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The Official "RX8 in DSP" Thread
This is probably my last year running in STX and am likely bound for DSP next year (finances willing). The only "serious" DSP class RX8 I'm aware of belongs to Zelse in the Philly/NYC area for the last several years starting in BSP before this years reclassing (no offense if there are others). Since most RX8s going to DSP will likely be STX converts the likely place to start is with the additional allowances for DSP. The following list is an abbreviated summary of the permitted changes. It's highly recommended that you make yourself thoroughly familiar with the particular details and nuances of the Section 15 Street Prepared ruleset before performing any modifications.
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4345117)
Street Prepared allowances above Stock: Remove A/C components (interior & exterior but heater system must not be modified) DOT-R tires are permitted Any diameter or width wheels Cut or flair fenders to accommodate wheel/tire size Any high-back seat (no minimum weight limit) Any steering wheel (no air bag requirement) front splitter & rear spoiler aero is allowed, but no aftermarket rear wings A fuel cell is allowed as long as its installation conforms to GCR requirements, the vehicle conforms to SCCA Track Level 3 time trials safety requirements (roolbar ir cage, window nets, etc.) including an installed fire extinguisher, and has at least 80% capacity of the factory fuel tank (S1 is rated 15.9 Gal from Mazda = 12.75 Gal minimum allowed capacity) Stereo/speakers/amps can be removed (wiring must remain, any resulting holes must be covered) Any single brake master cylinder or brake booster. A single bolt-on master cylinder brace is allowed. A brake proportioning valve is allowed. No limit on rotor cross-drilling surface area Brake backing plates can be modified or removed. Brake air ducts are allowed as long as the body/structure is not modified Steering rack bushings can be changed as long as the metal content is equal or less than OEM Any ignition system or component is allowed Any starter or alternator is permitted, alternator output must be equal or greater than OE Any oil pan, oil pump, oil cooler(s), or oil pump pickup is allowed, including an Accu-sump Fuel injection and intake manifold are unrestricted, including injectors, rails, throttle body, linkage, pressure regulator, etc. All emission control devices may be modified or removed, except for wiring harnesses Intake water injection is allowed Any fuel pump(s) is(are) allowed, any fuel line is permitted up to 1/2" ID with one supply line, one return line, and an added fitting is allowed at the top of the fuel tank Any gasoline fuel is permitted including E85 since it's DOT approved Any radiator is allowed as long as it uses the OE mounts and is equal or larger in core size (S1 core size = 25.50" x 14.50" x 1") (S2 core size = 25.25" x 14.63" x 1.38"), fluid capacity, and dry weight than OE (may serve no other purpose such as allow a cold air intake passage, etc.) Any radiator fan & shroud is permitted (except flex-fans, not applicable) Any metal clutch & flywheel is permitted (friction surfaces can be non-metallic i.e. carbon-carbon discs ok, etc.), an alternate slave cylinder/device is permitted (allows conversion from slave/mechanical actuator to full hydraulic direct actuator) Engine & drivetrain components may be balanced, but not lightened Intake and exhaust port matching is permitted within 1" of the interface joint Any aftermarket engine computer is allowed (MoTeC, etc.) Update/backdate between 2004-2008 S1 and 2009-2011 S2 models - 4.777 rear gear and finned diff cover - stronger trans with a slight weight penalty - upgraded suspension and chassis parts . |
Been running DSP this year myself @ CT Autocross. Competition is sparse unfortunately. There is another R3 who runs (Goddesshunter) but lately the top podium finish has been going to this slightly modded GTI that runs R-comps and some minor performance mods :( (and a 6yr vet of autocross). Hopefully soon I can afford myself a set of nice sticky tires.
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Team, find Zealse at Nats and talk to him about how much tire can fit up front in DSP trim. I'd be curious to hear your input and what is causing them to say 285 is the limit. I've not looked to closely at the issue they say limits this.
