Exhaust header from Knight Sports (up 11ps)
08-03-2004, 09:33 PM
#26
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kit as in headers, or kit as in headers-down exhaust?
Obviously it depends on tons of factors; first of all material, but also weight, HP/torque gains, quality (which you say you have, and i've never heard anything to the contrary). Also, how much equipment you are selling (e.g. the first question). If it is a complete headers down exhaust, the cat would have to pass CARB inspection before I would even look at it. While some do it, I don't like the idea of pulling off a mid pipe and replacing it with the stock cat whenever emissions testing time comes around.
I think the real question will come down to: what's the lowest price you can give me? I know a grand for a set of headers is waaaay too much for my tastes. I think 700 USD is a lot, but if you can justify that it is WORTH 700 USD, then I would reconsider my position.
Basically, those of us that pay attention know that for 650 USD, we can get 20-25 HP with the Canzoomer unit. That's about ~26 USD per HP. The 27,000 I paid for the car got me 230 bhp. That's about 117 dollars per HP, plus the perks of the car itself. If you can keep it at/under $50 USD per HP, it might be worth it, up to about 10 HP (aka 500 USD). After that start working on 26 USD per HP.
But, I'm not in the market for headers right now, so my opinion isn't worth much.
Obviously it depends on tons of factors; first of all material, but also weight, HP/torque gains, quality (which you say you have, and i've never heard anything to the contrary). Also, how much equipment you are selling (e.g. the first question). If it is a complete headers down exhaust, the cat would have to pass CARB inspection before I would even look at it. While some do it, I don't like the idea of pulling off a mid pipe and replacing it with the stock cat whenever emissions testing time comes around.
I think the real question will come down to: what's the lowest price you can give me? I know a grand for a set of headers is waaaay too much for my tastes. I think 700 USD is a lot, but if you can justify that it is WORTH 700 USD, then I would reconsider my position.
Basically, those of us that pay attention know that for 650 USD, we can get 20-25 HP with the Canzoomer unit. That's about ~26 USD per HP. The 27,000 I paid for the car got me 230 bhp. That's about 117 dollars per HP, plus the perks of the car itself. If you can keep it at/under $50 USD per HP, it might be worth it, up to about 10 HP (aka 500 USD). After that start working on 26 USD per HP.
But, I'm not in the market for headers right now, so my opinion isn't worth much.
08-03-2004, 10:04 PM
#27
Bugger, I wish I had read your last sentence first!!
Cool! A guy from Birmingham Alabama - next time I go to Hunstville for work I'll have to catch up if I can.
Firstly, I already sell my own "cat-back" exhaust that is very popular in this country, probably the most popular. I'm willing to sell them to the US, but freight is the issue, unless someone here wants to help me out on that!
Secondly I don't believe there is any point replacing the cat for the heck of it. Until we have determined to flow limitations of the stock one, we will reserve our judgement on if it and the mid-pipe need replacing. If we do make a new mid-pipe, it will be emissions legal, and most probably include the resonator.
Thirdly, I'm not sure on the status of the state of PCM calibrations available now, but I know in Australia, the first batch of cars were down on power. We have since had 2 re-cals. I have done extensive testing on a fuel/ignition controller (and also first hand but separate experience with the CZ unit). I don't believe there is 20 HP in the piggy back with our current tunes. There is some gains to be had improving the AFR's, but at best it would only be 10 I reckon. And that is a genuine 10. I also don't believe there is 20 or 25 in your cars, based on some chat I have had with US guys.
Anyway, thanks for your candid input. In terms of cost, it gives me a good idea for a starting point.
In terms of materials - right now I offer the catback in Mild Steel, and Stainless Steel. So either would be no problem I suppose. I need to check a few things. But I reckon a quality HPC coating would be highly recommended.
In terms of power - We treat it is a proper R&D excercise and test various combinations on a Renesis on the Engine Dyno. We can't do much more than that!
And if your looking for credibility, my partner recently tuned a 20B triple turbo to a world record 201.5 MPH pass. He also put a 6-port Renesis in his Mazda 808 Wagon with a hand-made set of headers and a Motec and ran a 13.0 ET on its first trip to the drags.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Cool! A guy from Birmingham Alabama - next time I go to Hunstville for work I'll have to catch up if I can.
Firstly, I already sell my own "cat-back" exhaust that is very popular in this country, probably the most popular. I'm willing to sell them to the US, but freight is the issue, unless someone here wants to help me out on that!
