WTF no turbo

Ok im giving up my search after what ive heard today.After speaking to a reliable source in the rotary tuning arena im done.I was told that FI on the renesis as is just wont do it.The company was finished work on there FI kit but after careful consideration scaped the entire project.They do not believe that the safe boost this engine can take on a daily basis does not justify the money it will cost to do it.Some bolt ons will pop up im sure but will bring with them problems in the future is what i was told.

On a happier note the same company is already working on a engine rework which includes FI for a reasonable price.I was told 6800 to 8000 for a compression drop and a safe 13 to 15 psi single turbo.If any of the rotary gurus out there read this and want to elaborate more please do so.

IKnowNot'ing

Disappointing bu not really surprising if you consider that everybody is trying something 'FI' in his secret lair without sharing their technical challenges and solutions.
Note that I can understand such a behaviour from aftermarket kit companies who actually compete for profit.

Now, as private owners of RX8s, there are a lot of people on this forum with practical experience and/or engine technical knowledge (+ loads of software gurus). These great resources could be united in a joint effort to define and solve all the technical hinders for such a project. It could take the form of (an) on-line workshop(s) on this forum. Just a suggestion.


Compression drop? Told ya!! Alhough after very limited research and some convincing by rotarygod et al., I'm sure Renesis can take low boost without any hardware mods.

shelleys_man_06

The 13B-MSP is a very different engine compared to the 13B-REW and 13B-T. Companies have to start on a clean slate, except for Acosta Racing, who cheated and used a 3-rotor Cosmo engine to make a dyno queen. Bastards . I wish I knew the overall strength of this engine so I can evaluate it more. RG and the rest are right. This car can handle a substantial amount of boost. As I recall, SSR Engineering was planning on a TO4R-based kit (Stage 3?). All I can say is, "you go girl!" I'm still convinced about the forced induction options on this car. I would love to shoehorn a T78 33D, 17 cm^2 turbocharger into my car, but I'm probably going to settle for a T67. This is in the far far far future. Phoenix's Power already has a T67-powered RX-8, but it, like most turbo-powered 8's, is still under development. All I can say is the 13B-MSP is a sophisticated engine; the rotary engine is no longer a novelty item.

WTF no turbo

Shelly what planet you on?Wtf would you use anything bigger then a t4.I think that is overkill even.Your talking maybe 6psi tops on stock engine and that is with a very good tune.I would love to see a godzilla try to spool up running 6psi.Better have a 75 hit to get things moving.Im will start looking for this Phoenix whatever.I have not yet talked to them.

I told J.R the prices for FI thats floating around and he couldnt believe it.7000 bucks for 6psi no thx.I mean i need some boost but damn 7k for 50hp.If anything is done that might work it will be a small SC unit running low boost and making 40 to 60 hp max.Anything else from my research will have serious reliability issues.

IKnowNot'ing

Why do you think a S/C giving 50-60 hp will be more reliable than a T/C equivalent? Or are you expecting the S/C kit price to be lower?

No turbine : all that 'free' energy down the exhaust...

Thanks,

IKN

Kel Rx8

drooling
t-76 dual ball bearing turbo
my boy has a innovative turbo on his rex.
thats another story.
p.s his car is on ebay yellow fd

ok guys i was gonna let you guys know more about a turbo rx8 this month
but i talked to the guys at acosta motorsports last time i hung out with them and
they are working on a turbo kit for the rx8 it just needs to get bolted on
everything is already fabricated.and the motor was already ported when i saw the
car its going into.yes ported.finger licking good.

on another note
i played around with my service dealer of me getting a turbo kit next yr and
they laughed about red flagging me.

WTF no turbo

Not more reliable....cheaper plain and simple.No Exhaust to manifold,1/4 the plumbing among other cost.SC is just easier.Also the couple people that have been working on this say heat has been a big problem.

bigmack000

hmm glad i still got my fd to tune if i get the 8 just do simple mods to it liek headers and make it handle sweet .let the fd get the hp for fun.
joel

IKnowNot'ing

I thought so.

Can you develop a bit. Where was heat a problem : underhood, exh manifold, turbine entry, compressed charge...??

brillo

I'm pretty sure (willing to bet anyways) that Mazda has a FI solution in the works, its prolly not a standard turbo driven off the exhaust due to the emissions needs.

my guess is aftermarket folks will just reverse engineer it once its out, if other forms of FI don't work.

WTF no turbo

I was told when the turbo is on the car doesnt like to run very long without starting to run hot.Im not saying this cant be addressed,but it will just add to the cost of the TC by throwing in a new radiator among other things to help cool.Also with the emissions in the U.S. we will probly never see the greddy kit or any of the newly released Jap kits.

brillo

I'm not sure i understand your comments here, for one, most turbo prior RX turbo apps required a radiator upgrade anyways (only like $400-$600 at most), on top of an intercooler turbo piping etc.....when your already spending $5-$6K, whats another $400?

If the new designs didn't drive off the exhaust gases you could skip the new exhaust manifold which would cost about as much as a radiator upgrade anyways.

again, the standard turbo deisgn is prolly out here as a result of emissions, so I would look to Mazda and the aftermarket for something more along the lines of a SC

maybe you should should change yout sign. to WTF no SC

pret

one thing our engine does have is a high compression ration (10:0:0). a compression drop makes sense in order to have reilable boost AND dependability. look at the mazdaspeed mx-5. mazdaspeed reduced the compression from 10:0:0 to 9:5:0 or something like that. logically it makes sense. i am by far a rotary guru, so i do not know the limitiations of the rotary with this regards, just pointing out the simple fact regarding compression ratios. dependability will suffer if you attempt boost without compression drop. one side effect of reducing the compression is that the max rpm range will be decreased which for our 8's is not good as max power comes at the greater then 6500 rpm range. for example, the rpm range on the mx-5 was reduced to 7500 rpms (from 9k?) and to boost the low end, it might not even have to be that high (13-15). how about a low boost (6-10) range? thoughts?