Having driven the car in BSP form last year, it is a hell of a lot of fun. It should be even better now that he has sorted out some suspension issues and until money allows for a real clutch type diff has put the torsen back on. |
I already know. With the proper offset and some fender clearancing you can get 295s to fit (i have a picture posted on here). My ntention is to run either the 285/30-18 or the 275/35-17 size though. The limit issue most people have is due to wheel offset, as most readily available wheels tend to not have as much offset as you can fit the tire to the inner clearance limit. An example is the Enkei 10" wide RPF1, which is fairly light and low cost, but max offset available is only +38. Once you maximize offset the limitation becomes the tire hitting the back fender/footwell wall at full lock. Steering rack limiters are allowed though. Most people are too scared to cut their fenders, but at this point I don't think it will be necessary for SP.
I've already collected several sets of wheels over the last two years; 17x10 +52, 18x10 +56, and 18x10.5 +43 . |
Yea, I was curious about the bracket on the firewall/wheel well. I've not looked into it much. I guess 315's would be out of the question on an RX8. Based on local results from Marc's car, i'm not sure it would benefit much from bigger tires anyway. The car is damn fast and very competitive with our flock of national level drivers up in New England.
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The issue beyond the 295 size becomes the diameter vs width which both then start to really impact clearance. Hoosier A6 sizes @ published OD x Section Width x Weight (Tirerack price 9-13-13):
225/40-17 @ 23.8" x 9.8" x 20 lbs ($270) 245/40-17 @ 24.5" x 10.0" x 21 lbs ($288) 275/35-17 @ 24.7" x 11.0" x 23 lbs ($310) 275/40-17 @ 25.5" x 11.0" x 24 lbs ($318) 295/35-17 @ 25.3" x 11.6" x 24 lbs ($340) 315/35-17 @ 25.6" x 12.6" x 27 lbs ($357) 225/40-18 @ 24.8" x 9.5" x 20 lbs ($341) 245/35-18 @ 24.7" x 9.8" x 21 lbs ($341) 255/35-18 @ 24.8" x 10.8" x 22 lbs ($341) 275/35-18 @ 25.5" x 10.7" x 23 lbs ($341) 285/30-18 @ 24.9" x 11.5" x 24 lbs ($357) 295/30-18 @ 25.3" x 11.6" x 24 lbs ($365) 315/30-18 @ 25.6" x 12.7" x 27 lbs ($376) IMO an RX8 fully trimmed down to the minimum SP weight allowances won't need to go there. At that weight a 315 will need 11.5"+ width wheels to keep the tread-face flat, which would require cutting & flaring the fenders with steering limiters too. The 275/35-17 on a 10 or 10.5" wide wheel looks the best to me, 17" wheels that clear aftermarket brake calipers with the proper offset are hard to come by and/or expensive. That said, a few people are claiming the car can be just as fast and better balanced in overall conditions running smaller width tires. So I added those to the list and may experiment with them on my STX wheels . |
Congratulations are in order for Zelse's BHR-sponsored RX8 finishing DSP in 4th place at the 2013 SCCA Solo National Championships!
:smiley309 most awesome indeed against such a tough field of competitors |
Congrats, Zelse!
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Didn't even know this thread existed until just now! Firstly, thanks to Team for the props, much appreciated! I admit, I drove like complete poopydoodle. I watch the videos and I was late on everything, and got lost twice on the East Course somehow. I wasn't used to the pressure/excitement/everything that is Nationals since this was my first..But that will definitely change next year.
But like Team said, it's in the car, thus why it placed 4th. Without Bryan Heikotter (the other alien), it would've been 3rd against the normal DSP contenders. I'm pretty proud of that considering she's still not at 100%. The big remaining things that are getting taken care of is aero from Joefis Racing (just dropped the car off on the way home from Nats), and my long tube header I've been working with BHR on for the past... well..Long time now. Then this winter, BHR and I will be rebuilding the engine for high compression (right now the front is mid 9's and the rear rotor is high 7's) and port matched per the rules. I'll take a bunch of pictures too so no one can try and say I have illegal crap done on the car, you know? To contribute to what Team had mentioned about wheel fitment, I showed him at Nats how the pinch weld in the front wheel well would get in the way (it also sits behind the wheel hub, so you can't do anything about it either, so fender flaring wouldn't help at all). To fit my 285's on my 18x10 +38, I need to run low caster, or else it will rub, so I run 3.5 degrees of caster (which I prefer anyways). Like Team mentioned, you can fit a 295, but would need different offset wheels and may need to play with your caster a bit. Anything more than that though, good luck fitting. I know you can do steering limiters but I'm not sure I'd like to limit the amount of steering I have... But that's just me! |
Zelse is definitely setting the bar for the RX-8 in Street Prepared. I have been running low caster for forever, so this along with the higher offset wheels is likely why the 295s went on OK for me (pic below, 10.5" +43 wheels). My only issue with them was rubbing the front outer fender lip some, which at the time I had the car extremely lowered and I didn't need/want to roll/flair it while running in the STX class. I did roll the rear fender lips flat for the fitment though. It's much easier to do than the front with no liner & rivet clips to deal with. It was just a test fitment at that time and a tight fit for sure.
