Royal Purple - ASH RESULTS
06-29-2007, 01:13 PM
#26
Lubricious
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
Yes, with most organics you are going to get some ashing, that is a fact. Yes, some organics do have no ashing but rather burn to release only water and carbon dioxide.
Yes, its NOT going to be a "normal" organic if it survives higher than 1112 degrees Fahrenheit Its probably going to be some metal or semi-metal complex to survive at that high of a temp. Can you seriously name any?
Yes, its NOT going to be a "normal" organic if it survives higher than 1112 degrees Fahrenheit Its probably going to be some metal or semi-metal complex to survive at that high of a temp. Can you seriously name any?
Anyway, zinc is probably a component of your ash and RP will have more ZDDP than any "SM" oil, regardless of synthetic or conventional.
Personally, I was considering Royal Purple at one point until I discovered the ZDDP issue. Considering that our Cats will see significantly more oil than a normal piston engine, the effect of the cat poisoning is magnified.
Last edited by Nubo; 06-29-2007 at 01:17 PM.
06-29-2007, 01:42 PM
#28
Registered
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm requesting Castrol GTX 5w20, not because I could hope to gain anything but a good read from this information [I'm ignorant], but because it would apply to a ton of people on this forum.
06-29-2007, 02:32 PM
#29
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearwater,FL
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay, lets take a step back from the mazda issues and look at other companies like bmw, audi, vw, etc. They're facing billions in damages over sludge issues:
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=151&did=963
http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/ph...WOilSludge.pdf
Guess what they are REQUIRING them to run now? 100% synthetic.
Next you're going to tell me it's not applicable since those are piston cars - not true. Their issues are based on oil change interval and heat issues. Our car has more heat than most. Sludge is an issue in rotary engines too.
As has been said already, burning up the oil in this test just shows how much material can be burned up at 1000 degrees. It doesn't show lubrication properties, or even come close to the amount of heat in the engine to prove anything. In fact, it just shows that royal purple contains more additives that prevent sludge, corrosion, and wear on your engine.
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=151&did=963
http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/ph...WOilSludge.pdf
Guess what they are REQUIRING them to run now? 100% synthetic.
Next you're going to tell me it's not applicable since those are piston cars - not true. Their issues are based on oil change interval and heat issues. Our car has more heat than most. Sludge is an issue in rotary engines too.
As has been said already, burning up the oil in this test just shows how much material can be burned up at 1000 degrees. It doesn't show lubrication properties, or even come close to the amount of heat in the engine to prove anything. In fact, it just shows that royal purple contains more additives that prevent sludge, corrosion, and wear on your engine.
First bite, it will be a long day.
If Mazda says no, and Mazsport says no. Then I'm going to say no.
Last edited by Digital_Damage; 06-29-2007 at 02:34 PM.
06-29-2007, 03:20 PM
#30
[quote=Digital_Damage;1949295]First bite, it will be a long day.
If Mazda says no, and Mazsport says no. Then I'm going to say no.
Or, before you edited yourself:
There is no defense needed.
This data, while interesting in a curious sort of way, tells us nothing about oil as it is used in an internal combustion engine, regardless of type.
BTW - Mazda only says no here and in Oz - it is OK everywhere else.
They also insist on 5w-20 which we also know is a horrendous mistake meant to appease the EPA and meet minimum warranty requirements, not engine longevity, so Mazda's recommendation (Mazda, having been well established, know the least about the Rotary motor, despite being the manufacturer) is of little value to the discussion.
If Mazda says no, and Mazsport says no. Then I'm going to say no.
Or, before you edited yourself:
Originally Posted by Digital_Damage
Good info, lets see how many of the "Synthetic is the only oil to use" people come out and try to defend themselves.
This data, while interesting in a curious sort of way, tells us nothing about oil as it is used in an internal combustion engine, regardless of type.
BTW - Mazda only says no here and in Oz - it is OK everywhere else.
They also insist on 5w-20 which we also know is a horrendous mistake meant to appease the EPA and meet minimum warranty requirements, not engine longevity, so Mazda's recommendation (Mazda, having been well established, know the least about the Rotary motor, despite being the manufacturer) is of little value to the discussion.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 06-30-2007 at 07:48 PM.
