Scott Farmer

http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultima...p/topic/18/825

Looks like the RX-8 just bumped up to the top of my "next car" list! Who else here thinks it can become the next "big thing" in BS?

Icemastr

I think the 1st gen Miata 1.8's in DS might be more interesting. Oh well I am not going to be in stock classes anymore since I am moving to SMII since I was tired of my Miata being so slow and decided to add a 1.2L whipple supercharger hehe. The Boxster, S2000, and Z4 all moving up should make things interesting for next season.

PedalFaster

Hoo boy -- both AS and BS are going to be interesting classes to watch next year.

Steve

bureau13

The Z4 is faster than an RX-8 in this format? That surprises me, actually, having ridden in a couple. They specifically mentioned all models, too. Is that just to keep it from getting too confusing as to which model goes where...because I KNOW the 2.8 or whatever it is is significantly slower.

jds

fastmike

Lurking....waiting....thinking...
FM

PedalFaster

Mark Sipe has proven that the Z4 can be competitive with the S2000. Is it fully a match for the S2000? Probably not. Is it any faster than the RX-8? No one really knows, but the feeling was that it could be the car to have in BS if it was left behind. Something's eventually going to be the car to have there anyway, but there was a lot of angst about the possibility of that something costing $45k when the other class contenders are in the $20s.

Keep in mind also that next year the Z4 will likely get a 30 hp power boost.

Steve

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

I could be time for me to return to autocross. I've been away for 15+ yrs.

tpryor

I beat Mark in my RX-8 at the Houston National Tour in April. Both days. I have a LOT of respect for Mark, but if he couldn't beat me in my underprepared car, I would have a hard time believing that it could be competetive with a lesser driver at the wheel.

He also had the worlds best driver, Ian (if you don't believe it, just ask him) and he couldn't beat me either.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I just don't (necessarily) agree that the Z4 is the car to have. If the best driver in a Z4 and the (self appointed) best driver in the world can't beat me with no more preparation than we had, it MUST have been the car.

:D :D :D :D :D

Ike

With those departures I have little doubt the RX-8 will be the car to have in BS. Though with some tweaks to the Z coming up it may not last long, though maybe they'll toss the higher HP Z in AS.


Seems to be BS suddenly became a very boring class for most regions, unless all the sudden a bunch of Zs and RX-8s show up in the Milwaukee region BS is dead here. I saw 1 RX-8 all of last season (ran in Street tire) and 2 Zs all of last season, so we could be looking at having 1-3 cars show up for BS in one of the more active autox regions in the country. At least AS will be fun to watch...

clyde

...or tires perhaps?

PedalFaster

One event does not a good basis for conclusions make. Mark and Ian were running on year-old Hoosier A3S03s with a million runs on them at the Houston Tour. In addition, Ian was very clearly not driving the car the way it liked to be driven.

Also, you're sort of missing my point. Why even risk having a car that costs more than half again what the other BS cars cost dominating the class? Whether the Z4 would actually be the fastest car in BS if it was left there is, to some extent, beside the point.

I think you're the only person in the SCCA who has little doubt about the RX-8 being the car to have in BS. I have lots of doubt, personally.

Steve

Ike

What's going to be better? M Roadster/coupe, maybe but there just aren't many out there. MR2 Turbo, unless Jeff Cashmore or Carter Thompson is driving I doubt it, I've been trying to find one I like for 3 years the right one is so hard to find. I'll tell you though the anouncement makes me want to step up my search for an MR2 turbo, though I'd have a hell of a time keeping it BS legal :p The 350Z, hmmm maybe but I think it's just too heavy and lacks the tossability to do well on a tight autox course.

Something tells me the Z4 and the Boxter aren't going anywhere and if that's the case BS again gets very interesting. But as of now if the changes stand it seems like a ho hum class, not that S2Ks dominating was really all that exciting.

PedalFaster

Huh?

Steve

Ike

They are just proposals at this point, not quite set in stone but certainly on their way.

PedalFaster

They're very much on their way -- it would be highly unusual for the BoD to override the SAC and SEB's recommendation. I imagine that the SAC and SEB wouldn't be making such a big deal of publicly announcing their recommendations if they thought there was a significant chance that the BoD would override them.