https://www.rx8club.com/members/team...eels-33912.jpg It was definitely nice to finally meet up with Ray. I'd like to publicly apologize for my contribution to the various misunderstandings we've had over the last few years. It's good to know all this is in the past now and we can go forward as RX8 brothers in arms. . |
First of all, congrats to Zelse and co-driver for a solid showing at Nationals! Your results are pushing me to join up in DSP for next year too.
As another data point, I put 285/30/18 BFG's on my car with the same 18x10+38 RPF1's. The BFG's have a little bit more tread with than either the 285 or 295 A6. I rolled the rear fender lips and there doesn't seem to be any kind of clearance issue back there at all. I didn't do anything in the front because the tire hits plastic that I can't move before it hits anything else. I also get some rubbing up against the firewall and it's rubbed through the front of the wheel well liner where it connects to the bumper. I only notice rubbing while driving around paddock with very high steer angles. This is what it looked like when I checked it with the front springs removed: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-a...629_174753.jpg |
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Well, I get to pick her up on Saturday to see the new aero! From what I can tell from the pictures, Joe over at Joefis did an amazing job! Can't wait to see it in person and see the painted final version. I just did a blog post about the work and some of the pictures he's sent, so check it on out.
RE-Zelse: New Aero From Joefis Racing Since I've gotten this done, this means he has a template handy now and can make these easily and send them out. |
Originally Posted by Zelse
(Post 4522270)
I'll take a bunch of pictures too so no one can try and say I have illegal crap done on the car, you know?
Originally Posted by Zelse
These pieces are 100% by the book, and totally class legal
just so everyone is clear, because it seems like several aren't despite it being discussed extensively on the forum; you can't remove the plastic shroud off the front crash bar to route a CAI, Racing Beat ram duct, etc. This is very specifically detailed in Appendix F - Clarifications - Street Prepared. The clarification example there is for the MX5 Miata, but it also applies to anything similar and in the case of the RX8 is exactly the same thing. It would also be wise for any serious National competitor to fully read the first introductory page of Appendix F, particularly with regard to rules interpretations. Removing the cloth insulators from the engine bay, as ragged and as ugly as they may be, and trying to claim they are allowed to be removed as "exhaust shields" under 15.10.I is the kind of thing they are referring to there. IMO your hood liner isn't an exhaust shield and neither are they. Just like in the case of the plastic piece on the MX5 & RX8 being called a "radiator shroud" by the manufacturer in the parts literature, these components are not listed as exhaust heat shields there. Sort of the reverse yet same concept about how these may be judged. In either case, or in many others, these are the "trivial for performance but critical WRT rules compliance" kind of things that can result in a high trophy position or Championship win instead turning into last place and you being bummed out for the next 6 months. . |
I guess the obsession did stem from the discussion a bit. Not negatively towards you or anything at all, but mostly out of fear in the simple fact that...The last thing I would want to happen is to be protested by some punk at Nationals just because of a simple misunderstanding, you know?
As for the insulators, I don't think that would be an issue with anyone, especially the BMW guys. I thought you said you were going to take yours out anyways ;) As for the intake, I'll be purchasing the piece over winter and fixing all that, but I haven't decided yet what the best approach to this would be. I'm still considering writing a letter to the SEB arguing that this makes zero sense given what we can and cannot modify in this class. we'll see I suppose. |
I would rather remove mine if it was possible, it's just not allowed or worth it
sooner or later it will happen, be prepared to deal with it when it does |
The question is, do you think it would be one of us, or one of the non RX-8 DSP guys?
