tomsn16

As others have indicated,we think the merger is NOT good idea.We think BS is a healthy class. With the return of the MR2T and the potential of the 370Z the class should have above average diversity and participation is currently strong compared to CS.....for 2007/2008 total National Events( Tours/Nats/Pros/Finale) participation was BS=338 and CS=250. CS may need some participation help but NOT BS. If the merge happens odds are strong that the RX8 and 350/370Z's will be obsoleted and total participation will take a big hit.
Our letter to the SEB will suggest leaving BS as is and find other ways to improve CS all based on participation.
IF YOU AGREE on leaving BS as it is let the SEB know...NOW. Email seb@scca.com
Jim and Carter T.

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

Jim,

I was previously for this proposal, but the more I've seen these two classes in action at National events the more I realize there's litle parity between the two.

I'll be writing a letter.

StrokerAce

The SEB can't seem to get it that they are the ones who screwed up CS with the Trunk Kit cars (ZOK Solstice and MSR Miata). Now they want to screw up another class.

mwood

ding ding ding....we have a winner.

If they extended the "MS-R" phantom option to all years MX-5, that would help. In conjunction with used Solstice values really starting to come down, participation would start to improve.

StrokerAce

Lets face it. If they would just reclassify the ZOK and MSR to SS they would end up with three (ES,CS,BS) cheap classes that would have healthy participation. Instead we will have ES with a combined BS/CS+boxter that would be dominated by a 35k+ new 350Z or a rare M030 Boxter and managed to kill two popular affordable classes.

mwood

You lost me, there...

CS, if you could put the MS-R parts on all years MX-5's, would eventually rebuild into a well subscribed class. Limiting it to just '07 Sport or SV models will continue to be a bottleneck to Mazda participation, but we are seeing more of them being built...the Solstice is still a great car for the class and, once used example get down to the $10-12k range, we'll see more out there...of course, it could be argued that the expense/hassle of converting either car will continue to hurt numbers and the SEB should just disallow the trunk kits...but, I guess that would require burying the '99 Sport.

No matter if BS merges with CS or not, the RX8's days in the sun I believe will come to an end as soon as someone gets serious with the new 370Z...

What I don't get is why there are both GS and HS classes...

StrokerAce

You lost me there.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why can't the SEB be intelligent and make it so the top dogs are commonly available, instead of uber special models that require people to build cars instead of buying them as they come?

Opening the door to franken cars would be disasterous. There a dozens of other potential requests on other cars. Just start with your mustang for example. How many special requests could you allow for different potential options packages or combinations would there be? Update backdate in any form is a recipe for disaster.

NotAPreppie

To give the non-turbo Mini owners a shot, of course.

BryanH

A combined CS/BS would definitely be interesting... if numbers and diversity thrived. Which I doubt would happen. Everyone would run to the MSR/Z0K. One of the cool things with BS as it is (aside from the 370Z, which I still suspect might go better with AS) is that the RX-8 is inexpensive with a warranty, plentiful, easy/cheap to set up and drive, and able to carry everything in the car without the need for a trailer. The MR2 Turbo can do the same, although you can't take anyone with you.

I don't know though. A combined class would have cars ranging from ~140hp to ~330hp, which is a bit crazy. Far too much course dependency would be introduced. I can see the arguments now. It's a Z course! No way, it's a Miata course!

If two classes must be merged, surely there are better options than this. What about DS/GS?

Who else thinks a merged BS/CS would soon turn into what CS currently is?

Soloseven

The latest SCCA fast track reads like the B/C Stock class merger is a done deal!

Here's a copy of my letter to the Solo Board:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear solo board;

You asked for membership comments on combining B & C stock and moving down current A stock cars to B stock.
I do not believe this is a good move since the current class structure has placed similar cars with similar performance capabilities in the correct classes.
Combining B & C stock puts two front runners in those classes together (Miata & Solstice vs RX-8 & 350z). While on paper the end times look similar these
are two very different types of cars when put on the autocross course.

The Miata & Solstice favor the lower speed tight autocrosses with more constant speed sections.
The skinnier body on the 1999-2005 Miata has made it a competitive stock car for many years.
In addition the Miata’s lower weight has helped it overcome its lower horsepower engine.
The Solstice has the advantages of a good suspension and wider rubber for this weight sports car.

