars are done because of Reliability and Warranty Claims from ALL around the World over the life of the first Series of any Generation Mazda.
Just like the Series 2 2010 NC MX-5/Miata, there are nearly as many changes for the same reason.
The Series 2 RX-8 also has an additional Cooling Fan Speed making it 3 where the S2 has 2.
I don't give a Rats ********* what you think...
Last edited by ASH8; 07-19-2010 at 10:18 PM.
07-20-2010, 08:13 AM
#211
Yet you still can't claim ant knowledge what the actual difference is other than there's a 3rd speed, not what any of the justifiable differences are. For all we know if you don't have that 3rd speed capability you may not see anything to justify the expenditure. Whether you give a rats *** or not about what I think is irrelevant. It's just common sense to understand the specifics before you leap, not personal.
If the fan blades are unchanged then the only way for them to operate differently is the revolution speed. All I'm asking is that if these parts are installed on an S1 as was suggested what will the operational differences be? I can't see a 3rd speed operation being possible without a software and/or hardware change also being done.
.
If the fan blades are unchanged then the only way for them to operate differently is the revolution speed. All I'm asking is that if these parts are installed on an S1 as was suggested what will the operational differences be? I can't see a 3rd speed operation being possible without a software and/or hardware change also being done.
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 07-20-2010 at 08:25 AM.
07-20-2010, 08:51 AM
#212
Are the actual rotational speeds of either the S1 or S2 motors known? Are the electrical connectors for the S1 and S2 motors the same?
If my S1 PCM can only trigger the slower 2 of the 3 S2 motor speeds; but I can wire in a switch and/or timer to trigger the 3rd speed, I'm ok with the extra hassle; but I don't have an S2 shop manual with which to compare the connectors and wiring diagrams.
If my S1 PCM can only trigger the slower 2 of the 3 S2 motor speeds; but I can wire in a switch and/or timer to trigger the 3rd speed, I'm ok with the extra hassle; but I don't have an S2 shop manual with which to compare the connectors and wiring diagrams.
07-20-2010, 04:30 PM
#213
Super Moderator
This REAL issue is not So much the Speed which is controlled by the Additional Relay Now 5 in the S2, the S1 has 4 of the Same Relay's in Fuse Box.
THE ISSUE is there appears to be a "Wearing out" or "Slowing Down" of S1 Fan Motors with Age...There is more than one person who has replaced a motor.
Obviously IF YOUR FAN MOTORS are Slowing Down, they are NOT Cooling.
Lastly...and FINALLY.
Cost Justification..
What would you rather do, Purchase the TWO S1 motors at $159 and $166 Each, total..$325.
Or the S2 N3R1 Motors at $59 Each??, plus the shroud at $92 plus $8 motor Bolts, so
I make that a total of $220 for a complete S2 upgrade.
NOT MUCH MORE THAN JUST ONE S1 MOTOR!
BUT YOU WOULD SAY MAZDA HAVE CHEAPENED THE S2 MOTOR..Wouldn't you?
THE ISSUE is there appears to be a "Wearing out" or "Slowing Down" of S1 Fan Motors with Age...There is more than one person who has replaced a motor.
Obviously IF YOUR FAN MOTORS are Slowing Down, they are NOT Cooling.
Lastly...and FINALLY.
Cost Justification..
What would you rather do, Purchase the TWO S1 motors at $159 and $166 Each, total..$325.
Or the S2 N3R1 Motors at $59 Each??, plus the shroud at $92 plus $8 motor Bolts, so
I make that a total of $220 for a complete S2 upgrade.
NOT MUCH MORE THAN JUST ONE S1 MOTOR!
BUT YOU WOULD SAY MAZDA HAVE CHEAPENED THE S2 MOTOR..Wouldn't you?
Yet you still can't claim ant knowledge what the actual difference is other than there's a 3rd speed, not what any of the justifiable differences are. For all we know if you don't have that 3rd speed capability you may not see anything to justify the expenditure. Whether you give a rats *** or not about what I think is irrelevant. It's just common sense to understand the specifics before you leap, not personal.
