Highway8

iTrader: (11)

Looks good.

I want to see a front photo to see what you did with the front grill and the oil cooler openings. I am sure your not running fog lights, are those brake cooler ducts?

sblethen

iTrader: (3)

At tech I was informed from a competitor that I must run the stock grill and I can only add a mesh grill to the existing grills to further protect my radiator and oil coolers. This sucks really because I can't even modify it... which it is really only 1/2 open because the top is solid and just looks like a grill. I am also required to use the stock undertrays since the rules don't specifically allow me to remove them. I was about 1/2 done with my own splitter design that would completly seal off the coolers and radiator. I also re-read the rules and I am not allowed to remove parts for ducting of air including for brakes but I can add holes for ducts... so yes I was going to use the foglight holes which would be a little tricky with the oil cooler but I think it would work. I am now searching to see if those fog lights came standard with this bumper or if it was an option. If it was an option did they leave the hole or fill it with a blank... If it was filled with a blank I need to as well, if they didn't then the hole is mine for the taking!

The rules are the rules and I for one understand why we have them.... even the ones that kinda suck like these ones

Stephen

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

Thats lame, but you should be ok with the stock grill setup. Just make sure the underpanel and the radiator are sealed up real well so you get all the possible air to the radiator.

The Fog lights are an option, you should be able to remove those.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

SCCA Rule #1: If the rulebook doesn't say you can, then you can't.

MagnusRacing

iTrader: (2)

Just one of the reasons I prefer to avoid the SCCA if possible.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

They are called allowances. If it's not listed, then it's not allowed.

If you want to knock the SCCA then you ought to come up with something that doesn't make you look silly and/or petty in the process. No organization is perfect and the SCCA has its issues the same as the others, but you can just as easily knock NHRA, CART, NASCAR, IMSA, F1, etc. etc. if you look hard enough, want to complain, or otherwise just have some personal grudge.

Did you ever consider that maybe you going and racing elsewhere is as good for them as it is for you ... they probably wish I'd get mad and leave sometimes too

kbrewmr2

That's a pretty standard rule in any racing organization

now if you want to pick and choose your mods within reason versus being given a list and tough cookies if you don't like it then there are some places out there that'll work for you

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Actually, not really. For example NASCAR rule book is almost entire a restriction based rule-set. As in it tells you what you can't do. If it doesn't say you can't, then you can. Though it is slowly changing to more of an allowance based rule book.

SCCA's is an allowance based, which gives you the list of items you can change, and if it doesn't say you can, then you can't.

Each method has it's merit, and each promotes development and creativity in different ways. Just gotta understand the ruleset you are working with.

kbrewmr2

should've clarified - that's pretty standard in the level of racing your average Joe/Jane can get into. Is it 100% the case in every type, no, but vastly more common

MagnusRacing

iTrader: (2)

I certainly don't have a personal agendga against the SCCA. I just don't find their rules and enforcement of them to be much fun (at least in my region). I fully understand why the SCCA is the way it is and it's a perfectly reasonable way to operate. However, I'm an amateur racer so it's all about having fun for me and I find I enjoy other less restrictive groups more and find the racing just as close and competitive.

I could also say that I don't really like autocross and brussel sprouts. Does this mean I have anything against autocross and brussel sprouts or the people that enjoy them? Of course not.

sblethen

iTrader: (3)

Here in the North East the only racing option we really have is SCCA so I can't honestly say I have even looked at other rulesets or options. NASA is basically non existant in the NE and the other clubs like BMW, AMC, Porche, etc. don't have the same wheel to wheel racing every other weekend that SCCA has around here. Improved Touring here in the North East also has a lot of depth (Larger fields) with 10-20 cars per class on average. Lot's of well developed cars with great drivers in the area as well. I will be racing against Flatouts S2000 , 2-3 Autotechnic BMW's, an awesome Porsche 968, and then some more folks on a budget like me driving a Supra, M3, Z3, IS300, another S2000 and I am sure I am missing a few others...

