RENESIS w/ nitrous?
 

I know, I know, the car is not about straight line performance. I get it. I love the RX-8 for exactly what it is, and isn't. That said, how viable would a shot of nitrous be with this engine? I was thinking about this the other day because I don't know if want a supercharger. I don't really think I would need the speed all the time, and with nitrous, I could just get that extra boost if the situation arose.

If it is possible, how much would be too much? 50 shot? 100 shot? Maybe even 150 shot? Inquiring minds want to know...

Nitros will work in any car, just have to tap into the intake somewhere.

I've never heard of anyone having trouble with a 50 shot and I think a 100 shot would also work.

The biggest issue with the RX-8 is that to drive it fast you need to drive it close to the redline. I talked with one of the people who drove it at Laguna Seca and he said he was hitting the fuel cut-off at 10K all the time.

And that is where the problem could arise. Your nitrous system needs to have some protection to prevent from spraying if you hit the fuel cut-off. Nitrous with little to no fuel is a bad combination.

-Mr. Wigggles

nitrous + air without fuel won't do anything... that's why it's "fuel cut" and not "fuel dangerously lean out"...

Shame on you Wakeech! I expected a technical breakdown about nitrous and rotaries...:p

N2O will due fine in the Rx8. As with all rotaries and forced induction, timing and fuel are critical. I am planning a direct port wet shot probably 60-75 shot. N2O is easy to use when installed correctly. You will also need to address timing issues as No engine especially a rotary likes to detonate. You dont want to put a gash in those pretty stainless rotors from a broken apex seal. Colder plugs will help too. Hope that helps and use NX Nitrous.

Kyle Lancaster--Double Agent Salesman

wakeech,

I did say "little to no fuel" (i.e. lean)

So, you're saying that it is O.K. to hit the fuel cut-off with the nitrous going?

-Mr. Wigggles

It is NOT ok to hit the fuel cut off during N2O runs. It will more than likely detonate your engine and blow an apex seal. You are better off getting some type of fuel cut defense or dont run nitrous. I have seen many rotaries die becuase of the fuel cut under boost leaning out the engine, and boom. Same with NOS. Just let off the juice at 7500 if you are worried. If you are still worried get a Jacobs Nitrous Mastermind, then if fuel pressure drops off, so does the NOS. Hope that helps

Kyle Lancaster--El Cajon Mazda Kia

i'd be much obliged to learn how that works, then if that's the case Kyle. :)

... i just can't see it combusting without a source of energy (fuel)...??

i think what he is saying wakeech is that even though you have just hit the cut off there is a moment when a little fuel may have gotten in so the fuel/ nitrous balance is way off.

Kyle,

That is what I've heard from all the ricers in my area:

[FOB accent]Nos at high RPM. Vely big time BOOM!!![/FOB accent]

Of coarse their solution is not to get an advanced nitrous system but just remove the fuel cut circuit. :)

-Mr. Wigggles

why are people so eager to destroy their cars?
giving your car nitrous is like giving it crack....

Do you believe that boosting your rotary through supercharging/turbo is "putting it on crack"? N2O does the same thing. It forces more air and fuel into the chamber(housings in this case), and when done at the correct air/fuel ratio with good timing (-2degrees every 50hp) you can have excellent results.Plus it isnt being used all the time either. People just throw N2O on becuase its cheap add no extra fuel and detonate like crazy and blow out apex seals. Same thing happens if you put a ghetto turbo kit for $637 and you kill your motor on 5 psi of boost. Its all about tuning. I run a 75-150 shot on a stock apex seal ported 12a. I have a 97gph pump for the carb, 114 gph gfor the N20, with MSD boxes and ign timing controll it is actuall quite nice.
Another thing is its Value Priced! I got a NX gemeni Twin that is 75-300Shot with a 15lb bottle, race solenoids, lines, plate, ect, New for $570. Thats less than $2 per hp not including extras, but the 300hp will kill my 12a, If you have a professional set it up for you, you will have great results.