Secondly I don't believe there is any point replacing the cat for the heck of it. Until we have determined to flow limitations of the stock one, we will reserve our judgement on if it and the mid-pipe need replacing. If we do make a new mid-pipe, it will be emissions legal, and most probably include the resonator.
Thirdly, I'm not sure on the status of the state of PCM calibrations available now, but I know in Australia, the first batch of cars were down on power. We have since had 2 re-cals. I have done extensive testing on a fuel/ignition controller (and also first hand but separate experience with the CZ unit). I don't believe there is 20 HP in the piggy back with our current tunes. There is some gains to be had improving the AFR's, but at best it would only be 10 I reckon. And that is a genuine 10. I also don't believe there is 20 or 25 in your cars, based on some chat I have had with US guys.
Anyway, thanks for your candid input. In terms of cost, it gives me a good idea for a starting point.
In terms of materials - right now I offer the catback in Mild Steel, and Stainless Steel. So either would be no problem I suppose. I need to check a few things. But I reckon a quality HPC coating would be highly recommended.
In terms of power - We treat it is a proper R&D excercise and test various combinations on a Renesis on the Engine Dyno. We can't do much more than that!
And if your looking for credibility, my partner recently tuned a 20B triple turbo to a world record 201.5 MPH pass. He also put a 6-port Renesis in his Mazda 808 Wagon with a hand-made set of headers and a Motec and ran a 13.0 ET on its first trip to the drags.
Cheers,
Hymee.
08-03-2004, 10:26 PM
#28
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Hey, let me know next time your in Huntsville. That my current home till I move out.
As on the headers, as it was stated, 700us would be fine for me if its worth the investment. Each little gain helps.
As on the headers, as it was stated, 700us would be fine for me if its worth the investment. Each little gain helps.
08-04-2004, 05:55 AM
#30
I don't buy Kool-Aid
I see a Turbo -> http://www.knightsports.co.jp/whatsnew-index.html
Last edited by DOMINION; 08-04-2004 at 05:59 AM.
08-04-2004, 10:11 AM
#33
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Not from Knight Sports. They have been working on a centrifugal supercharger for the RX-8. Nakamura-san specifically said that because of emissions concerns among others, they think superchargers are the "future."
08-04-2004, 10:24 AM
#34
Originally Posted by Hymee
PS (hp DIN) to Bhp -> Multiply by 0.9863
So your 11PS is 10.85 HP
So your 11PS is 10.85 HP
(221.1)-(209.7)=(11.4)(.9863)=11.24382 BHP :D
08-04-2004, 10:41 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by Hymee
Bugger, I wish I had read your last sentence first!!
Cool! A guy from Birmingham Alabama - next time I go to Hunstville for work I'll have to catch up if I can.
Firstly, I already sell my own "cat-back" exhaust that is very popular in this country, probably the most popular. I'm willing to sell them to the US, but freight is the issue, unless someone here wants to help me out on that!
Secondly I don't believe there is any point replacing the cat for the heck of it. Until we have determined to flow limitations of the stock one, we will reserve our judgement on if it and the mid-pipe need replacing. If we do make a new mid-pipe, it will be emissions legal, and most probably include the resonator.
Thirdly, I'm not sure on the status of the state of PCM calibrations available now, but I know in Australia, the first batch of cars were down on power. We have since had 2 re-cals. I have done extensive testing on a fuel/ignition controller (and also first hand but separate experience with the CZ unit). I don't believe there is 20 HP in the piggy back with our current tunes. There is some gains to be had improving the AFR's, but at best it would only be 10 I reckon. And that is a genuine 10. I also don't believe there is 20 or 25 in your cars, based on some chat I have had with US guys.
Anyway, thanks for your candid input. In terms of cost, it gives me a good idea for a starting point.
In terms of materials - right now I offer the catback in Mild Steel, and Stainless Steel. So either would be no problem I suppose. I need to check a few things. But I reckon a quality HPC coating would be highly recommended.
In terms of power - We treat it is a proper R&D excercise and test various combinations on a Renesis on the Engine Dyno. We can't do much more than that!
And if your looking for credibility, my partner recently tuned a 20B triple turbo to a world record 201.5 MPH pass. He also put a 6-port Renesis in his Mazda 808 Wagon with a hand-made set of headers and a Motec and ran a 13.0 ET on its first trip to the drags.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Cool! A guy from Birmingham Alabama - next time I go to Hunstville for work I'll have to catch up if I can.