You're also forgetting about the 968, which won AS (now BS) at Nationals in 1998 and 1999, and which came second to Thomason's S2000 in 2000. Jason Saini, the reigning BS national champion, thinks it will be the new car to have in BS; Andy McKee, the previous owner of the BS national champion jacket, thinks it will be one of the 968, MR2, or 350Z. Like I said, you may have little doubt that the RX-8 will be the best car in the new BS, but I'd say that's far from certain.

Steve

Ike

Well the Z4 is out of the picture, and anyone that seriously thinks the 350Z will be the car to beat has never driven or seen one on an autox course. However, with the 35th anniversary model coming for the Z and maybe just the right tweaks by Nissan I could very well be eating my words. In it's current form I just don't see any way it's going to be the car to beat in BS. I've already expressed how I feel about the MR2, in the right hands it has the potential to be tops in the class.

Concerning the 968, I always forget about that car and haven't seen enough of them competing to really say much, but isn't there a performance package (M030 of something like that) that is prettymuch a must if you want the best autox car. Then theres the case of some being tips, and then maybe even the coupes being the best choice for autox. That means you have a snowballs chance in hell of finding a good candidate for an autox car, but maybe I'm wrong about the performance package and it really mattering if it's a coupe or cab. It may very well end up winning nats but I don't see a 10 year old Porsche that's hard to find and still pretty damn expensive (especially to maintain) being the new car to have in any class. Lastly let me state again these cars are 10 years old, and even the ones that seem to drive fine are past that break in stage where they are a little faster than new and heading down the path of losing performance with each passing year even if they still seem mechanically sound. Sure things can be done to fix that ,but will it be worth it to anyone, I really doubt it.

As for your original point about me being the only person in the SCCA with little doubt that the RX-8 will be the car to have in BS, I'm probably in the minority. However, I know of one former national champ that will be campaigning one next year and I've talked to others that feel the same way I do, and of course Scott the thread starter. :D Though you're right, it's far from certain and I never meant to portray my opinion as a proclamation, though I can see how you would take it that way.

Maybe I'll end up right about the RX-8 maybe not, but I think we can both agree it will be an interesting to see what happens. But that's only if people come out of the woodwork now that the class bully (S2K) has been sent to detention... err moved :p

But AS is where it will really get interesting, can the STi and Evo make a strong showing this year or will most of stock class guys from last year move to ESP, STU, and SM. How many S2K and C4 guys will jump ship, I think there will be a healthy amount moving to other classes. Will a single non S Boxter show up at Nats next year? I'd be putting my Boxter up for sale as we speak if I was having hopes of being competitive in BS. But I guess there are a lot of cars like that, the WRX would be one if it were not for STX. But the Boxter seems to get the ultimate bum deal in this whole thing if it goes down as proposed.

Imp

Next year it's going to be quite the show I think. Like some say about the 350Z edition.. the right tweaks can shift things a bit.

I also belive it's going to be too early to tell next year what arrives at the top.

But I do know this for certain... it's gonna be fun trying!!! :D

--kC

PedalFaster

Well, two multi-time national champions have seen the car in action and disagree with you. Jason's an Evolution instructor too, so I'm pretty sure he would have driven one. For that reason, while I respect your opinion, I put more weight in theirs.

There isn't consensus on whether the rare M030 package is the right one for autocrossing. The hardtop, manual 968s are inarguably the ones to have, but that's not any different from any other car.

I think we're using different definitions of "car to have". I'm talking about what car is perceived to be necessary to win in Topeka, not about which car will be most popular amongst the masses. I'm not arguing that the 968 will be this car, but Jason Saini is.

As for people not being willing to spend that much on an autocross car, one need only look at E Stock for proof otherwise. The perceived car to have in ES recently was the hardtop, ABS-equipped '93+ MR2. Only problem is, few if any cars were ever built with that combination of options, so for the past few years, the really hardcore guys have been welding solid roofs onto sunroof-equipped MR2s, retrofitting ABS, and generally burning lots of money building the optimal MR2. Take a look at this car for an example of an owner spending probably many times the car's worth on upgrades -- and that's not even a fully-prepped car.

To reiterate, I'm not saying that the 968 (or 350Z, or whatever) will be the car to have in BS. My only points are (a) that although you may be sure in your belief that the RX-8 will be the car to have, it's far from universally accepted (I think we both agree on this one), and (b) people will spend what it takes to develop what they perceive to be the right car for a class.