Kyle Lancaster--Double Agent Salesman

Kyle,

You and me are gonna have to hook up man. I'm in SD too and I'd love to find a reliable, honest, quality after-market tuner when I get my 8. Anybody you can recommend?

Thanks,

RM

yes, but the same thing would happen, NOx or not, with regular fuel cut; if the engine leaned out in that fashion as you hit the rev limiter, kids who love to burn out their tyres like morons in first, just gunning it, would seize their engines every time they tried it. obviously, this isn't the case... not to mention that it mayn't be only fuel cut, but ignition cut as well. in that circumstance, i simply can't understand why this would happen.

Kyle?

nitrous is a fuel source, its very unstable, the slightest thing could set it off, sure its safe, but it doesnt need gasoline to explode.
________
FX

so...i read about nitrous and i see 50 shot, 100 shot 150 shot, 200 shots even...wet shots and dry shots.

whut's all this mean? 50 shot is ...50cc's or something? and what's the difference between wet and dry

no, the 50shot, 100shot, etc refer to the approximate horsepower they would be adding, its a very rough approximation, but it gives some idea to the guys who want to install it. A wet system has the NO2 sprayed in after the Throttle Body and with the Fuel Injectors, hence, the wet part of the intake system. A dry system sprays the NO2 before the throttle body. A dry kit is usually cheaper, as it usually only includes one injector (sprayer), while wet kits are usually more elaborate, replacing the entire intake manifold, or adding a seperate block to it.

what the hell would it be combusting with then??? :confused:

if it's indeed all N02/n2o4, or something like that (can someone elaborate on the chemistry??), how could it then combust by itself?? what lower state of energy could it reach if in contact only with gases like O2, CO2, N2, etc etc etc (atmospheric gases, none of which have high potential energy states)... this just doesn't make sense.

ah hah! tnx =)

N2O breaks down at about 300C. Into nitrogen and oxygen. The oxygen greatly increases the rate of combustion, while the Nitrogen actually buffers the explosion a bit. This increase in oxygen levels produces the increase in power. N2O will not burn on it's own, and is rather safe (unless you are breathing it). An added bonus is the cooling effects of the compressed N2O expanding in the intake system. This drops intake temperature quite a bit, and when used in a turbo/sc system, can act as an intercooler, removing the heat of compression.

thanks Crazi,



ah ha. i had the gas wrong. :) oh well, good to know.

this is what i've heard happens, but only at 300C, eh?? wow.



just as i'd thought. thanks then for that. so, as i was saying before then, hitting fuel + ingnition cut shouldn't do much other than waste a good amount of your N2O.

although it's a pretty cool, cheap, easy, and safe way to make some extra ponies, it's really more of a drag racing (and hence street racing) power adder... so, it's not for me. :)

As far as breathing it in....

all the nitrous used in automotive applications is nitrous+ which contains a sulfur additive to both give it a noticable smell <rareified NO2 is oderless>in case of a leak, and to make it impossible to inhale and abuse.

And nobody thinks NO2 is expencive, but they never considered how much it is to fill a bottle. raceing 2 nights a week, I would go though a 10 lb bottle in roughly 2 weeks, at 25 bucks a pop that means in a 4 month period i was spending about $200 on just NO2 alone. then on top of that, there are the bottle warmers, remote bottle openers, teflon hoses, VAFC, upgraged window switch...ect, ect.....it has cost me more than a turbo upgrade <ah, well>

N2O is the chem makeup two parts nitrogen 1 part oxygen, when it burns the molucules separate, the oyxgen makes more power by being mixed with the right amount of fuel. It is similar to how a turbo/supercharger force feeds air in, and air is only about 15% oxygen, whereas N20 is 33% oxygen. The wet shot is meaning you are adding fuel at the N20 nozzle, a DRY shot is when you are relying on the injectors to compensate for the extra oxygen from N20. When you hit the limiter & the fuel cuts out, it causes a lean situation and can detonate, possibly causing serious engine damage. Hope that helps. And yes it does have sulfur in small amounts for automotive uses to deter inhaling, and it is a bitch to refill, that is why I have a 15lb bottle, looks like a scooba tank.