06-29-2007, 03:47 PM
#31
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearwater,FL
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=MazdaManiac;1949372]
Bite two,
I'll take the manufactures word and a well established tuners shop word over tom, dick and harry from a message board.
However,
If one of the "leet" synthetic people can show me hard data and a large cross section of cars that have not had any issues and have been running for 70k miles I'll change my tune.
Once again, taking the word from some people on a messageboard is to much risk in my book.
First bite, it will be a long day.
If Mazda says no, and Mazsport says no. Then I'm going to say no.
Or, before you edited yourself:
There is no defense needed.
This data, while interesting in a curious sort of way, tells us nothing about oil as it is used in an internal combustion engine, regardless of type.
BTW - Mazda only says no here and in Oz - it is OK everywhere else.
They also insist on 5w-30 which we also know is a horrendous mistake meant to appease the EPA and meet minimum warranty requirements, not engine longevity, so Mazda's recommendation (Mazda, having been well established, know the least about the Rotary motor, despite being the manufacturer) is of little value to the discussion.
If Mazda says no, and Mazsport says no. Then I'm going to say no.
Or, before you edited yourself:
There is no defense needed.
This data, while interesting in a curious sort of way, tells us nothing about oil as it is used in an internal combustion engine, regardless of type.
BTW - Mazda only says no here and in Oz - it is OK everywhere else.
They also insist on 5w-30 which we also know is a horrendous mistake meant to appease the EPA and meet minimum warranty requirements, not engine longevity, so Mazda's recommendation (Mazda, having been well established, know the least about the Rotary motor, despite being the manufacturer) is of little value to the discussion.
Bite two,
I'll take the manufactures word and a well established tuners shop word over tom, dick and harry from a message board.
However,
If one of the "leet" synthetic people can show me hard data and a large cross section of cars that have not had any issues and have been running for 70k miles I'll change my tune.
Once again, taking the word from some people on a messageboard is to much risk in my book.
06-29-2007, 04:32 PM
#33
06-29-2007, 04:53 PM
#35
[QUOTE=Digital_Damage;1949413]
Bite two,
I'll take the manufactures word and a well established tuners shop word over tom, dick and harry from a message board.
However,
If one of the "leet" synthetic people can show me hard data and a large cross section of cars that have not had any issues and have been running for 70k miles I'll change my tune.
Once again, taking the word from some people on a messageboard is to much risk in my book.
Racing Beat, Tons of other *tuners* said its great to use Royal Purple. Why dont you agree to them?
I think there are quite a few people with over 70K synthetic engines on this board. Im already 31K going 32K in a few more days.
One more thing, Mazda does not recommend the use of aftermarket parts, I dont see any of the *Mazda does not recommend the use of Synthetic oil* listen to that
Now bite me.
Bite two,
I'll take the manufactures word and a well established tuners shop word over tom, dick and harry from a message board.
However,
If one of the "leet" synthetic people can show me hard data and a large cross section of cars that have not had any issues and have been running for 70k miles I'll change my tune.
Once again, taking the word from some people on a messageboard is to much risk in my book.
I think there are quite a few people with over 70K synthetic engines on this board. Im already 31K going 32K in a few more days.
One more thing, Mazda does not recommend the use of aftermarket parts, I dont see any of the *Mazda does not recommend the use of Synthetic oil* listen to that
Now bite me.
Last edited by nycgps; 06-29-2007 at 10:38 PM.
06-29-2007, 05:39 PM
#37
Rotary Newbie
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This test is a test, but... car engines do not burn oil. Period. While the flame temperature is high, the residence times are too short for oils to vaporize and burn (I posted before, to links to basic physics, why liquids do not burn, do a google if still confused). The sludge you obtained is indeed inorganic - it would not stay long in there, gasoline is a good solvent and it will wash it into the catalyst.
What your study showed it that the catalyst is in danger with that oil. Fact known and the reason why their oil is not SM qualified (nothing to do with convenience - is not all that hard to qualify an oil when you are as big as RP).
So now the real question is: if your cat fails out of warranty and Mazda finds out you used non-qualified oil, who shells $500 for a new one? Your guess as good as mine...
Engine is fine with either oil and before people open high mileage engines that ran on certain oils and post pics of the ports/deposits, we really have just theory to debate to death.