The RX-8 & 350z with better suspensions, wider tires and higher horsepower allow these two cars to have the advantage on higher speed courses where more acceleration is required.

This may not be as apparent at the national level of competition but is brought home in local events. Local events in my area of the country (New England) can be run on very large runways or smaller parking lots. The runway courses favor the RX-8 & 350z, while the smaller and tighter parking lot events favor the Miata & Solstice. At the 2009 nationals this may be more apparent since the nationals will be run on larger more open runways, while the last few years have seen the tighter courses at Hartland Park.

I am against the combining of B & C Stock.

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

+1 When looking over the options, if definitely reads that way.

mwood

There seems to be a large amount of SAC activity lately...proposals all over the place, major consolidations, possible formation of entirely new "idea" classes...they are really stirring the pot.

This whole BS/CS merge idea, if I'm not mistaken (I may be...) actually came about to protect SS, but create space for a "super" SS for high end sports cars...we can call this class "spec SC Loti"...which is an idea that I think most believe serves the interests of a very few. Once the super duper stock idea got bludgeoned in the court of public opinion, the idea of a "tweener" class, which has been talked about for years, gained momentum, since the CS/BS merge was already on the table. Stepping back from the whole thing and trying to be logical, I'd say the best thing to do, right now, is nothing. The CS/BS merge doesn't work. I do like the tweener class idea, but since the powers that be have proclaimed "no additional stock classes", I don't like it at the expense of any of the existing classes which are working. btw, can someone explain the relevance of most all of the prepared and modified classes, please??

Also, it is interesting to see how the SEB and SAC already seem to be setting up expectations of exercising an "out" relative to the 370Z beiing classed in BS.

I think the status quo should be maintained, the 370Z stuck in AS until its performance is truly known, and forget about uber stock, aka spec SC Lotus. If something has to be done, dump a few prepared/mod classes and add "tweener stock"...

tomsn16

I think MWOOD has nailed the big picture.Thanks Mike. Now,let's fire off more letters to the SEB.

chiketkd

iTrader: (5)

I'm sending in my letter now...

treinhar

I sent my letter and got a log number from Brian within an hour.

moxnix

The way I am looking at this.

From what I remember of the solo town hall meeting at nationals.
SEB told SAC no new classes if they are not fully utilizing their current classes (think SS/AS numbers in each class)
Last year participation in open classes at nationals (Stock) in order GS(23), CS(27), FS(27). HS(35), BS (35), DS(36), ES(44), SS(57), AS(58)

My opinion.
FS - Is starting to regain popularity again (but I live in the hotbed of national FS competition so I might be seeing different things that other people do). You even see real FS cars in California something that did not seem to happen all that often before. The car to have is readily available and getting cheaper.
GS - Moving the Mini S out was a good start. We should see some people trying different cars out there next year. At least something is being tried.
CS - 99 Miata's are scared of the Z0K, Z0k's are scared of the MSR. Will it recover if left alone? That is the big question. The MSR is hard to find used and being a one year option no longer available new. I don't see a lot of interest in the class locally except for people still running their NB miata's.
I think something needs to be done with CS to get numbers up. Is combining with BS a good option? If it is a course dependent class created then it might be (Do you know the car to have for AS/SS?) If it becomes CS with the BS cars being well behind then all you have done is put a few more cars in the class locally you will not get many more national cars.

I am glad to see something being tried to bring up numbers in the least subscribed classes.

tomsn16

Some EARLY RETURN BS vs CS info as the 2009 season begins:

A. Participation.......... BS/CS

Dixie Tour.................8 / 7
SD Tour....................14/9
El Toro Pro...............12/6
Houston Tour...........6 /4
DC Pro(reg full)........7 /4
Toledo Pro(reg full)..11/1

Totals......................58/31

Conclusion = BS participation is healthy, CS is weak.