Firstly, I already sell my own "cat-back" exhaust that is very popular in this country, probably the most popular. I'm willing to sell them to the US, but freight is the issue, unless someone here wants to help me out on that!
Secondly I don't believe there is any point replacing the cat for the heck of it. Until we have determined to flow limitations of the stock one, we will reserve our judgement on if it and the mid-pipe need replacing. If we do make a new mid-pipe, it will be emissions legal, and most probably include the resonator.
Thirdly, I'm not sure on the status of the state of PCM calibrations available now, but I know in Australia, the first batch of cars were down on power. We have since had 2 re-cals. I have done extensive testing on a fuel/ignition controller (and also first hand but separate experience with the CZ unit). I don't believe there is 20 HP in the piggy back with our current tunes. There is some gains to be had improving the AFR's, but at best it would only be 10 I reckon. And that is a genuine 10. I also don't believe there is 20 or 25 in your cars, based on some chat I have had with US guys.
Anyway, thanks for your candid input. In terms of cost, it gives me a good idea for a starting point.
In terms of materials - right now I offer the catback in Mild Steel, and Stainless Steel. So either would be no problem I suppose. I need to check a few things. But I reckon a quality HPC coating would be highly recommended.
In terms of power - We treat it is a proper R&D excercise and test various combinations on a Renesis on the Engine Dyno. We can't do much more than that!
And if your looking for credibility, my partner recently tuned a 20B triple turbo to a world record 201.5 MPH pass. He also put a 6-port Renesis in his Mazda 808 Wagon with a hand-made set of headers and a Motec and ran a 13.0 ET on its first trip to the drags.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Interesting your claims on ECU tuning. I say that because there still seemed to be a general concensus that there was some decent power available through that route according to several knowledgable forum members.
I think there is a market for headers that produce as well as or better than the Knight Sports one at a better price. Price will be a big factor...
As far as the cat goes. It is a decent restriction. Period. Mazda even said so, and changed it out on the JDM Mazdaspeed RX-8. No huge gains from changing it out with a JDM unit... 4 or 5ps, but they also promise a sound increase of only 3db.
Have you thought about doing an intake matched together with everything else? With a complete system of upgrades, and a good ECU re-tuning... there might still be a little bit that we haven't seen thus far with a complete matched system...
Last edited by Japan8; 08-07-2004 at 09:02 AM.
08-04-2004, 12:33 PM
#36
Originally Posted by Japan8
Daaaamn Hymee... your partner has some sweet rides.
Interesting your claims on ECU tuning. I say that because there still seemed to be a general concensus that there was some decent power available through that route according to several knowledgable forum members.
I think there is a market for headers that produce as well as or better than the Knight Sports one at a better price. Price will be a big factor...
As far as the cat goes. It is a decent restriction. Period. Mazda even said so, and changed it out on the JDM Mazdaspeed RX-8. No huge gains from changing it out with a JDM unit... 4 or 5ps, but they also promise a sound increase of only 3db.
Have you thought about doing an intake matched together with everything else? With a complete system of upgrades, and a good ECU re-tuning... the RX-8 may raise some sys and go to work with a Ric Shaw on the 8...
Interesting your claims on ECU tuning. I say that because there still seemed to be a general concensus that there was some decent power available through that route according to several knowledgable forum members.
I think there is a market for headers that produce as well as or better than the Knight Sports one at a better price. Price will be a big factor...
As far as the cat goes. It is a decent restriction. Period. Mazda even said so, and changed it out on the JDM Mazdaspeed RX-8. No huge gains from changing it out with a JDM unit... 4 or 5ps, but they also promise a sound increase of only 3db.
Have you thought about doing an intake matched together with everything else? With a complete system of upgrades, and a good ECU re-tuning... the RX-8 may raise some sys and go to work with a Ric Shaw on the 8...
Thanks for the input on the Cat restriction. Since we have the full range of testing equipment available to us we will find out for sure some time.
I have documented our work on the Ric Shaw / TSI fuel & ignition controller in another thread. Have a read for yourself, but we basically got 2 types of power improvments. The first (~10 wheel HP) was in the tune. The second (~9 wheel HP) was in letting the thing really, really get HOT. That was after extensive tuning on the Dyno.
Since that article, we had had a new PCM calibration in Australia, and we have yet to retune the piggyback to suite.