Someone claimed earlier that Mazda insists on 5W-30 oils - they don't. In US, they insist on 5W-20. I disagree: 5W-30 for 3 seasons and 10W-40 for summer is just about right for where I live. I like cheap Valvoline Durablend also - nothing against synthetic, I am not convinced its advantages when changed every 3000 miles are worth the high price. And on our cars, running more than 5000 miles on any oil is risky - too much gas gets into it and breaks its viscosity, dino or synthetic no difference.
What your study showed it that the catalyst is in danger with that oil. Fact known and the reason why their oil is not SM qualified (nothing to do with convenience - is not all that hard to qualify an oil when you are as big as RP).
So now the real question is: if your cat fails out of warranty and Mazda finds out you used non-qualified oil, who shells $500 for a new one? Your guess as good as mine...
Engine is fine with either oil and before people open high mileage engines that ran on certain oils and post pics of the ports/deposits, we really have just theory to debate to death.
Someone claimed earlier that Mazda insists on 5W-30 oils - they don't. In US, they insist on 5W-20. I disagree: 5W-30 for 3 seasons and 10W-40 for summer is just about right for where I live. I like cheap Valvoline Durablend also - nothing against synthetic, I am not convinced its advantages when changed every 3000 miles are worth the high price. And on our cars, running more than 5000 miles on any oil is risky - too much gas gets into it and breaks its viscosity, dino or synthetic no difference.
06-29-2007, 05:48 PM
#38
does the rotary burn a little oil since it in injected into the engine?
I have a little over 40K on RP. usually 5w/30. Live in Ga and it gets hot. I use 10W/40 on my summer track days. I do know that engine temps are cooler with RP vs Dino. I do know that RP will free up a couple of hp. I dont know if it is really a lot better for the renasis---but I am convinced it does hurt the engine. It is expensive
olddragger
I have a little over 40K on RP. usually 5w/30. Live in Ga and it gets hot. I use 10W/40 on my summer track days. I do know that engine temps are cooler with RP vs Dino. I do know that RP will free up a couple of hp. I dont know if it is really a lot better for the renasis---but I am convinced it does hurt the engine. It is expensive
olddragger
06-29-2007, 06:26 PM
#39
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearwater,FL
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=nycgps;1949549]
Racing Beat, Tons of other *tuners* said its great to use Racing Beat. Why dont you agree to them?
I think there are quite a few people with over 70K synthetic engines on this board. Im already 31K going 32K in a few more days.
One more thing, Mazda does not recommend the use of aftermarket parts, I dont see any of the *Mazda does not recommend the use of Synthetic oil* listen to that
Now bite me.
Bite three,
What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about Racing Beat.
Racing Beat, Tons of other *tuners* said its great to use Racing Beat. Why dont you agree to them?
I think there are quite a few people with over 70K synthetic engines on this board. Im already 31K going 32K in a few more days.
One more thing, Mazda does not recommend the use of aftermarket parts, I dont see any of the *Mazda does not recommend the use of Synthetic oil* listen to that
Now bite me.
What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about Racing Beat.
06-29-2007, 07:04 PM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great stuff staticlag, thanks for taking that on. I'll second (or however many it makes) that I would like to see a synthetic like Mobil 1 or Amsoil tested. They're both closer to a "virgin" state of synthetic stock. It's my understanding that at about 450° synthetics break down into the esthers they were made from so it would be interesting to see how much ash they leave behind.
So far I've only used Castrol dino juice in mine. Probably all I will use. It works just fine so far.
So far I've only used Castrol dino juice in mine. Probably all I will use. It works just fine so far.
06-29-2007, 11:16 PM
#42
06-30-2007, 08:14 AM
#43
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearwater,FL
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
06-30-2007, 08:51 AM
#44
La Ocho
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bite two,
I'll take the manufactures word and a well established tuners shop word over tom, dick and harry from a message board.
However,
If one of the "leet" synthetic people can show me hard data and a large cross section of cars that have not had any issues and have been running for 70k miles I'll change my tune.
Once again, taking the word from some people on a messageboard is to much risk in my book.
I'll take the manufactures word and a well established tuners shop word over tom, dick and harry from a message board.
