Borla Exhaust Manifold (Header) for RX8
 

I just wanted to say thanks for all of your help in researching the feasibility of an aftermarket header for the RX8. I am pleased to inform you that we have begun the development of this exhaust manifold and expect to have it ready to ship by March (hopefully).

If you're interested I'll update you with pics as the development continues.

thanks keep us posted.

Definately want some pics !!

I think the Question here is "How Much$ Can we expect to spend?"

My own question is will you be selling a kit (exhaust & headers b/c im still saving up) together for a little bit cheaper than buying seperate?

I'd love to see what your initial design idea looks like now. Start at the beginning and just update us with progress.

I agree... a header + cat-back package deal would sell more of both than you would get separately. (when it's time) posting dynos of stock, cat-back, header, cat-back + header would likely help your cause a lot.

Just my $0.02

Cost and HP gains, please. And did you conquer the port angle issue that was discussed in the last thread about this?

Sweet. I'll buy one.

I would like to know what Mr. Borla thinks about RacingBeat's statment saying "Headers – approximately 4 HP peak power gain." "Mufflers – muffler & connecting pipe - 2-3 HP"

http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm

It would be nice if the vendor can give us more info and defense their products.

Unfortunately, I don't have hp numbers at this time because we're still developing the part. We only started on Monday so I would imagine that it will be at least a week (if not two) before we have a manifold that can be installed on for testing. Furthermore, we'll probably tweak the design for more performance (that's how it usually goes). Same goes for the costing. I can't give you guys a price until we have a finished piece (with a bill of materials, labor times, setup etc.).

I'll update you guys with pics as the development continues and as soon as I have performance numbers (if there are any) and price I'll post them for you as well.

At this point we have some ideas as to how we can improve flow over the stock manifold but we can't be sure it will work until we try it. All we can do is give it a good effort and hopefully create a header that you guys are happy with.

Thanks for your interest and assistance.

I'm a bit confused. Are you asking me to defend Racing Beat? I really don't know how they get their numbers and being that it seems like they are a competitor of ours I don't feel comfortable getting into it. Just to clarify, I work for Borla Exhaust (www.borla.com). Sorry if I was confusing.

keep up informed.

beers

I think what he is trying to say is that he is wondering if you think there is actually more than a 4 hp potential gain out of headers in general on the RX-8. He was just going by a Racing Beat posted claims.

Oops, my bad. I mean it would be nice if you can defend your borla products. Yeah, I know it will make things complicated if you getting into it. Anyways, thank you for the reply.

Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant. :p plus is there actually more than 2-3hp gain out of exhaust in general on the rx-8.

Sorry for all the confusion.

NOT to rehash the earlier discussion (so if you have something to say, P/M me please), but... this statement is what I meant about RB's comments and professionalism in the "RB update thread."

Thanks for clarifying but I'm not sure that I fully understand. When you say "this statement is what I meant", which statement is that? It seems as though you are referring to my statement as that is what you quoted.

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that RB was unprofessional. I was just simply saying that I don't represent RB and can't comment on how they come up with their figures as I have no idea of the process' they use.

Some in the industry feel that manufacturers should not mention competitors so maybe that's why you are suggesting that RB is unprofessional. However, in their defense, they didn't mention anyone specifically. They certainly didn't mention Borla Exhaust so I don't have a problem with it.

Just because I chose not to bash the competition doesn't neccesarily mean that they are unprofessional for doing so.

Thanks for looking out for us though.

The statement that I quote is what I was refering to.

And I in turn did not insinuate that you did. I did not and still do not believe your comments were made with anyone in mind. Nor have I outright said that RB is unprofessional. I have said that overal they seem to be a good company that makes good products, however, I had an issue with the one statement they posted on their website and questions/concerns regarding their release schedule.

Not at all. More like I am looking out for everyone... RB included. Some may say that their statement walks a thin line of what one can get away with... and if myself and several other people construed their comments in a negative light, then we are not the only ones.

I went through that whole thing on the forum in part because there was an issue and I admit I do enjoy a good debate. :p Unfortunately it got out of hand and some people took it personally. I have no vested interest here... it does nothing for me to hurt or help RB. As I said... the interpretation was there and some denied it... I merely sought to explain it and support why.

I don't want to restart this whole discussion on the forum... I'll P/M you the rest of what I've got to say.