The only work we will be doing on the intake is a blower :D :D :D
And at least with a supercharger you are free to optimize the exhaust / headers
Cheers,
Hymee.
08-06-2004, 03:45 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by Japan8
Not from Knight Sports. They have been working on a centrifugal supercharger for the RX-8. Nakamura-san specifically said that because of emissions concerns among others, they think superchargers are the "future."
08-06-2004, 09:06 PM
#39
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You've got me. To be honest... the Knight Sports S/C is looking like vapoerware to me. NOt much else has been said about it. Blitz... I have no idea what's up with them. I ran across something the other day in a mag, but I don't remember it very well... something like they are still finishing it up. Makes it sound like vaporware too.
Phoenix Power has a turbo setup I read about in a mag last week. I didn't have time to read the article, but the areas i skimmed... like the dyno chart. 355ps. rear wheel of course. The whole setup actually looks similar to SSR's with the big *** turbo in front.
Phoenix Power has a turbo setup I read about in a mag last week. I didn't have time to read the article, but the areas i skimmed... like the dyno chart. 355ps. rear wheel of course. The whole setup actually looks similar to SSR's with the big *** turbo in front.
08-06-2004, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
You've got me. To be honest... the Knight Sports S/C is looking like vapoerware to me. NOt much else has been said about it. Blitz... I have no idea what's up with them. I ran across something the other day in a mag, but I don't remember it very well... something like they are still finishing it up. Makes it sound like vaporware too.
Phoenix Power has a turbo setup I read about in a mag last week. I didn't have time to read the article, but the areas i skimmed... like the dyno chart. 355ps. rear wheel of course. The whole setup actually looks similar to SSR's with the big *** turbo in front.
Phoenix Power has a turbo setup I read about in a mag last week. I didn't have time to read the article, but the areas i skimmed... like the dyno chart. 355ps. rear wheel of course. The whole setup actually looks similar to SSR's with the big *** turbo in front.
08-06-2004, 09:20 PM
#41
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I like the designs from FEED, RE-Amemiya, and Knight Sports. It appears they have long runners, and they have that sexy 3-to-1 design. The header is a great improvement over the stock log-type. But, is $1300 even worth 11 hp? Also, I wonder how the power gain will be amplified if there is a supercharger attached to the other end.
08-07-2004, 01:29 PM
#43
Registered User
11PS is about 10.9HP so they are essentially identical.
The problem is 11PS out of a header?
Sounds like a little dyno magic going on. Take your worst run with the stock header and compare it to your best run with the aftermarket header and voila! 11PS.
Independent testing is in order.
-Mr. Wigggles
The problem is 11PS out of a header?
Sounds like a little dyno magic going on. Take your worst run with the stock header and compare it to your best run with the aftermarket header and voila! 11PS.
Independent testing is in order.
-Mr. Wigggles
08-07-2004, 09:56 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by Hymee
How much would you US guys be prepared to pay for this sort of kit? The stuff I produce is highly regarded for quality and value for money, and my headers are coming closer to reality. The US is obviously a bigger market than here.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Hymee,
If the price is reasonable, and the installation does not require engine or major component removal, and there are real HP gains -- I'll buy, and so will many, many others her in the U.S.
08-08-2004, 03:07 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill
I am not too confident on a long primary pipe as the key to power due to the unique exhaust pulse on rotary engines.
Charles
Charles
Rotaries have always worked best and made the most power with long primaries regardless of porting.
08-08-2004, 03:02 PM
#49
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Besides making power where it counts, I am concerned about fitmet in such a small engine bay. Charles, how would you address that, as well making minimal backpressure? Also, if you did employ longer primaries like rotarygod said, wouldn't you have to eliminate the cat, or possible move it back further? What would happen then?
08-08-2004, 04:33 PM
#50
Charles,
Good luck with what you are doing. Whilst I am no expert on intellectual property laws, the idea of having -ve pressure in the exhaust has been employed since Adam was a boy-racer. So that in itself is not patent-able. I guess the method of doing so is what could be considered novel, which is in part what determines elegibility for a patent.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Good luck with what you are doing. Whilst I am no expert on intellectual property laws, the idea of having -ve pressure in the exhaust has been employed since Adam was a boy-racer. So that in itself is not patent-able. I guess the method of doing so is what could be considered novel, which is in part what determines elegibility for a patent.
Cheers,
Hymee.