B. Performance

El Toro Pro BS/CS

1. 83.812 MR2T Heitkotter........1. 83.568 Miata Cawthorne
2. 85.102 RX8 Thompson........2. 83.793 Miata DiSimo
3. 85.430 RX8 Isley................3. 85.294 Miata Buetzer

Conclusion = CS is faster class

IMHO El Toro provides the best comparision to date. Not a typical Pro course.More like a very fast tour with a Christmas tree start.Some of the very best drivers in both classes.No weather issues and 12 runs to cover mistakes/cones to reach near 100%. If this pattern continues a BS/CS merger will very likely result in a low participation CS class dominated by a handful of Miatas,one or two MR2T's and maybe a few ZOK Soltice....the RX8 and Z cars will be gone.
This will not be good for SCCA Solo...we want to grow participation, not reduce it.

mwood

The question I have is why so few Solsti participating in CS? It isn't as if the MS-R has proven to be an overdog, by any means. To buy a used Solstice and prep it (Z0K and all) for CS is in the $15-16k range, or just a few thousand more than a used RX8 for BS. I have yet to see a Solstice in either NorCal or SoCal...although rumor has Buetzer being in one, soon.

BryanH

I agree with your analysis on all counts, with one caveat: much as it pains me to admit it, the MR2T isn't as fast as the RX-8 outside of a ProSolo. If the RX-8 is to die in Stock class, so will the Toyota. Not that there's much participation from MR2s as it is. I know of one other car being campaigned this year besides mine. The age/rarity of the car makes it pretty much a non-factor for participation. It's probably a good thing it isn't THE car for a class.

Looking at those participation numbers, I'm glad I'm autocrossing on the west coast. BS is strong here.

fastmike

I think a merge would be fine except for the trunk kit car. That "car" should go up a class. IMO.
OH! The 370Z might be a little fast too.

The ZOK's favorite course is one where the RX8's and NB Miata's have to slow down in 2nd gear then accelerate for a long time but not TOO long of a time.
Say 25-60mph.
99 eats it up in slaloms. RX8 eats it up once the 8 gets revved up.

You could actually have a pretty healthy BS class with the 8, NB, ZOK, 350Z.

I don't worry about PRO's in regards to classing cars.

Flame away!

FM

tomsn16

Fastmike's points are spot on but unfortunately the proposed merger does not deal with the trunk kit cars. I also agree in general with not worrying with Pro Solos for classing purposes but the El Toro Pro was an exception because it was so much like a Nationals course...faster than what we have seen at Topeka in fact...the 8's were on the rev limiter several times.

spike.spiegel

Man, that's embarrassing. I didn't hit the limiter once all weekend and I was on the much shorter 285s. I presume you it on the slalom heading towards the first crossover and on the second crossover? Elsewhere?

Back on topic, I guess my question is on what percentage of courses can the RX8 compete with the trunk kits? If it's close to 50%, then maybe the class will be more like AS and SS, which are very healthy.

tomsn16

1.Carter (Sipes car) was on the 255 A6 and was hitting the limiter as you stated.
2.The CS Miata is now clearly faster than the RX8 and I would guess that will hold true on most any if not all national type courses as we go forward which spells dome for the RX8 and the Z cars and thus a BS/CS class as proposed would result in a class just like the current CS in participation....low and still needing numbers to survive.The large RX8 contingent is of course what makes BS strong in participation(not broken) and the return of the MR2T and the high potential of the 370Z adds very good diversity to an already healthy class...IMHO.

spike.spiegel

OK, well I'm only slightly less embarrassed now, since the 255 is a tiny bit shorter than the 285. I thought Sipe was still running 295s like last year.

Assuming you're right about the CS cars almost always being faster, the merger does seem like a bad idea. El Toro pro is a pretty good data point, I'd say. Would people say that was more of a CS or BS course, compared to most courses? Since the 8 was on the limiter twice, I might be inclined to say it was a BS course, and we still got spanked.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

With as much transition as that course had I would say it was a CS course. And as always, with SD being so narrow that for sure was a CS course.

For me this was a no brainier before, the classes fit together. I still think they fit together, but I have serious doubts about the net result this combination would yield. With the exception of a few superheros in CS, most of those guys don't think they can keep up with BS, and the same holds true for the BS guys. I am staring to think the belief by both sides that they have the "wrong car" would result in a small new CS.

However, with the forums abuzz with many RX-8 drivers moving to STX in 2010, it sounds like numbers will be down next year anyway. I am still incline to support the combination, if it resulted in a new AS rather than a Super Duper Stock - but truthfully this would be to fill my own selfish yearning to run a 996 911 in the new class.