NASA Time Trials 2008
05-04-2008, 08:45 PM
#1
I miss my 'Bu
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NASA Time Trials 2008
Post up if you are competing this year.
What class and how have you been doing? Any comments on the experience would be welcome as well.
I am competing in TTD. After 3 events thus far (of which I have run 2 only), I am in first place with 2 wins and 2 second place finishes. (Each day of competition is scored so a weekend counts as 2 races).
My classification points are as follows:
Koni Challenge Hoosiers (225/45/17) +6
Racing Beat intake +1
Racing Beat cat back +1
Racing Beat springs +2
Bilstein HD shocks +3
Racing Beat front sway bar +2
Total points = 15
Thus far TTD in NASA-SE is a sparsely contested class. I am just doing it for fun and don't take it too seriously. I run on old tires that are several heat cycles past their optimum and my points were not spent with creating the ultimate time trial car. That said, I try hard to win every race I enter and enjoy getting better lap times than some of the TTB cars out there. The awards banquets on Saturday night are a chance for an average guy just having fun to get on the podium and take home a trophy. It is also fun getting bragging rights to track records.
The typical TT weekend is very busy as I instruct as well. There isn't much time to kick back and relax between runs but I wouldn't have it any other way. The satisfaction of watching your student learn new skills and improve is also a nice reward.
I often wonder how I would fare in the thick of the TT competitors running TTA if I had a TTA car. That always is the biggest group populated mainly by Z06s. I wonder if I could drive a fast car quite as fast as they can. In the mean time I am having fun driving my relatively slow car fast. Maybe at some point I will graduate to a more purpose built track machine. This has got to be good practice and a great way to hone skills.
What class and how have you been doing? Any comments on the experience would be welcome as well.
I am competing in TTD. After 3 events thus far (of which I have run 2 only), I am in first place with 2 wins and 2 second place finishes. (Each day of competition is scored so a weekend counts as 2 races).
My classification points are as follows:
Koni Challenge Hoosiers (225/45/17) +6
Racing Beat intake +1
Racing Beat cat back +1
Racing Beat springs +2
Bilstein HD shocks +3
Racing Beat front sway bar +2
Total points = 15
Thus far TTD in NASA-SE is a sparsely contested class. I am just doing it for fun and don't take it too seriously. I run on old tires that are several heat cycles past their optimum and my points were not spent with creating the ultimate time trial car. That said, I try hard to win every race I enter and enjoy getting better lap times than some of the TTB cars out there. The awards banquets on Saturday night are a chance for an average guy just having fun to get on the podium and take home a trophy. It is also fun getting bragging rights to track records.
The typical TT weekend is very busy as I instruct as well. There isn't much time to kick back and relax between runs but I wouldn't have it any other way. The satisfaction of watching your student learn new skills and improve is also a nice reward.
I often wonder how I would fare in the thick of the TT competitors running TTA if I had a TTA car. That always is the biggest group populated mainly by Z06s. I wonder if I could drive a fast car quite as fast as they can. In the mean time I am having fun driving my relatively slow car fast. Maybe at some point I will graduate to a more purpose built track machine. This has got to be good practice and a great way to hone skills.
05-04-2008, 08:54 PM
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Personally I always thought it was harder to drive a momentum car than one where you just stood on the gas and watched the speedo. It takes longer to come up to terminal speed in a slower car, so mistakes hurt more.
05-06-2008, 11:18 AM
#4
i find that horsepower cars ---they are more difficult to drive fast.
Think about it. For instance with the 8, throttle modulation in the corners does not have as extreme effects as with an hp car, you dont get as much lift throttle oversteer as an hp car, hp's are faster on the straights so good braking becomes more difficult (it is more difficult to brake from 145 than 120!), with an hp car you have have to be more sensitive on the throttle and you have to watch traffic more as everything is happening at a faster rate, you have to be much more carefull on corner exit, and last but not least with an hp car it is easier to bust something!