Ok guys, let me clarify.

We currently have a production Renesis engine on our engine dyno. With this engine we have tested the stock exhaust, the Borla exhaust, the Racing Beat prototype exhaust, another aftermarket exhaust, and an "open exhaust".

The open exhaust (no muffler on the end of the connecting pipe) produced an additional 4 HP. The Borla performed well and produced about 3 HP as did the RB prototype system. The other aftermarket system produced -1 HP less than the stock system.

Based upon the results of our testing, we are having difficulty understanding some of the MUCH higher HP claims that are being made about exhaust systems that are available. It is certainly possible that their test procedures are different than ours, we can only fairly comment on the test procedures that we utilize and the results that we obtain.

We have also tried 3-4 different header configurations on this same engine. Based on Jim Mederer's knowledge of header design for rotary racing applications, he designed several units of varying lengths and configurations. Unlike power gains that were found on the earlier 79-85 and 86-92 RX-7 applications, similar gains were not realized on the RX-8 and he has yet to observe more than a 3-4 gain. Since initial development has been confined to a "stock" engine, racing applications have yet to be explored.

We have noticed that changes to the exhaust and intake can result in a severe change in sound quality output. To record these changes, we undertake sound test monitoring using an on-board decibel meter after specific component changes. The challenge that the aftermarket will face is to offer these types of power-producing products without adversely sacrificing the sound quality. Of course, this subject is very subjective and the final decision can only rest with the car owner. If the product is primarily intended for a street application for use on a daily-driven car, we will attempt to produce a product that offers a combination of performance improvement with an “acceptable” sound level output.

More later,

Jim Langer
Racing Beat

Nice post, thanks.

What I'm getting out of all of this is that if I spend my hard earned money on intake, exhausts, etc... it should be mainly for the aesthetics and not HP. Which is fine, as long as your expectations are set before you spend the money.

Thanks for posting the info, Mr. Langer.

That's about what I get from it too. Some of the intake mods made thus far do give some hp gain, but word is they can get to be pretty loud...

However... as we were discussing in another thread , I wonder what potential there is in a more complex intake system. Rather than just bolting on an open filter, looking at something simliar to Greddy or a tuned variable length intake as Rotarygod was describing.

Much of our initial work has been with relatively stock engines; access to engines and the parts to rebuild them has been scarce up to this point. Remember, this engine has been available a short time.

The HP improvements that we have found up to this point will certainly be increased by others over time, that is the nature of this business. Someone will ALWAYS find a way to squeeze a few more HP out of a product, but up to a point.

We know guys are smart and can see through much of the marketing hype. Access to chassis dynos allows the consumer to sort through the hype very quickly and prove or disprove a particular claim.

Our initial research showed little promise for much gain with an open-element intake system.... but further testing has revealed some interesting results. BUT, one big factor is the noise increase that this type of design can produce. We have measured a sound level reading of over 90 db in the cockpit with the windows closed!!!! Yikes, for me it was painfully loud. From our opinion we would only consider producing such a product if the power output could be retained, and the noise suppressed.

We have been working on an air-inlet assembly that would be positioned under the front bumper, we will also attempt to incorporate and revised airbox into the design.

Jim Langer

Jim -

Seeing as the stock ECU really runs the engine quite rich, have you guys experimented with intake/exhaust mods with a better air/fuel ratio? I wonder if some of the lack of results could be attributed to an over-rich mixture - as in the engine can breathe better, but it's just drowning in fuel.

Considering that VERY significant power gains have been made in tuning the mixture, I wonder how that, coupled with a good exhaust/intake, will pan out.

Dale

I'd have to check to see if any dynos are posted, however, Canzoomer has said that a car with the RE intake and Borla used in conjunction with his ECU mod seems (i.e. butt dyno) to be putting out significantly more power than his otherwise stock car (ECU mod only).

As I was reading over the comments by Mr. Langer above, this thought occurred to me as well. Perhaps this is another area to look into...

dcfc3s,

You took the words right out of my mouth. ;)

I don't think that we will see any significant gains with bolt on mods until they ECU is tuned appropriately.

Not to answer for him, but the Racing Beat web site does list an ECU Module as being in development for the RX-8!

Regards,
Gordon

We are aware that the ECU was tuned by Mazda to run rich to protect the catalytic converter. Yes, we have reprogrammed the ECU to run a leaner mixture, and the power results improved at higher RPM.