Someone loses in every classing decision. Only three Boxsters made it to Nationals this year. Screwing a car that unpopular is the closest thing to a victimless crime there is when it comes to classing.

I really hope there is no overdog in the new BS, and that two or more of the RX-8, 968, 350Z, MR2 Turbo, Mazdaspeed Miata, M3, and Z3 turn out to be close enough to allow for diverse national-level fields. That would be cool.

Steve

idriverx8

So Steve,
What car are you driving next year?

Ike

The 944 could make an appearance or two as well, but I would imagine most people will opt for the 968. Since we're both kind of going back and forth with our opinions lets have a little fun and make some predictions.

Topeka next year BS is won by an MR2 Turbo (Jeff Cashmore, are you shopping yet?). Speaking of which do you know what happened with Jeff this year at Nats, I saw he was DSQ on his first day runs. Does Carter Thompson still have his Z, if that's the case then he'll certainly have an upper hand. But down the road once guys get some seat time and get their RX-8s sorted I really think it's the best of the bunch barring Nissan making some nice tweaks to the Z, and I think this coming year you will see a couple RX-8s in the top 5 at nats. If Mazda was smart they would just toss Daddio the keys to an RX-8 and tell him to go get em, but with the the stipulation that he can't compete in any more Rev it up events. It would probably save Mazda money in the long run :D

Tpryor, and KC I'm counting on you guys to prove me right :p

It's going to be a damn fun autox season, I may get back out there every week just so I can spectate for BS and AS, that is if the BS guys come out which I fear they just won't be in attendance.

PedalFaster

I'll tell you when I find out myself. The two cars on my short list are both B Stock cars mentioned in this thread, though.

I'm not even going there. To tell the truth, I think that we're quibbling over tiny differences, and that the total spread between the RX-8, 350Z, and 968 may well be in the order of a few course-dependent tenths, in which case any of the cars could win in Topeka.

He was protested for having strut tops from a '94 MR2 on his '93 MR2, which apparently allows more caster. Could very well have been an honest mistake, but rules are rules, so he was disqualified. ES was a tough class for protests this year.

He was trying to sell it earlier this year, but I don't know if he found a taker. Personally, I think the Track model's the way to go anyway -- just a hair heavier, but it apparently doesn't share the oversensitive ice mode that the other versions have.

I completely agree. I can't wait to see how things pan out. The only thing I'm concerned about is that if one of the camps (RX-8, 350Z, etc.) turns out to be totally wrong, they'll be forced to either ditch their cars mid-season and start over again, or be consigned to the middle of the pack.

Steve

Ike

I agree that we are quibbling over small differences, but it's all in good spirit, at least on my end I hope you're right and it is that close in BS, all classes should be like that, unfortunately it's just not gonna happen with all classes but BS would be a lot of fun if it turned out that way.

I think you're right about the track model, and it's looking like especially the upcoming 35th anniversary model as long as they don't weigh it down with something unexpected. I would imagine he sold it, I don't think it would be a difficult task to move a used 350Z. Will be interesting to see what he turns up with next.

I don't think there are going to be any totally wrong choices in the group, save for maybe the Mazdaspeed which I have not heard positive things about concerning autox, but that's from a small sample.

John V

iTrader: (1)

The problem with all this postulating is that a lot of the guys who are discounting the RX-8 haven't driven one that is anything other than stock. It's also going to take some time to develop the RX-8. Nobody has really done it yet. So the 968s and MR2t's have an advantage right off the bat next year.

Still, it is going to be a fun, fun year. We're putting all of our eggs into the proverbial RX-8 basket, so if the car doesn't end up being "the one to have" ... oh well It'll be fun anyway.

Now, Clyde, we need a front bar. If both front wheels are on the ground, I tend to hit cones.

John V
WDCR-SCCA B Stock #40

PedalFaster

Two really important questions:

1. Why does everyone refer to Clyde as Clyde when his real name's Jeremy?

2. SoloII///M, are you Clyde's super-fast mystery codriver?

Steve

John V

iTrader: (1)

1. His real name is actually Cliff. Where have you been, Steve? :D

2. I'm just there to make sure he bleeds down the tires between runs. :p

Cliff for B Stock champ in 2004!!

John V