The 8 is so damn smooth that it looks so easy.
olddragger
Think about it. For instance with the 8, throttle modulation in the corners does not have as extreme effects as with an hp car, you dont get as much lift throttle oversteer as an hp car, hp's are faster on the straights so good braking becomes more difficult (it is more difficult to brake from 145 than 120!), with an hp car you have have to be more sensitive on the throttle and you have to watch traffic more as everything is happening at a faster rate, you have to be much more carefull on corner exit, and last but not least with an hp car it is easier to bust something!
The 8 is so damn smooth that it looks so easy.
olddragger
05-12-2008, 08:11 PM
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Track Addict,
I just made the jump from autocrossing to TT and can't be happier. I was running BS in autocross so have stock wheels. where I'm at we have mostly PCA events, but I want to stay in NASA D class. What would you recommend, I'm looking at a new set of wheels as well as most of the mods you made to the suspension. I saw that you have 17inch wheels, did you want that for a reason over the 18's? What would you do for the ultimate TT RX8?
I just made the jump from autocrossing to TT and can't be happier. I was running BS in autocross so have stock wheels. where I'm at we have mostly PCA events, but I want to stay in NASA D class. What would you recommend, I'm looking at a new set of wheels as well as most of the mods you made to the suspension. I saw that you have 17inch wheels, did you want that for a reason over the 18's? What would you do for the ultimate TT RX8?
Last edited by FRANCES; 05-12-2008 at 08:19 PM.
05-12-2008, 09:47 PM
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One of the beauties of the TT rule set with its points system is there are so many different ways to go. It's not like SCCA classing where the mods are all fixed for a class, and the only reason not to do something is if it really doesn't make a difference on your car. With the points system, it really pays to know your car and what's most worth doing.
Do you go for big, sticky tires and try to make the stock suspension work with them, or do you rework the suspension more thoroughly and hope to get more speed out of less rubber grip through improved handling dynamics? Do you go with narrower Hoosier-like tires or wider but less sticky R-compounds, or even street tires? For example, TrackAddict advocates coilovers below, but I've contemplated the use of 275/35-18 Hoosiers (17 points) and anti-roll bars (2 pts) as the only point-accruing mods to max out TTD. Will RX-8 dampers handle it? Don't know.
Do you use up the points for an intake that doesn't really add much power? Is ECU tuning the best possible power mod? Does a set of headers really wake up your engine? Is an exhaust useless for making more power but worth it for the weight reduction? What weight reduction items actually matter? An OE BMW E36 hood weighs about 50 lb, so the 1 point to replace it with a 12 lb MA Shaw cf hood is a no-brainer if you can afford it. Our hood weighs 15 lb. if I remember right, so it's not such a benefit to change. Replacement of seats is free; in my BMW, I saved 22 lb. per seat by replacing them with seat/bracket combos that are still 7 lb. heavier each than the cloth RX-8 seats. You can also take combinations of rules to the extreme, such as removing significant interior items, replacing them with ballast on the floorpan (lower the CG) in a preferred location (improving corner weights) at no point penalty and using the Alternative Method weight rule to avoid getting points for the removals.
Is it better to spend points trying to make power, by reducing weight, or by improving handling? Do you have multiple set ups that you vary by track? Would you uninstall your Access Port and put on stickier wheels/tires at one track versus another?
You will also face questions about your level of committment due to available opportunities in the no-points mod list. Some cars have options there to gain big with no penalty, others not so much. We don't have a lightweight starter option, others do. Our A/C system doesn't weigh much. Some AC systems are held to the block with a bracket that approaches 10 lb just by itself. Some cars benefit from removing/blanking out the sunroof, others can be readily found without them in the first place. Some cars have terrible brake balance, or ABS that isn't tolerant to the difference between the response of Hoosiers and the response of the stock tires, so they can benefit greatly from messing with brake master cylinders. Is it worth removing your stereo for the track? Just in this area alone, the "ultimate TT car" would not necessarily be pleasant or legal to drive on the street. Also, the "ultimate TT car" is obviously the one that goes fastest at nationals. Any faster than that is a waste of time and or money.