However,
If one of the "leet" synthetic people can show me hard data and a large cross section of cars that have not had any issues and have been running for 70k miles I'll change my tune.
Once again, taking the word from some people on a messageboard is to much risk in my book.
06-30-2007, 08:56 AM
#45
(People said Synthetic oil is a waste of money)
I like Organic food because it has been proven that its better
(I like Synthetic Oil because it has been proven that its better)
Thats how I see it. each of their own.
Next ~~~~
When the new renesis engine came out many tuners were saying that the Apex seals couldn't handle FI. Now there are FI kits available for the 8, more kits are likely to follow after Cobb realeases its acces port. I have yet to see any rotary engines fail because of synthetic oil. This debate will go on forever so it really just comes down to what people want in their engines.
06-30-2007, 03:57 PM
#47
The Professor
Thread Starter
Yes, I plan to test more oils, such as castrol and mobile1. Though I will stick with the 10w30 variety so I can compare them to the results I already have.
I will however run a 5w20 sample of whatever brand you guys use the most along with its 10w30 variety so I can compare across viscosities.
Thinking more about the test, I have also realized, that the real temperature is not only 1112 Farenheit, but also the flash temperature of the burning of the oil, that itself should be pretty comparable to the peak flash temperatures experienced during combustion.
.61 grams is about .75-1mL in the crucible, or about the size of a silver dollar (the old kind, not the new ones) if it was placed on a flat surface. Its kind of suprising to see the 7inch flame that comes off of it, it burns for nearly three and a half minutes initially.
I will however run a 5w20 sample of whatever brand you guys use the most along with its 10w30 variety so I can compare across viscosities.
Thinking more about the test, I have also realized, that the real temperature is not only 1112 Farenheit, but also the flash temperature of the burning of the oil, that itself should be pretty comparable to the peak flash temperatures experienced during combustion.
.61 grams is about .75-1mL in the crucible, or about the size of a silver dollar (the old kind, not the new ones) if it was placed on a flat surface. Its kind of suprising to see the 7inch flame that comes off of it, it burns for nearly three and a half minutes initially.
06-30-2007, 04:58 PM
#48
Surf Hard, Drive Hard
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Indialantic, Florida
Posts: 7,840
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes
on
9 Posts
Yes, I plan to test more oils, such as castrol and mobile1. Though I will stick with the 10w30 variety so I can compare them to the results I already have.
I will however run a 5w20 sample of whatever brand you guys use the most along with its 10w30 variety so I can compare across viscosities.
Thinking more about the test, I have also realized, that the real temperature is not only 1112 Farenheit, but also the flash temperature of the burning of the oil, that itself should be pretty comparable to the peak flash temperatures experienced during combustion.
.61 grams is about .75-1mL in the crucible, or about the size of a silver dollar (the old kind, not the new ones) if it was placed on a flat surface. Its kind of suprising to see the 7inch flame that comes off of it, it burns for nearly three and a half minutes initially.
I will however run a 5w20 sample of whatever brand you guys use the most along with its 10w30 variety so I can compare across viscosities.
Thinking more about the test, I have also realized, that the real temperature is not only 1112 Farenheit, but also the flash temperature of the burning of the oil, that itself should be pretty comparable to the peak flash temperatures experienced during combustion.
.61 grams is about .75-1mL in the crucible, or about the size of a silver dollar (the old kind, not the new ones) if it was placed on a flat surface. Its kind of suprising to see the 7inch flame that comes off of it, it burns for nearly three and a half minutes initially.
Castrol GTX still gets my vote on the 5w20 sample.
06-30-2007, 07:40 PM
#49
Senor Carnegrande
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 871
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BTW - Mazda only says no here and in Oz - it is OK everywhere else.
They also insist on 5w-30 which we also know is a horrendous mistake meant to appease the EPA and meet minimum warranty requirements, not engine longevity, so Mazda's recommendation (Mazda, having been well established, know the least about the Rotary motor, despite being the manufacturer) is of little value to the discussion.
They also insist on 5w-30 which we also know is a horrendous mistake meant to appease the EPA and meet minimum warranty requirements, not engine longevity, so Mazda's recommendation (Mazda, having been well established, know the least about the Rotary motor, despite being the manufacturer) is of little value to the discussion.