Either way I respect and like the stucture of our ruleset along with the larger fields of cars. I also like that our ruleset is basically the same as World Challenge Touring, and the Continental ST class. I would like to do one of those next year possibly and with minimal changes I would be able to cross back and forth between the three classes.

Stephen

MagnusRacing

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like you'll have an interesting and diverse field to race against! I too have heard from a friend from the NE that SCCA is very dominate in that area. I hope you have fun! Love the car build.

sblethen

iTrader: (3)

Quick update via droid at the track! Car is very fun to drive, just need to build confidence in the car. It seems to be running very hot. 259 oil temps. Is that normal at all?

Eric, did you get my email?

Thanks again everyone!
stephen

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Stephen,

259 oil temp is too high. I believe Eric has posted elsewhere on the boards that he overcools both water and oil and then tapes up the grill as needed to get to 180F water and 220F oil. Your class rules may give you problems with improving cooling, but gotta see what options you have for reducing it.

Today's heat up here is certainly not helping matters.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

If your oil temp exceeds 240F with any engine you need to slow down immediately if you care about longevity, and even that is way excessive for a rotary. Going over 250F on a rotary is generally considered a death blow.

sblethen

iTrader: (3)

Thanks guys. Going to keep it as cool as possible, I think this heat isn't helping. I did find it interesting that the stock dash didn't have any warning lights and water temp never got over 3/4. My temp gauge has a bad sender.

My other issue is a concern with the rear end. Someething is wrong and its spinning freely when I get on the power in every right hand turn. Left turns are fine. As you all know watkins glen is not a good place to have issues in right hand turns. I have qualifying today in the AM then we are going to put a stock one in for the race tomorrow. (Mazda motorsports 5.12 is in it now.) Definitely a crappy job in the heat but we gotta do it!

Stephen

EricMeyer

Let's get this rear end thing figured out quick. You prob already know all this but in the interest of time---here we go:

-Are we bottoming out the Left Rear shock possibly? Running out of travel?

-Are the rear springs the same rate?

-What is our cross?

-Condition of tires?

-You need to run a diff cooler on these bad boys because the exhaust superheats the diff carrier and the oil can easily get North of 300F. We had a failure during a hot street race once and she ran at 400F without issue. Cooked the diff fluid but all was fine and diff operated correctly. We then dissassembled, REM treated the scored ring and pin and all was good. This took off the burnt marks. The fluid was so torched that when we took the diff apart it stunk so bad that the neighboring businesses thought it was a gas leak, called the gas company and they closed down our street!!!!! All the time that we were away grabbing lunch!!!! Came back and it looked like a nuclear response team was visiting our shop. When the fireman found out they were laughing their asses off.

-Running an excessively high rear ride height (or excessively low front) can induce rear wheel spin if you were to really hit the bumps but I think your a

-You don't need much of a rear swaybar on these things. Could that be it? Doesn't make sense for rt hand turns only though.

-If it was an aftermarket diff that was improperly adjusted that might be it.

-If your running anything over a rear spring rate of 500 this would be my guess as to your issue. With a DOT R compound you can get away with a 350-400 Rear and 400-500 Front. Many years ago I started playing with springs and when you run a 750F and 600Rear the car is a freakin go kart and any bump you hit sends the car into orbit.

Let us know what you find. And stay out of the draft with those crazy high oil temps.

Eric

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

If you are on the OE differential and it lifts the inside rear tire it will free wheel just like a Quaife diff

If allowed and within your budget get an OS Giken lsd unit, best money you will spend for getting the power down assuming you follow Erics rate advice. Too many people mistakenly try to use
Miata rates etc on these cars. Not needed.

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

Are you allowed to change or modify you oil coolers or lines?

