Premix for racing - RX8Club.com



RX-8 Racing Want to discuss autocrossing, road-racing and drag racing the RX-8? Bring it here. This is NOT a kills/street racing forum.

Reply
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread
Old 04-09-2006, 03:49 PM   #1
Registered
Thread Starter
 
Rasputin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 581
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Premix for racing

Re our Racing Renesis project :

https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/renesis-hp-engine-racing-proto-86136/

I'd like to have expert views on the use of premix, especially :
- which oil you recommend
- which ratio
- other aspects

I did a search and found a lot of interesting info (mainly from RG), but no definitive answers about the ratio.

Thanks,

Fabrice
Rasputin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2006, 04:01 PM   #2
Koi no Ousama
iTrader: (25)
 
TeamRX8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,985
Thanks: 0
Thanked 179 Times in 154 Posts
if you're still using the OE MOP and have a cat converter then 1/2 oz oil/gallon fuel = 1:256 max

http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_214.htm

or you could probably do the RB MOP upgrade and not have to hassle with it ...
TeamRX8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2006, 04:49 PM   #3
Registered
Thread Starter
 
Rasputin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 581
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
if you're still using the OE MOP and have a cat converter then 1/2 oz oil/gallon fuel = 1:256 max

http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_214.htm

or you could probably do the RB MOP upgrade and not have to hassle with it ...
Hi TEamRX8,

No, we'll get rid of the OE MOP. And the cat goes too. We'll have an NTK UEGO sensor in the exhaust though.

Fabrice
Rasputin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2006, 05:46 PM   #4
Mod is as Mod does.
iTrader: (1)
 
StealthTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: WAAaaay North....
Posts: 7,093
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
Post Pumpless....

With no pump, you would want at least 150:1, and it must be a good synthetic oil to be effective at those ratios. Widebands work fine with a ratio that lean.

The engine is not a two stroke, there are no bearings in the equation, and no rings to sieze, but you still need all the lubricity.

If you get into the 1% range, you start to affect octane, overall power, and exhaust port deposits.

Stay well away from old school castor extracts and anything rated less effective than ISO-EG-D. Any deposits in the ports and on the rotor face will ruin your day.


S
StealthTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2006, 06:13 PM   #5
Registered
Thread Starter
 
Rasputin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 581
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
^^ Thanks!

F
Rasputin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2006, 05:34 PM   #6
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Misinformation Director - Evolv Chicago
Posts: 3,086
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Anyone have any opinion on using Royal Purple TCWIII oil for premix? I was thinking about picking up some for the track.

http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsa/tcwiiia.html
Red Devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2006, 06:31 PM   #7
Registered
 
hogcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: n.c.
Posts: 203
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Use a name brand outboard (water cooled) 2 cycle oil at a ratio of 1 ounce per gallon.
hogcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2006, 07:16 PM   #8
Mod is as Mod does.
iTrader: (1)
 
StealthTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: WAAaaay North....
Posts: 7,093
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
No, no, no.....

TCWIII is EXACTLY what you DON'T want!

1- The "W" stands for watercraft, all residues must be bio-degradable. The oils used are chosen more for their 'friendliness' than for lubrication, and are much less effective than more purpose-designed oils, hence the requirement to stay richer than 50:1.

2- You need an oil that can lubricate very well at extreme dilutions, burn away completely, leave no residues and contain ZERO metals. You don't need or care about bio-friendliness, since your exhaust will not be below the surface of a lake.

The Japanese came up with the definitive tests for 2-stroke oils, their specs call for actual tests to see how lean the oil can prevent seizing in a Yamaha test engine. Then the exhaust is run thru a chamber, where the opacity is measured.
Any smoke at all is a fail, and most of the good oils go well into the 200:1 range for protection. Look for JASO certification at least an "FC" level. When you find it, it will be a synthetic, since no dino oil can meet the demanding specs.