I was thinking about it last night too BTW. I've actually always been obsessed about being "by the book" because when I win, it feels 100 times better to also say, "And the car was legitimate" as opposed to,"Oh I had to do these shady things to make the car perform better". When I win, I want it to be because of my skill and my car being 100% prepped by the book, not because I cut corners, you know? That's just my two cents. Anyways, enough about that. No comments on the aero man?? I was expecting to hear some input on it. :) |
Originally Posted by Zelse
(Post 4525397)
The question is, do you think it would be one of us, or one of the non RX-8 DSP guys?
BTW, if you want to convince me to come to DSP, bring the car down to NJ for an event and let me co-drive. :FIREdevil |
Considering you're the final straw of why I stuck with the whole RX-8 shenanigans, I'd totally be down for that. ;) I'll definitely be doing more NJ events next year too.
As for the rule stuff, you're right. So I'm doing the craziness... My approach is that I'm writing to Mazdaspeed for advice on a way to get a tech bulletin out that specifically says that piece is apart of the emissions system, or, apart of the intake system. If I can get that, then we're home free. If not, I'll have to try a different approach to the board. Their stand point is that they don't want people to modify body trim pieces to fit intercoolers and what not, so they see this in the same light. As for the insulation, I'm just going to straight up write to the board and ask for a clarification on the RX-8 in SP regarding this. They weigh nothing, they act as both heat insulation and as sound deadening, and are held in by plastic nuts. They also are featured on next to no other car (hood insulation aside), and there is no rule in any class (I looked multiple times) that specifically says you can modify/remove/etc. to engine bay insulation... So that would mean that even in a crazy class like XP, you would still have to run engine bay insulation, which is just straight up silly. I know in Street Mod you can remove hood insulation because it is seen as part of the hood, but there is no mention of engine bay insulation. |
again, I'm just sharing what I think I know. That said, I'm not always right WRT how the SEB may view things i.e. the Toyo tire legality issue (I still think I'm right, they just didn't want to upset the ST/STS apple cart and PO a major supporter/sponsor). Over the last 5+ years I have been the Protest Chief at almost every Tour or Pro Solo event I attend, 7+ per year. Not always right, but been around the mulberry bush a time or two in the last 20 years of doing Solo. Reasonable people will disagree, which is why we have the process for handling such things.
Letters to/from Mazdaspeed mean nothing. They are the manufacturers racing arm. The rules define this relationship very clearly; official manufacturer non-racing data & documentation only. You won't get Mazda to go back and rename the part, but feel free to try. Even if you did the SEB still has the option of claiming they only did it for racing purposes and kill it anyway. The factory literature doesn't classify engine bay insulators as an exhaust heat shield. It's not in the vicinity of the exhaust. It's called an insulator by Mazda. It's an engine bay heat shield against radiator/engine heat just like the hood liner. That's how I see it. If you can convince someone to let it be removed I'll be happy. I couldn't keep the rubber strips on under the rocker panels and tried to get them clarified as removable under the ST rule for removing rub strips, mud flaps, etc. They said no. The strips cost over $100 each new I lost a few at events when they fell off, it sucks. Same thing, no real weight or performance advantage. They said they have to be there. Oh well. |
Originally Posted by Zelse
(Post 4525546)
Considering you're the final straw of why I stuck with the whole RX-8 shenanigans, I'd totally be down for that. ;) I'll definitely be doing more NJ events next year too.
More importantly, checked out the pics on the blog of the splitter and spoiler, got to love the work they do. Can't wait to see it completed. |
^maybe he'll listen to your sweet talking ways and reinstall those insulator panels in the engine bay :yelrotflm
I was thinking about using 1/4" birch plywood for my splitter and spoiler, then laquering it up all glossy like high grade furniture along with a ChrisCraft logo ... |
so the big question is, what does the splitter and spoiler weigh total?
Guessing at least 20 lbs myself |
Also Rota recently released their RT5 wheel in a 17x10 +50 5x114.3 size
weight is on the fugly side at 20# each but they are really cheap, a new set is FS on eBay for $800 Rota Wheel RT5 New Style RT 5 17x10 5x114 3 50 White S2000 MR2 Prelude | eBay |
can't tell you how happy it makes me to have finally pulled out the AC system again :biggthump
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Waiting for a nice day to take some pictures, so possibly today, but goddamn these pieces are gorgeous. 15 lbs. total for both front and rear.