If the fan blades are unchanged then the only way for them to operate differently is the revolution speed. All I'm asking is that if these parts are installed on an S1 as was suggested what will the operational differences be? I can't see a 3rd speed operation being possible without a software and/or hardware change also being done.
.
If the fan blades are unchanged then the only way for them to operate differently is the revolution speed. All I'm asking is that if these parts are installed on an S1 as was suggested what will the operational differences be? I can't see a 3rd speed operation being possible without a software and/or hardware change also being done.
.
07-20-2010, 04:42 PM
#214
Super Moderator
Are the actual rotational speeds of either the S1 or S2 motors known? Are the electrical connectors for the S1 and S2 motors the same?
If my S1 PCM can only trigger the slower 2 of the 3 S2 motor speeds; but I can wire in a switch and/or timer to trigger the 3rd speed, I'm ok with the extra hassle; but I don't have an S2 shop manual with which to compare the connectors and wiring diagrams.
If my S1 PCM can only trigger the slower 2 of the 3 S2 motor speeds; but I can wire in a switch and/or timer to trigger the 3rd speed, I'm ok with the extra hassle; but I don't have an S2 shop manual with which to compare the connectors and wiring diagrams.
And thanks, you are correct, I can not confirm IF the Wire Connectors are the same from S2 motor to S1 Wiring Loom...I should take my car apart and find out...or someone else.
07-20-2010, 05:00 PM
#215
Super Moderator
Are the actual rotational speeds of either the S1 or S2 motors known? Are the electrical connectors for the S1 and S2 motors the same?
If my S1 PCM can only trigger the slower 2 of the 3 S2 motor speeds; but I can wire in a switch and/or timer to trigger the 3rd speed, I'm ok with the extra hassle; but I don't have an S2 shop manual with which to compare the connectors and wiring diagrams.
If my S1 PCM can only trigger the slower 2 of the 3 S2 motor speeds; but I can wire in a switch and/or timer to trigger the 3rd speed, I'm ok with the extra hassle; but I don't have an S2 shop manual with which to compare the connectors and wiring diagrams.
07-21-2010, 04:14 PM
#216
Super Moderator
Yet Another ELECTRIC MOTOR Failure...
07-21-2010, 04:26 PM
#217
BTW..Here is the S2 Wiring Diagram for the Relays..it is the best I have. I don't know how you are going to Control or "Fool" your PCM, as you know in S1's the Coolant Temp Controls FAN Speed, from Temp Sensor (Behind Water Pump) to PCM, Relays, Fans., Plus your Air Con Switch and Refrigerant Pressure Also controls Fans.
07-24-2010, 03:06 AM
#218
How do i check the electric motors? I do have some concerns because I have driven my RX8 short distances on days where the ambient temperature is over 95 degrees. I did grandma my RX8 though. I have NEVER (EVER) heard the fans come on for my RX8 after I have turned the engine off. Even yesterday during a local RX8 meet, i heard two RX8s with the fans on after the engine is turned off.
07-24-2010, 03:43 AM
#219
Super Moderator
How do i check the electric motors? I do have some concerns because I have driven my RX8 short distances on days where the ambient temperature is over 95 degrees. I did grandma my RX8 though. I have NEVER (EVER) heard the fans come on for my RX8 after I have turned the engine off. Even yesterday during a local RX8 meet, i heard two RX8s with the fans on after the engine is turned off.
The sensor is at the rear of your Water Pump, I have not tried this, But, if you can get to the sensor wiring Plug and DIS-connect it, it should put your fans in fail safe mode...in other words on High, you should also have to have start car or Ignition ON.?
07-24-2010, 03:57 AM
#220
Super Moderator
From Factory WS Manual..
COOLING SYSTEM CONCERNS - OVERHEATING....POSSIBLE CAUSES..
Improper Coolant Level
Blown Fuses
Coolant Leakage
Excessive A/C system pressure
A/C system operation is improper
Improper water/anti-freeze mixture
Fans Reverse Rotation....HUH??