Kyle Lancaster--Double Agent Salesman

Nitrous thread!
 

i dont know if there is a nitrous thread allready, i did a search and couldnt find anything.
i was wondering whats the deal with nitrous and rotarys?? i understand nitrous with piston engines, but it is obviousley going to be different with rotarys.
and does anyone spray or is anyone planning to spray on their renesis??
pro's, cons, whatever!

andrew

I woulded recommend it

but yes you could use nitrous on a rotary just like a pistion engine

however, bye bye warranty

You probably have less of a chance of blowing a rotary than you do with a piston engine since there are fewer moving parts, plus constant one way motion.

Vin Diesel did it in Fast & the Furious on his RX7. For some people that movie is the bible.

yeah, they should change religions then. One thing that can be learned from F&F is that if I want a real stealthy fast car to evade cops and be difficult to identify I should put bright green neons under black civics and drive around at night. Open up a book for christ sake.

What?!?
 

You mean "Fast and Furious" wasn't a documentary?!?:eek:

what about the skyline in 2fast, 2furious---sweeettt

I saw most of those cars at shows in LA

Anyone seen new Zex nitro set up?
 

Check out the new dry spray/air filter combo.Looks to make throwing on the spray a piece of cake.Comments im really thinking about ordering one.
www.zex.com

old news....seriously like last year. It's a nice system though. ZEX is the only N20 I'd use on my daily driver. It's got 3 different saftey catches in case something should fail. Also, if the 8 is running rich like the MSP Protege does then the N20 shot will yield more power. i.e. a 50 shot would produce something like 60-65hp. I built a 1990 Taurus SHO with a zex kit and it was a beast. 255lph fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, accel injectors...my 100 shot put down almost 120hp due to all the extra fuel. Also ZEX is much easier to install due to not having solenoids. Just find a good location for the NMU and run your lines, thats it. very cool, very affordable power.

p.s. 1990 Taurus 3.0L V6, 1/8mile 8.52s @ 78mph.
Not bad for a 13yr old familt barge.

yea the zex kit is a good safe/reliable kit from what i have heard....im more of a NX man myself but i am starting to like the zex stuff
has anyone ever used the venom kit? it comes with a palm pilot! haha it looks like fun but its around 2k :-(

andrew

some venom kits are cheaper. They are all computer controlled, hence the palmpilot, but they are VERY effective. I would only recommend the Venom for someone with serious coin to invest in a HIGH dollar car. When critical tuning is the most improtant thing you're looking for then Venom is the best. However for $450 you can ZEX it up in the morning and be racing that night. As I mentioned earlier it is the safest I've seen/used. As far as their "air amplifier" nozzle. It's nice if you don't wish to cut the intake tubing to tap the nozzle, but I preffered always mounting mine out of sightjust in front of the throttle body. The closer to the TB the better. The amplifier is as far away from the TB as you can get. Not the best location, but better than nothing if you're opposed to cutting the intake plumbing.

Im just looking for some cheap power till FI options arrive.That dry shot in the air filter thing not only looks cool,but makes for an easy install.

Thats true. I prefer the hidden nozzle/wire set-up over ease of installation, but this may be best for you. Also, I'm new to the rotary engine, but I've seen several people use nitrous with great results. For piston engines the only two things needed to insure most power were: greater fuel supply ( N20 doesnt make power, the gas makes the power) and to verify that the nitrous or fuel won't puddle in the intake manifold. That wasa big problem with a wet shot that wasn't direct injection on the SHO. Just check with the rotor experts before taking my advice.

Interesting. Sounds almost too good to be true.

How about (evil grin) FI and this? :-)

i thought this was a nitrous thread......not a fast and furious flames thread. not to sound like a meanie poo, but i have heard wayyyyyyyy too many fast and furious jokes, i knoe the movie was corny, but it seems like ill never hear the end of it. anyone else agree with me?