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^^not too bad for aluminum sheet metal
started pulling the stereo components out last night, also removed the steering wheel/air bag assembly a bit discouraging that everything from the factory is already near minimum weight :-/ |
I would recommend Reynobond, Alumalite, etc for the splitter
lighter, stiffer, more durable but, will buckle before your bumper does (which is a good thing) |
I do have a question though
why the fascination with such large tires? is it just a better setup for autoX? do you really need that much tire or even have the power to push that much rubber NA? edit: that was 3 questions :) |
nice job on the aero
how does the splitter connect to the car/chassis and is it adjustable? |
I'll let Mark answer the tire question as he can probably articulate it better than I. I will add however that I do believe there is a tire/wheel limit that is opitimal per car/chassis/power/torque and what seems to work really well is 255 on an 18x9 wheel and a 285 sized tire on a 18x10 wheel. Heat generation on the tire and outside temperature also plays a roll in this as well.
With the front splitter, I'll get more in-depth pictures soon but if you look at their FB page it has the whole build process and setup of it. It's non-adjustable however. Per the class rules we're limited with what we can do anyways. |
For the record, I weighed the pieces in. The rear spoiler is only 6.6 lbs. and the front is 7.4 lbs. So an exact total of 14 lbs! That's pretty good.
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Autox is much more transitionally intense (or violent in some respects) than road racing. Despite the higher speeds and longer duration loads, for track things happen in much smoother and slower timing. That said, there's a point the weight and diameter starts to work against the chassis/engine so it can come down to available wheel and tire choices. I have a good set of 17x9 wheels that I'll try at least 245/40-17 (225/40-17 seems like a stretch) and I'm working on a set of 17x 10.5 wheels to also try the 275/35-17. Despite also having 18" wheels I prefer to focus on using 17" to start.
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Howdy,
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4526922)
Autox is much more transitionally intense (or violent in some respects) than road racing. Despite the higher speeds and longer duration loads, for track things happen in much smoother and slower timing. That said, there's a point the weight and diameter starts to work against the chassis/engine so it can come down to available wheel and tire choices. I have a good set of 17x9 wheels that I'll try at least 245/40-17 (225/40-17 seems like a stretch) and I'm working on a set of 17x 10.5 wheels to also try the 275/35-17. Despite also having 18" wheels I prefer to focus on using 17" to start.
Mark |
makes sense...thanks for the explanation guys
marka - lighter, cheaper tires, slightly shorter (more grunt out of the corners) |
if I'm not mistaken the winning DSP car this year was using 275/35-17 ...
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Howdy,
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4528032)
if I'm not mistaken the winning DSP car this year was using 275/35-17 ...
The winning DSP car this year didn't win because of superior car prep. :-) Mark |
There are a lot of factors involved, but were obviously good enough to win by a substantial margin regardless. Having the widest tires is no guarantee of anything, assuming they are actually wider where it counts or in actual use given the application parameters, like a sub-11" wheel on a 2600# car
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Looking forward to seeing more RX-8's in DSP next year. After some further thought I'm confident the car will have a chance. Marc's car has shown great potential. It will take $$'s I don't have though to build my car further. If only the budget allowed I would be for sure.
Running the widest wheels possible that do not extend outside the body is a good start. If pursuing the 275 route, a 275/35-15 could potentially fit in the rear. It would eliminate the need for a final drive change and possibly allow the rear to work better by not screwing the roll center as much. |
An informative post by Team on wheel fitments:
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4150593)
A 10" wide wheel is the max width you can use that sticks close to the factory offset and takes advantage of all the inboard wheel space @ 50 - 52mm offset. With a fat tire (285 or 295) it will fill out the fender and also look mean as hell with all that rubber under there. You also aren't going to experience handling and driveability issues that result from wheel offsets lower than factory.