S
StealthTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2006, 07:42 PM   #9
Registered
 
hogcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: n.c.
Posts: 203
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It works in the race engines that I have built. Maybee you need to contact people who are actually using it in race situations and ask them what they use. While I appreciate a good book or theory on the subject I prefer what is tried and true. I just finished 400 high rpm race miles with the same recommended premix. Call some of the Grand American teams who are running RX8's and ask them what they suggest.

One last time. You CAN use synthetic in the engine if you are not using the oil pump to inject it into the engine. Use premix at 1 ounce per gallon. Synthetic does show a slight power increase. So does diluting high octane fuel with premix. Some people use more than 1 ounce per gallon.

Last edited by hogcar; 06-27-2006 at 07:46 PM.
hogcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2006, 01:20 PM   #10
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Misinformation Director - Evolv Chicago
Posts: 3,086
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well now I'm confused. The Idemitsu Premix is also a synthetic, so what would be wrong with the Royal Purple?

Hogcar, have you specifially used the TCWIII?
Red Devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2006, 01:39 PM   #11
Registered
 
hogcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: n.c.
Posts: 203
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No, I have not. Just run down the Wallyworld and get a name brand 2 stroke oil. I think I used Havoline last time out. I also used 20w/50 Havoline Race oil in the engine.
hogcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2006, 10:19 AM   #12
Mazdarati
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 87
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Has anyone tried the Red Line "Two-Cycle Smokeless Oil"
http://www.redlineoil.com/products_m...72&subcatID=16
avakiannl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2006, 05:42 PM   #13
Rally Car Racer
 
The Mighty Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 277
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogcar
One last time. You CAN use synthetic in the engine if you are not using the oil pump to inject it into the engine. Use premix at 1 ounce per gallon. Synthetic does show a slight power increase. So does diluting high octane fuel with premix. Some people use more than 1 ounce per gallon.
In other words, you're saying it's ok to use synthetic oil in the engine but ONLY if you disable the injection pump and premix with 2-cycle?

Ok.. and what if you ARE using the oil pump to inject synthetic oil into the engine? Would there be any added advantage to premix 2-cycle in addition? If I read you right - you're implying that injecting synthetic is bad in someway. Can you clarify?
The Mighty Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2006, 07:32 PM   #14
Registered
 
hogcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: n.c.
Posts: 203
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I use synthetic in the engine if the oil injectors are disabled, such as a weber carbed engine. In the renesis I have not altered the oil injection so I use Dino oil in the engine AND add premix for high stress events ie racing. Using synthetic in the renesis can/will cause problems with your cat. The flash point of the synthetic is higher than dino or two-stroke oil.
hogcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2006, 07:43 PM   #15
RX8Club.com Sponsor
iTrader: (12)
 
Mazmart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,769
Thanked 38 Times in 18 Posts
I like Yamalube R for all of my rotaries and Professor Engman uses a ratio of 125 to 1 in his racing versions. I don't see the need for more than half ounce per gallon when supplementing the existing system.
Paul.
Mazmart is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mazmart For This Useful Post:
hufflepuff (07-28-2017)
Old 06-29-2006, 10:12 PM   #16
Registered
 
hogcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: n.c.
Posts: 203
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I dont either if you are using "street fuel" Rick uses 125 to one, hold the phone that is 1 ounce per gallon. (128/1)
hogcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 10:44 AM   #17
Rally Car Racer
 
The Mighty Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 277
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogcar
Using synthetic in the renesis can/will cause problems with your cat. The flash point of the synthetic is higher than dino or two-stroke oil.
In other words, the oil won't ignite properly or completely burn and will end up flowing into the cat and clogging it up with oily residue?
The Mighty Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 07:02 PM   #18
Registered
 
hogcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: n.c.
Posts: 203
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Close enough.
hogcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 07:57 PM   #19
Mod is as Mod does.
iTrader: (1)
 
StealthTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: WAAaaay North....
Posts: 7,093
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
Your Flash point.....

The flash point quoted for an oil has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether it combusts completely or not. Nothing. Zero.

