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Who in the racing community, besides Fat Cat, does a great job with re-valving Bilsteins for custom spring rates?
I have an E46 with Billie PSS fronts and B8 rears, and I want to double the spring rates without spending $3000 on new shocks. To whom should I send them?
^ Yeah, I know those guys. They are the go-to folks for S2000s, in fact. A lot of my students and one of my good friends run their Tracktive-based builds, and they are quite good. They also service Xidas, which are the current hotness in the Super Miata scene. I'll give them a call, but I believe they stopped doing Bilstein.
I bought a friend's E46, and there was some confusion between him and the race shop that built it regarding the suspension. It turns out, the shocks are off-the-shelf B14 PSS fronts and B8 Sport rears with as much spring as they can damp, which is only 350 front and 450 rear. Spec E46 is is 750 / 850, which is closer to my liking of around 650 / 750 on a Bimmer. The car does have adjustable spring perches, pillowballs, and camber plates all around, so all I need are new springs and appropriate shocks. It handles pretty well, but this is a no-compromise track car, and it needs roll stiffness.
I called Bilstein's service department earlier. They actually will re-valve a set of street shocks for custom spring rates with their racing / digressive valves and shim stacks for $450 per set plus any needed repair plus shipping--essentially turning them into a slightly heavier version of their motorsports offerings. This may be easier than I thought, and a worthwhile experiment.
^ Yeah, I know those guys. They are the go-to folks for S2000s, in fact. A lot of my students and one of my good friends run their Tracktive-based builds, and they are quite good. They also service Xidas, which are the current hotness in the Super Miata scene. I'll give them a call, but I believe they stopped doing Bilstein.
I bought a friend's E46, and there was some confusion between him and the race shop that built it regarding the suspension. It turns out, the shocks are off-the-shelf B14 PSS fronts and B8 Sport rears with as much spring as they can damp, which is only 350 front and 450 rear. Spec E46 is is 750 / 850, which is closer to my liking of around 650 / 750 on a Bimmer. The car does have adjustable spring perches, pillowballs, and camber plates all around, so all I need are new springs and appropriate shocks. It handles pretty well, but this is a no-compromise track car, and it needs roll stiffness.
I called Bilstein's service department earlier. They actually will re-valve a set of street shocks for custom spring rates with their racing / digressive valves and shim stacks for $450 per set plus any needed repair plus shipping--essentially turning them into a slightly heavier version of their motorsports offerings. This may be easier than I thought, and a worthwhile experiment.
^ They are in Cali, which is not what's wrong. The $2,000 and 2 months for middle-of-the-pack track shocks is what's wrong. I can get the same thing or better for ~$500 and 1 month.
Go to NASA or SCCA time trials and check out the top cars. None of them are running FCM. Actually, none of the hundreds of cars in my area are running FCM setups anymore at all. Feal, Fortune, and ISC, at the very least, outperform FCM on track for a lot less money. I seem to recall a GRM article [edit: found it] in which FCM outperformed stock Bilstein PSS9 coilovers by just under 0.3 seconds in their testing or something like that. Three tenths per lap adds up fast during a race, but PSS9 coilovers are just slightly over-damped street shocks with much softer springs than the FCM setup had.
I think FCM has stopped pushing motorsports performance, and started pushing sporty comfort or something anyway. I'll take Bilstein's very thick book of motorsports recipes for less money and faster turn-around, thank you.
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 07-02-2019 at 08:50 PM.
^ They are in Cali, which is not what's wrong. The $2,000 and 2 months for middle-of-the-pack track shocks is what's wrong. I can get the same thing or better for ~$500 and 1 month.
Go to NASA or SCCA time trials and check out the top cars. None of them are running FCM. Actually, none of the hundreds of cars in my area are running FCM setups anymore at all. Feal, Fortune, and ISC, at the very least, outperform FCM on track for a lot less money. I seem to recall a GRM article [edit: found it] in which FCM outperformed stock Bilstein PSS9 coilovers by just under 0.3 seconds in their testing or something like that. Three tenths per lap adds up fast during a race, but PSS9 coilovers are just slightly over-damped street shocks with much softer springs than the FCM setup had.
I think FCM has stopped pushing motorsports performance, and started pushing sporty comfort or something anyway. I'll take Bilstein's very thick book of motorsports recipes for less money and faster turn-around, thank you.
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fair enough,
I thought the guy was onto something but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to understand much of what his hours of videos I watched were about,
I’m sure there are plenty of people who can guide you on Bilstein revalves for a BMW on the BMW forum. It’s not often about who can do it, but who knows what to do for a specific application.
Oh Steve, regardless of whatever petty differences in opinion there may be between us here on the forum, my heart is and has always been open to sincerely helping you. If that never happened, it wasn’t because I turned you down ...
is it not sound advice? What about it prevents you from still participating here?