IKnowNot'ing

[QUOTE=pret]one side effect of reducing the compression is that the max rpm range will be decreased QUOTE]

I'd love to hear you're explanation on this one.

brillo

when I think turbo rotary, I think perfomance of the stock FD's, not 400WHP monsters. Stock FD's had 255HP/215TQ at the crank, and could comfortably do a 5.0 0-60 and hunt porsches when bored.

given the stock engine stats of the renesis, a small amount of boost will get us pretty close to those stats, and that performance. If we lose a little compression and rpm range, who cares. There shouldn't be a problem developing a kit that can get close to FD power reliability. want more than that? Well, then reliability might be an issue.

To be honest, I don't need much more power, I can kill myself pretty dead in the car as it is.
But if you absolutely have to be able to smoke 350Z's and EVO's, then I think the engineers can find a way to get us there.

WTF no turbo

Again you make my point for me.Why spend 5 to 7k for 5 to 6psi when u can spend 3.5k for the same 5 to 6 psi with less heat issues.Hey im a turbo lover christ knows ive enough of em,but im not holding my breath on a turbo kit for a reasonable price.

WTF no turbo

Go back to sleep and let the big boys talk hmm..

shelleys_man_06

You are talking about a kit. I'm talking about custom. Who said a T78 is overkill for a 13B-MSP? Even if it is, I'm sure there's somebdoy as crazy as myself with money who is doing it right now. BTW, Phoenix's Power's webpage

www.phoenixs.co.jp

I hope you can read Japanese . Actually, in reality, something like a T78 is pretty big. Well, for me, I'm trying to design a turbo setup based on a TD-0620G or 25G. With time and money, I'll see what happens.

shelleys_man_06

BTW, their RX-8 is still pretty much under development. It runs on a T67. I'm trying to follow this RX8's progress, but it's pretty slow (I think I have more free time than the guys at Phoenix's Power). I hope to use it as a model for designing my own turbo . The only issue I have is whether a TD-06 on X-boost will compromise the engine's returnless fuel system or not. I don't want to have to drill and set up a bung for a return line (really messy).

WTF no turbo

By all means boost the hell outa it with a t78.Just at least port the engine first.Ported engine 13 to 15 psi.The t78 is way to much for a stock bolt on is what i meant.

shelleys_man_06

Of course. Nearly all of the T78-powered RX-7's I know of needed a bigger port in order to handle all of that extra fun air. Otherwise, it would be like putting too much ice cream through a coffee stirrer (coffee stirrers are hollow y'know ).

cretinx

Well ladies, I really hate to burst some bubbles here but . . . I will.

The 10:1 compression ratio you guys think is so high really isn't that bad. Celica pushes 11.5:1, the Prius runs 13.0:1, on pump gas.

The 10:1 compression should be able to handle 8 psi no problem, unless the engine is very, very weak. I would upgrade the rotor seals (as in the old RX-7s), this would probably give you a chance to lower compression if you MUST.

Lowering compression doesn't mean you can't rev as high. In fact, you would be able to rev higher if you wanted because you wouldn't put as much stress on the engine. Revving high with high compression puts a lot of stress onto an engine, so I'd imagine, revving to 9000 rpm at 10:1 compression means that the stock engine is designed for abuse.

As for the T series turbos, guys, get outta the stone age. We need to upgrade to dual ball bearings. I'm talking GT35R series (or bigger like the GT45R) fast spooling, power creating turbos that'll make tons of power, even at low boost.

Those T78s are slow, sluggish, and lame, though on a car with this much displacement that can rev as high as these can, it might be a cost effective solution.

Give it time for the companies to stop being sissies and start boosting. Realize we're not going to be running 20 lbs of boost, but who needs it with high compression and a proper turbo - we can have quick spool and still make tons of power thanks to the characteristics of the stock engine.

And with a port . . . . whoowhee that'll be fast.

bigmack000

fd realible lol. i think if there will be fi mazda will probly make it first and most likly sc. due to space and emision regs. be sweet to have a boosted 8 tho
joel

shelleys_man_06

Spoken like a true bench engineer.

cretinx

OK, how's this sound.

Jeff Church (Smaay) is pushing 11 psi on his Celica GT-S with stock internals, has been doing so for two months, and hasn't had any problems. That's not bench engineering, that's reality. The Celica guys consistently boost 6-8 psi with no problems. Its all in the tune. If you can retard the ignition timing and get the fuel delivery proper so as to reduce detonation it doesn't matter what psi you run. That's why race gas lets you run higher psi - it reduces detonation.

An engine that's revving to 9000+ rpm and has 10:1 compression is already designed solid, that's a LOT of pressure being exerted in the combustion chambers.

How about the RSX-S? That's got an 11:1 compression ratio, yet it sees boost regularly on stock internals and does fine. The S2000 has an 11:1 compression ratio and sees a lot of boost in superchargers and turbochargers with stock internals. The B18B (Integra LS) and B18C (Integra GS-R) both have a 10:1 compression ratio, and the B18C5 (Integra Type-R) has a 10.6:1. Again, these motors commonly see boost, especially in swaps, with stock internals. My friend who worked at Inline Pro was pushing 425 hp on pump gas in his daily driver B18C without any lowered compression through headgaskets and on stock pistons.

Cliff Notes - Its all in the tune.

Someone needs to figure out how to tune these cars proper, then we can start seeing boost. Has anyone fooled around with the GReddy e-Manage or the APEX'i PowerFC yet?