They have a few of em on display at Universal Studios. The bright pink S2000 has to be one of the most horrific mod-jobs I've ever seen. :)

Can anyone say hijacked thread?

hijack thread

when we get replies like this:

...how can it not get off topic, and onto the topic of the biggest joke about performance enthusiasm ever??

my threads been hijacked :-(
hehe


andrew

its all good....haha but serioulsley, whats evryones thoughts on the old N20??


andrew

True you have a lesser chance of blowing the engine in a rotary with nitrous but the apex seals will likely go.

...the hell're you talking about???

ya see, this is exactly the kind of junk we don't need in a serious thread.

if ever again you have a question like this, post it in the Tech Garage section where we get the more technically serious of the forum checking more frequently.

I trying to figure out how you have less of a chance of the engine blowing even though the apex seals may blow. The logic, if you can call it that, of this one just puzzles me.

Nitrous can actually be used very effectively on a rotary engine. The proble is that too many people just slap on the good lod laughing gas and go for it not even taking into account added fuel or timing retardation (and perhaps user?). The key to a good nitrous setup is the same as it is with anything else. It is all in the tuning. Be realistic in your expectations. Don't expect to throw on a 200 shot and go racing. It has actually been done but there was much work. Never ever use a "dry" shot on a rotary or any other engine for that matter. this is just asking for a lean condition. You need fuel too. Only a "wet" shot is to be used. Now we need to make sure that your fuel system is up to your goals. The RX-8 has a returnless fuel system that uses no fuel pressure regulator. The car's ecu bases pressure through the fuel pump and supplies the necessary amount of fuel per what it determines are it's needs. On the RX-8 I would suggest either waiting for a good aftermarket system to interface with the cars ecu such as the Venom kit or to run a seperate fuel pump, regulator, and lines solely for the nitrous system. Then you need to address amount of nitrous. I'd run a progressive controller from Holley. This allows you to delay the full nitrous onset and let it gradually increse. It can be anywhere from a few milliseconds to a few seconds. This reduces the stress on the seals and makes it more gradual. A sudden hard hit is a huge instant temperature change as well as a huge pressure change in the engine. This is bad for the seals. If you intend to try really big shots then use a multistage system with a progressive controller. I'd rather try to limit the extreme end at about 125 shot or so max with a progressive just to be safe and this only assumes you have accounted for everything and are not just bolting it on. Now that you have nitrous control and fuel out of the way, how are you going to control the timing? There are 2 ways. One is proactive and one is retroactive. The only proactive way is to find a way to modify the ecu signal or replace the ecu entirely. This is the safest but most complex and expensive way to do it. It would also enable you to set up everything else for any mods. the retroactive way would be to install a box that retards timing when it senses that the engine is nearing detonation. I can't think of the company name who makes one right now but many RX-7 turbo people use them. They are about $600 or so but work very well. In the end by the time you are done, a nitrous system isn't any cheaper or easier than forced induction. Anytime you do something properly it never is cheap. Yes you can slap on a small nitrous kit for fairly cheap and maybe get good results but is the risk worth it? I hope this helps and I hope we got back on track.

jeez wakeech get over yourself. I just meant that the rotors themselves probably wouldn't crack like a piston or rod would.

then say that. non-sensical, incomplete and grammatically incorrect sentances do little to tell others what you're trying to say.

in any case, we've finally got a good reply from rotarygod. :) thanks guy.

Nitrous is great if you setup and design the proper system for your vehicle. Mainly all you hear from people these days is Nitrous is BAD cuz it will blow your engine... only idiots shoot way too much for their engine in order for your engine to break. First of all there are TONS of misconceptions dealing with n2o especially when the media and hollywood exploit them further and further from reality.

Nitrous like any forced induction requires tuning, design, and proper care. People that abuse it or do stupid things like heat up their bottle over the designated PSI are the ones that blow their cars up literally. I have yet to encounter anyone that has blown an engine due to nitrous if their setup was correct.