Cooling Air Passage to Radiator Blockage
Poor Radiator Condition
Thermostat Malfunction
Radiator Hose Damage
Improper or Damaged Radiator Cap
Cooling Fans are Inoperative
Coolant Overflow system Malfunction
Improper Tension of Drive Belts
Drive Belt damage
Eccentric Shaft Bypass Valve Malfunction (stuck closed)
COOLING SYSTEM CONCERNS - OVERHEATING....POSSIBLE CAUSES..
Improper Coolant Level
Blown Fuses
Coolant Leakage
Excessive A/C system pressure
A/C system operation is improper
Improper water/anti-freeze mixture
Fans Reverse Rotation....HUH??
Cooling Air Passage to Radiator Blockage
Poor Radiator Condition
Thermostat Malfunction
Radiator Hose Damage
Improper or Damaged Radiator Cap
Cooling Fans are Inoperative
Coolant Overflow system Malfunction
Improper Tension of Drive Belts
Drive Belt damage
Eccentric Shaft Bypass Valve Malfunction (stuck closed)
07-24-2010, 08:43 AM
#221
The Motors in Both Series RX-8 are Variable speed types...speed is varied by PCM and Relays in Hood Fuse Box.
And thanks, you are correct, I can not confirm IF the Wire Connectors are the same from S2 motor to S1 Wiring Loom...I should take my car apart and find out...or someone else.
And thanks, you are correct, I can not confirm IF the Wire Connectors are the same from S2 motor to S1 Wiring Loom...I should take my car apart and find out...or someone else.
Variable speed is irrelevant to my point. I would still recommend trying to find out what the net differences are before proceeding with any parts swap. You clearly haven't done this recommendation i.e. no direct firsthand knowledge with it just something you read coupled with assumptions, like assuming the S1 fan signal will generate equal or faster fan speeds with the S2 fans.
You will need to know all the intimate details between the two systems to assess whether a parts swap recommendation is worthy. The literature and arguments you've provided so far don't accomplish this. Maybe somebody will go out on a limb to drop the cash on the parts and prove you right, but if you're wrong it's not your money down the drain.
Stop acting like this is personal because it's not. I'm only asking for people to use some common sense before they leap. If right your ego has nothing to fear from a few simple questions
Last edited by TeamRX8; 07-24-2010 at 08:48 AM.
07-24-2010, 06:56 PM
#222
Super Moderator
Variable speed is irrelevant to my point
I have said there is a COST Benefit...Work it out...
I have already ALSO said I can't confirm the wiring PLUG connection...
Both series have 120W motors, the ISSUE is the S1 Motors are slowing and or failing..
Someone will "try" this soon, I will put my ego at 97% correct...
07-24-2010, 07:02 PM
#223
Super Moderator
BTW: What more "intimate" details would you like to Know????
Both Series use 120W Motors..
Both Series use the Exact same fan speed switching Relays and Fuses...
Same Temp Sensor, same Fan Blades..
Both Series use 120W Motors..
Both Series use the Exact same fan speed switching Relays and Fuses...
Same Temp Sensor, same Fan Blades..
Last edited by ASH8; 07-24-2010 at 07:18 PM.
07-25-2010, 04:49 PM
#224
It says in Service Highlights (Series 2) that the default or safe mode for Cooling Fans occurs if and when Coolant Temp Sensor fails, I see no reason why this would not be the same for all RX-8's as they have the same temp sensor.
The sensor is at the rear of your Water Pump, I have not tried this, But, if you can get to the sensor wiring Plug and DIS-connect it, it should put your fans in fail safe mode...in other words on High, you should also have to have start car or Ignition ON.?
The sensor is at the rear of your Water Pump, I have not tried this, But, if you can get to the sensor wiring Plug and DIS-connect it, it should put your fans in fail safe mode...in other words on High, you should also have to have start car or Ignition ON.?
07-25-2010, 05:59 PM
#225
Super Moderator
See attachment for location..
Last edited by ASH8; 07-25-2010 at 06:01 PM.