You can also try having your oil coolers coated with a heat dissipation coating. I had my intercooler and custom single cooler done by a company called west coast speciality coatings in concord Ca. They have done a lot of indy car coolers and used a product called struck black http://www.nicindustries.com/heat_dissipation.php

sblethen

iTrader: (3)

So I made a stupid mistake on the tempature guage... never grounded the sender... dumb dumb dumb Anyway that was fixed for Saturday and I had my water teemps. Water ran at 180-195 all weekend and oil ran aroun 230 the rest of the weekend. That issue seems to be resolved BUT we will be watching that closely every weekend.


The BIG problem is the possible rear wheel spin. I had problems hitting the gas and it wasn't just because I was scared It was weird... I could turn left and apply full throttle basically at turn in, but if I tried to turn right I could barely touch the gas at all and something would slip. The car was also very loose on right turns when I applied the throttle but felt great when I turned left. I got a ton of great suggestions as lots of people stopped buy to give us some ideas. We changed the entire suspension including taking the sway bar completely off. Nothing changed. We (I) was convinced it had to do with the rear end. The rear we put in the car during the build is the mazdaspeed 5.12 rear end and it was originally on a car that was hit extrememly hard in the right rear. So long story short I figured it was broken and had the guys drive out with my spare diff from home, then spent 3-4hrs changing the damn thing... shitty job for noobies that will go much faster next time! When changing it we noticed a bunch of axle grease from the inner joint. After some reflection we realized that the rear end we just replaced the mazdaspeed one with was from an automatic which we think is an open diff. We also realized that the axles we had were out of the car that diff came out of and maybe just maybe the automatic ones are different then the manuals... not sure on that yet but they do have different part numbers. (Keep in mind the reason I had these was because we converted the car from an automatic to manual during the build... not really a big deal since we took it down to a bare shell) In the end the diff from the automatic acted exactly like the original one, fine in left turns but horrible in right turns. Some had the suggestion that maybe it was a clutch which it does feel like, but I am not 100% convinced of that since it is honestly only right hand turns. I am sure some of you have been to the glen... I had the wheel spin in Trun 1, the long sweeper after the bus stop, the toe, the heal and the last turn entering the front straight. In each turn you couldn't apply throttle until almost the exit of the turn... I fugure a good 5-6 seconds lost at least! At this point we have no idea but we are going to be ordering some axles for $350 bucks each (That my wife is thrilled about) and see if they are different.


The other issue we had was that I could smell gas and it seemed to use a ton of it! During warm-ups we used 4 gallons of gas. then in the race after 20minutes the car started to sputter. I thought the gas smell was from over filling it but I am not convinced. We are going to take the tank out, inspect it and all the lines then possibly put a stock tank back in it. This one was modified for a quick fill system compliant to continental challenge rules. We possibly could have damamged this in the build process and gas is just something I am not willing to fool around with. I cdecided to end my race early and take some pictures

Overall it was a fantastic weekend for me. I got to drive a car that I put together with my friends and it actually drove! I got to do 130mph and not worry about a speeding ticket in a nice controlled environment and for a few laps I had a great battle with another BMW M3, I wan't at the front but I see all the potential in the world once we figure out our right hand turn issues. Plus being in the Watkins Glen area with family and friends is my dream vacation anyway




Stephen

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

Two differentials and both have the same problem? Sounds like it is not a differential problem.

You might want to come down on the spring rates a little.

You need to run good tires to be fast. Changing tires might completely change the feel and eventual setup of the car so its sometimes a waist of time to use worn out, hard tires. I understand being on a budget, so keep your eyes open for lightly used tires on your forums and classifieds. Racingjunk.com, scca, Nasa, ebay and even craiglists out here in california. I have bought a lot of takeoffs and even some brand new R6's for a fraction of the cost of new.