The number quoted is the ASTM Closed Cup flash point, a test I do every day at work. The oil is heated in a sealed brass cup and an ignition source is put in the lid every degree of temp rise. When enough vapor accumulates, there will be a tiny "flash" detected by the UV sensor, and you have your flash point.

An oil that is composed of many sizes of molecules will let its "light" stuff out, and flash sooner. An oil made of one engineered molecule (like a synthetic) won't have any light material to release.

No dinosaur juice can lubricate like a purpose-built synthetic 2 stroke oil - none.

S
StealthTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2006, 11:40 PM   #20
Registered
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: macon, georgia
Posts: 10,758
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
the only pre mix oil to really stay away from is a castor based pre mix--that one will mess your cat up. Some 2 cycle engines that run pre mix(duhhh) actually have cats and use a synthetic pre mix. Respect your experience and knowledge hogcar but many 8 owners have been running a low dilution pre mix for some time. I run a blend of Lucas top cylinder lube/fuel injector cleaner/ yamaha full synthetic race pre mix--mix to a 50/50 ratio an add 1/2 oz per gallon. With the mop in place dont go over that. Engine has been running better than ever since I have started that and changed the oil viscosity to 10w/30 in the hot georgia weather. (5w/30 in winter months) oh and i use royal purple.
olddragger
olddragger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 12:26 PM   #21
Registered User
 
vcpatel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I hope it's not too late to bring this thread back, but I had a few questions in regards to olddragger's last post:

-Is olddragger saying that some 8 owners are using a combination of oil and gasoline to whatever dilution, and also running synthetic engine oil WITH the OMP in place?

- olddragger: Do you add this 50/50 Lucas cylinder lube and yamaha premix to your gasoline every time you add gasoline, or is this something you do only when you know the engine is going to experience high stress levels [maybe an autocross or track event]?

- Also, would switching back and forth between running this premix, and then running normal gasoline through the engine have any kind of detrimental effects? I'm not sure if I want to go through the hassle of having to add premix every time i add gasoline.

BTW: I am running Royal Purple 5W-20 in my car along with a few very minor modifications.

Apologize in advance for the question whoring.
vcpatel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 08:00 PM   #22
Registered
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: macon, georgia
Posts: 10,758
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
NP man--that is one reason why this forum is so good.
to answer
1- yes i added premix everytime i put gas in the car.I will not go pass 1/2 oz to the gal. keep a little bottle in the truck.
2- switching will not have any detrimental affect, except imho this engine doesnt get enough oil in the combustion chamber(one of the things the S flash per mazda address's). Street driving can actually be harder sometimes than a track event--(if you drive the car correctly at the track!)
RP is good oil, I also use it--but if you live in a hot climate or heck even if you dont I would hightly recommend 5W/30 AND the prelube.
Dont worry be a ***** all you want!
Olddragger
olddragger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2006, 08:01 PM   #23
Registered
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: macon, georgia
Posts: 10,758
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
keep a little bottle in the TRUNK,, that other bottle ---errrrr No honey I havent had a drink!
OD
olddragger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2006, 08:46 AM   #24
Registered User
 
vcpatel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks OD.
vcpatel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2006, 01:19 PM   #25
Black and B-E-A-UTIFUL!
 
wisconsinben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 287
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Where is a good place to get something like Yamalube 2R?
wisconsinben is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Swap to end all swaps galognu Rotary Swaps 98 11-10-2017 05:25 PM
COBB AccessPort Hunterkelley24 Series I Engine Tuning Forum 8 10-14-2017 11:36 PM
Is there a better 2 cycle oil that you don't have to order? Digitz0070 Series I Aftermarket Performance Modifications 55 07-25-2017 09:40 PM
RAYS VOLK Racing CE28N - 18x9.5 +28mm 5x114.3 Limited Edition RAVSPEC Vendor Classifieds 0 10-01-2015 02:59 PM
My Rx8, strange Noice (Whistle) no Belt. tommy26Germany Series I Trouble Shooting 11 09-29-2015 11:33 AM


Tags
20w, 50havoline, oil, racing

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:32 AM.


All content Copyright 2017 by Internet Brands, Inc. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.