Oh Steve, regardless of whatever petty differences in opinion there may be between us here on the forum, my heart is and has always been open to sincerely helping you. If that never happened, it wasn’t because I turned you down ...
is it not sound advice? What about it prevents you from still participating here?
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Why the assumption I have not done the obvious thing and consulted Bimmer owners as well? I have done that. I am also interested in the experiences of people here and think folks on this forum could benefit from the information, since many 8 owners run Billies of some description.
fair enough,
I thought the guy was onto something but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to understand much of what his hours of videos I watched were about,
I think he did break some ground in the beginning, especially where track performance intersects with street-ability, and then probably benefited from some hype. It did not take long for the rest of the field to catch up, however, especially considering the fact that he kept raising his prices. ($2500 for FCM or $1900 for lighter-weight Ohlins with better track performance and equal street manners?). He also benefited from the Spec Miata scene, where racers could use OTS Billies or his shocks through Mazda Motorsports Development. Then SM switched to Penske, which shut him out of that market. Now I think he is looking for a new market or trying to create one. Most of this is beer-addled memory mixed with speculation, so dose with the appropriate amount of salt.
I paid for a consultation with him several years ago. I almost went for it, but decided to "trust but verify," which sent me to watch time trials for a few months and check out the top third of finishers. None were running FCM. I did finally find some FCM setups on a few slower cars. Seeing that, I ended up choosing Ohlins.
I instruct with several local driving schools and clubs (including BWM CCA--noted since this is a Bimmer thread), and I can't remember the last time I saw an FCM setup. There is too much good stuff out there under $2000 for people to want to go there anymore.
For my purposes, for this car, I have been quoted between $500 and $800, including shipping, to rebuild my shocks to my specs. Not sure what I would get by spending more for similar service, other than street comfort, which I don't care about for this car.
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 07-03-2019 at 10:10 PM.
Reason: Grammers and spellins
Yes, it's a 4 door. No, that doesn't matter much, when it comes to E46s. It weighs about 50 lbs more in stripped trim, but has less drag than a 2 door. The wheel base and track width are the same, as is the front to rear weight ratio. Most of the difference is in the trunk geometry (smaller, but still fits 2 wheels and more). The rear door glass, electric motors, and crash bars account for the weight (glass to be replaced with Lexan, motors to be removed, crash bars welcome to stay). It allows me to haul a set of wheels plus spare parts and tools to distant tracks without having to trailer it.
Here is a photo gallery with over 300 photos of the build process. A whole lot of what they fabricated, and some of what they left in place, is being removed to further reduce weight. I have identified at least another 100 lbs that can be removed or lightened: sound damping, floor pans, door cards, center console, washer fluid reservoir, secondary air pump, air conditioning, flywheel, catalytic converters, other emissions crap, unnecessary seat mounting parts, various unnecessary metal bits, etc.
On its first outing, it was nearly 2 seconds faster than the 8's best ever lap time--even in hotter temps, on lesser tires, and a suspension that is not to my liking. I'm betting i can get a further 4 seconds out of it on the cheap, just by lowering its weight and adjusting the budget suspension.
The 8 is more refined and more of a joy to drive and handles better in the corners (for now), but this thing is indisputably faster and more durable--even if less satisfying.
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 07-03-2019 at 11:03 PM.
You're never going to get top tier performance out of the Bilsteins, but I'd probably reach out to David whitener if I still had a BMW and absolutely had to run them.
I'd recommend something more like 850F / 800R for springs, assuming a tiny rear bar and a reasonably stiff front. Depending on your corner weights.
You're never going to get top tier performance out of the Bilsteins, but I'd probably reach out to David whitener if I still had a BMW and absolutely had to run them.
I'd recommend something more like 850F / 800R for springs, assuming a tiny rear bar and a reasonably stiff front. Depending on your corner weights.
Yeah, I know, but this is a budget car, and I'd like to keep it that way. I pretty much stole it, considering what I paid. The easy button in the Bimmer community is MCS, but I don't care to pay $3500 for shocks for this car, so I'll be satisfied with getting 90% of the way there for less than $1000.
The car came with Hotchkis front and rear bars, and I do know the corner weights. I know what I like and have done the math, so I'm pretty confident in the spring rates.
That's what I get for skimming too fast. I meant to say I have a couple different rear bars and am sure one of them will be to my liking. I am not a fan of stiff rear bars and usually run as little rear bar as possible--preferring more spring instead.
I drive a lot of student's bimmers with a lot of different setups and have a good idea of what I like in this chassis. I just need to fine tune for this car's specific weight distribution.
07-02-2019, 07:54 AM