It seems that Canzoomer has made progress with his development of a ECU piggyback unit, congrats to him for having a product out so quickly. It is apparent that he has extensive knowledge of the technology behind the programming and software.

Although this technology is new to us, we have made gains in understanding the ECU and the software. My personal knowledge of this area is fairly limited so I must consult with Jim Mederer for the answers to these questions. It seems that he can absorb this stuff like a sponge, and he must then present this info to us in a manner we can understand and relate to you guys!!! I will proceed cautiously on how I respond to ECU related questions; I do not wish to misspeak.

Don’t worry, once Jim starts to feed me more information and we have a better understanding of the workings of the ECU, the information floodgates will open!

Jim Langer

Sounds good to me, Jim. Never can have too much info.

Can anyone tell me which aftermarket manufacturers specialize exclusively in exhaust components? And which manufacturers design and build their own mufflers?

Thanks

Borla, MagnaFlow/Carsound, and Flowmaster specialize in manufacturing only exhaust components, however JIC-Magic, Greddy, HKS, and several other companies do make their own mufflers and exhaust piping, but also produce lots of other products.

Why do ask?

Mufflers are obviously the most restrictive element of a cat-back. Manufacturers who don't design and manufacture their own mufflers are limited in their ability to build systems specifically tuned for a particular vehicle because they are buying universal (usually Magnaflow) mufflers. This may explain some of the discrepancies mentioned.

Borla designed a muffler that is exclusively used in our cat-back for the RX8.

I for one am just astounded that we have 2 people from such highly respected companies, Jim Langer and David Borla, who are so willing to come on here and answer questions in such an open and frank manner. kudos to both. i don't frequent other boards so i don't know if this kind of thing happens elsewhere, but i sure as hell glad it happens here. rest assured when i am ready to buy some more power for my car i will be coming to you folks. thanks!

David, this a off the subject, but I have friend interested in a Borla exhaust for a 2004 Dodge Durango with a Hemi. Is anything in the works for this truck? I e-mailed your R & D department, but never heard back. Any info you might have would be appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks for your interest. Yes, the development is done, we'll have the part available soon. Give us a call at 877-GO-BORLA in about 10 days and it should be released by then.

David, check your PM.

Can't find it. You can send me an email if you'd like. davidb@borla.com

Thanks

Sweet. Thanks David!

Jim: Perhaps you can buy a Canzoomer piggyback unit, just to see some of the potential gains the other products might give. A chasis dyno would pretty much give us and exact figure!

Did anything ever come of this?
 

My understanding is that back in late 2003 or early 2004, Borla was looking into developing headers for the RX-8; but, having just checked the Borla web site, I did not see such a product listed (though that could certainly be my own deficient search efforts!!!). Did anything ever come of such development work?

I just search on Borla's site, all I saw was the cat back exhaust. They DONT even have anything for the Shinka (which is the same fitment unlike cars like Altima, I dont understand why they put it into a different group)

They adandoned the header project.

and the reason for abandoning the project??

I'm assuming the lack of a worthwhile power gain combined with cost and potential demand.

dammit i was hoping to match the headers with my borla exhaust.....

you needed to be on this board at that time and see the other RB vs Borla quibbles with fanboys jumping in to fully understand....

heck im a few years late but apparantly they did abandon it im looking for borla headers and no luck :banghead:

so no headers or mid pipe will be available for rx8 by borla? im wanting my full exhaust to be borla, any other brands you might suggest?

Racing beat for tranquillity, or you can head for expansive JDM stuff like RE-Amemiya's one if you got lots of sleeping bucks, be carefull, the Knight Sports header is just trash, got one and it's quite similar to chinese products...

I went ahead and purchased the Racing Beat header. But im a bit skeptical about the mid pipe, with all that jazz going around about check engine lights is there any other options out there that wont throw a CEL? For now im thinking to just keep my borla cat back and install the racing beat header and leaving the stock cat and res..open for advice

I do not live in USA, can't really tell you more about products but i would suggest a sport cat if you do not wanna risk a CEL, the trick is : i know there's a lot of those pipes producted in US, but i don't know where you can get it, and of course i don't know their names.

You should find everything you need on the pages with "research", or some peoples will tell you the best stuff for your use/will. ^^