51/49 is not a cross weight. Crossweight RF+LR/ Total vehicle weight. I am guessing you know that but are tired and brain farted or something. Steps to take when corner balancing the car (more for reader and not for you): Set the car up as ifyour about to take the track, exceptmae 3/4 tank of fuel. Check and adjust tire pressure to proper cold pressure and check adjust the alignement, before and after. Have driver sit in the car or place weights in the adjusted seat. Disconnect sway bar endlinks (one per axle), roll car onto the scale and shake/bounce the car to settle the suspension. Do this after every adjustment. The front control arm bushings tend to bind and give some preload. You might notice some speratic weights, most likly caused by the front control arm bushings. If you can switch the delrin bushings from mazdaspeed or drop engineering they will resolve the problem.

d walker

51 could be a crossweight, expressed as a percentage, which it usually is.
Just out of curiosity, and you may have posted it, but what is your race weight?
650lb frnt seems a tick heavy considering the tires, but without knowing your car weight etc. cannot really comment intelligently.

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

By definition, (RF+LR devided by the Total vehicle weight) Crossweight is Always a fraction/percentage. So yes 51 could be the crossweight percentage, but he said 51/49 so....

kbrewmr2

if you tune your car's suspension on junk tires you'll end up with a junk setup - You wouldn't tune your engine using crappy gas would you?

What tire size do you run? Right now on NASAforums there's someone selling some low heat cycle Continental (ie Hoosier R6s) for stupid cheap out of Rockchester NY. $250/set + shipping for a set of 275 - 18s. That's the cheap way to do it, but really to do it RIGHT you outta pony up for stickers and get used to paying for them if you want to do well

sblethen

iTrader: (3)

Total weight full (with driver) is 2887. Minimum weight is 2850 with driver at the end of the session. So I will be adding a little weight to the passenger footwell (Required location) After I finish the quick fill mounts in the trunk for the gas. These mounts will need to be super strong with lots of bracing to be safe so I may not need to add any weight afterall!

Cross weight was a % sorry for the confusion. (It was actually 50.8% and I did round the number.) And yes it is RF to LR. (I dont have each corner weight with me, for some reason it is not in our log and I cannot find it... arrrggg. We will redue this at a later time.

This was certainly a "teething" weekend which is the reason I used the old tires we had sitting here. This was the first time the car got out of 2nd gear! I know that as we experiment with set-ups it will need to be with the tires we are using specific to our car. I have 2 sets of R6's but didn't want to waist them when I was a solid 5-6 seconds of the pace, besides the fact that with this issue I wasn't going to really be able to get solid data anyway. We may actually run Hankooks since they are known to be very similar to performance in the hoosiers after 1 heat cycle. Hoosiers are still the hot ticket for a single heat cycle but other teams have done some testing and had very similar results with the two tires after the first heat cycle. This is not something we have done so don't take this as a solid fact, but we will try it in 2012. We are also running 17's for the weight savings and the fact that they are $40bucks a tire cheaper! (Thanks for the heads up on the conti tires. similar to R6 but without the DOT stamp we can't use them. )

The second Diff we tried was from a 2004 automatic so it would have be an open style diff. WE changed this primarily so we wouldn't damage the expensive diff in the race. However I kind of expected a different result, not the exact same issue. I didn't get home in time to call mazdaspeed so I have not concluded or resolved the axle shafts theory yet. I think/hope this may be the root cause of the problem but I am not convinced yet. They definetly show that they are two different lengths in the parts catalogue.

I really think that if this was a suspension issue it would do it in both left and right turns not just right turns. With the swaybar disconected on both sides I can't imagine it was lifting a wheel completely off the ground, certainly not in the long sweeper after the bus stop.

One last theory is that gas leak. I wonder if this was dumping on the RR tire? I don't think it was since the exhaust is so close and I would think other issues (fire) may have resulted... which is the reason I retired early, If I smell gas I am not risking it!

Keep the ideas coming, we test in 2 weeks at NHMS here in NH and I will certainly report back what we find/figure out.

Stephen