If you want to run wider than 10" then you have no choice but to start lowering the offset because there is no more inboard space available without extreme mods like tubbing and major suspension relocation/redesign. With every width increment above a 10" width @ +50-52mm offset you'd have to move the offset out by half that amount. So for 1/2" increase above 10" width (10.5") half that amount is 1/4" = 6.3mm or 7mm for practical purposes. At each 1.5" increase you could subtract 1mm to account for the fractions adding up to a whole number, but there aren't too many RX8s using 11.5" wide wheels let alone 13" wide, lol. At anything past 10.5" wide using this basis the fender will need pulling or flaring for an equally wide tire not to rub because it will be sticking too far outboard of the factory fender lip to clear. So the resulting size/offsets would be: 10.0" @ +50 to +52mm 10.5" @ +43 to +45mm 11.0" @ +36 to +38mm 11.5" @ +30 to +32mm 12.0" @ +23 to +25mm Otherwise running undersize tires to accomplish this fails on several accounts. To make the tire sidewall lean for fender clearance means that it has to lean both on the inside and the outside. A ridiculously narrow tire is required the further outboard the wheel lip sits outside the fender lip. Way back when tire sidewalls lacked good support but todays performance tires are designed such that a wheel wider than the tread width/contact patch width accomplishes no performance benefit. So a wide wheel with a high positive offset just to put a skiny tire on it is pointless and silly. Some wheel width/tire size reference points are: 9" wheel @ 245 to 255 tire 10" wheel @ 275/285 tire 11" wheel @ 305/315 tire 12" wheel @ 335 tire Some change in offset from the original +50mm (S1 models) is not going to have much impact, but as you continue to push it out the resulting scrub radius moment arm is creating a force that makes the tires want to turn out, putting the steering components in constant tension while driving in a straight line. As such a setup encounters uneven pavement, bumps, water puddles etc. that moment arm is going to try and rip the steering wheel out of your hand position. Even moreso for these conditions under braking because this same scrub radius moment arm is going to magnify the braking deceleration forces against the steering wheel as well. |
lol, i forget posting things like this ...
Wish I could find a set if 17x10.5 +45 SSR Type C or C-RS wheels @ 17.2# each. Supposedly they made at least one run production along the way, but I've yet to ever see a 2nd hand set up for sale ever .... |
A little late on the post, but I finally did a nice digest of my thoughts on the aero.. When I was dealing with a dying fuel pump! Check out the post and feel free to leave comments or post your thoughts on here.
RE-Zelse: Aero Testing @ Renegade The overall verdict? Get it. With some minor alignment changes, I know that it will make the car pretty unstoppable. I was able to carry a lot more speed into various elements, flat foot slaloms for the most part, and get on the throttle a lot earlier. I had to brake earlier now however, because of the push it creates, but it's a very different type of push than say.. A car pushing because of alignment settings. You can feel the difference too. Anyways, thats my two cents! |
sounds like fun, so thanks for rubbing it in while my car is sitting in a thousand pieces ...:mad:
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:P Your car will be whole again soon though. Take some pics of it in pieces! Tell us what you're working on! Stop being a shadowy figure in the dark and share some goodies. :)
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+1 on that!
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well I already have a number of items from STX prep, but the things done so far
audio system out steering wheel & air bag out AC system out most emissions components out radiator/fan/shroud assy out interior torn apart front bumper cover and undertray are off next thing on the list is pulling the engine/trans, but have to help member WBTRotary! install his Daryl Drummond built engine starting this weekend before getting to this step a bunch of stuff on order, don't really care to go into it all for now, but pretty much in keeping with my usual thought process & prep level . |
2 Attachment(s)
couple of things rolling in,
ULW steering wheel with Miatacage.com splined QD setup https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1382080289 mini clutch with Mazdatrix flywheel setup https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1382080289 sorry for being secret squirrel about the scale figures, just can't help myself :lol: . |
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4535429)
mini clutch with Mazdatrix flywheel setup
BTW, I hope you have a winch on your trailer! |
I have one planned, but it's my understanding that this is not as much of an issue as it is sometimes made out to be. There are a lot of different clutch suppliers out there, a wide array of materials, as well as the quality and expertise level of either. They're not all created equal, that's for sure. I suppose only time will tell though.
picked up a used S2 6 spd transmission today ... |
Oooh decided to go with the S2 Tranny, hmmm? Doing the rear end as well or just the transmission? I've wondered what the car would be like with 4.44 but S2 tranny instead. Definitely would be a bit slower but able to stay in 2nd in the powerband no problem...
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