My actual opinion is that the RX-8 is fundamentally a very good car with an efficient chassis, so a lot of the options don't get you very far. On the other hand, if you're going for nationals, you pretty much have to exploit every angle you can think of. You should do anything in the no-points section that won't compromise the car beyond the level you are willing to live with in you other driving, and that makes sense economically. Spend a few weeks of your free time reading what others on the forum have done, and make some decisions about what can be done within your budget, and still leave you money and time and a reliable car to go to the track and drive as much as possible. And don't forget the tuning. You might be better off buying, or going in with a buddy on alignment gear, corner scales, a GPS system, whatever, rather than putting that same amount of money into car mods.
In the end, speed doesn't come from parts nearly as much as it comes from setup and driving. The current GRM has an article where they rework some spec Miatas to take them closer to the rule allowances. In the end, the pro driver was actually able to turn a faster lap with one of the club guy's cars than he did with the pro car. And what works best for one driver may not work best for another.
There are two things that matter. The smile on your face, and (if you care), the trophies on your shelf. Everything else is B.S., and should take a walk.
Do you go for big, sticky tires and try to make the stock suspension work with them, or do you rework the suspension more thoroughly and hope to get more speed out of less rubber grip through improved handling dynamics? Do you go with narrower Hoosier-like tires or wider but less sticky R-compounds, or even street tires? For example, TrackAddict advocates coilovers below, but I've contemplated the use of 275/35-18 Hoosiers (17 points) and anti-roll bars (2 pts) as the only point-accruing mods to max out TTD. Will RX-8 dampers handle it? Don't know.
Do you use up the points for an intake that doesn't really add much power? Is ECU tuning the best possible power mod? Does a set of headers really wake up your engine? Is an exhaust useless for making more power but worth it for the weight reduction? What weight reduction items actually matter? An OE BMW E36 hood weighs about 50 lb, so the 1 point to replace it with a 12 lb MA Shaw cf hood is a no-brainer if you can afford it. Our hood weighs 15 lb. if I remember right, so it's not such a benefit to change. Replacement of seats is free; in my BMW, I saved 22 lb. per seat by replacing them with seat/bracket combos that are still 7 lb. heavier each than the cloth RX-8 seats. You can also take combinations of rules to the extreme, such as removing significant interior items, replacing them with ballast on the floorpan (lower the CG) in a preferred location (improving corner weights) at no point penalty and using the Alternative Method weight rule to avoid getting points for the removals.
Is it better to spend points trying to make power, by reducing weight, or by improving handling? Do you have multiple set ups that you vary by track? Would you uninstall your Access Port and put on stickier wheels/tires at one track versus another?
You will also face questions about your level of committment due to available opportunities in the no-points mod list. Some cars have options there to gain big with no penalty, others not so much. We don't have a lightweight starter option, others do. Our A/C system doesn't weigh much. Some AC systems are held to the block with a bracket that approaches 10 lb just by itself. Some cars benefit from removing/blanking out the sunroof, others can be readily found without them in the first place. Some cars have terrible brake balance, or ABS that isn't tolerant to the difference between the response of Hoosiers and the response of the stock tires, so they can benefit greatly from messing with brake master cylinders. Is it worth removing your stereo for the track? Just in this area alone, the "ultimate TT car" would not necessarily be pleasant or legal to drive on the street. Also, the "ultimate TT car" is obviously the one that goes fastest at nationals. Any faster than that is a waste of time and or money.
My actual opinion is that the RX-8 is fundamentally a very good car with an efficient chassis, so a lot of the options don't get you very far. On the other hand, if you're going for nationals, you pretty much have to exploit every angle you can think of. You should do anything in the no-points section that won't compromise the car beyond the level you are willing to live with in you other driving, and that makes sense economically. Spend a few weeks of your free time reading what others on the forum have done, and make some decisions about what can be done within your budget, and still leave you money and time and a reliable car to go to the track and drive as much as possible. And don't forget the tuning. You might be better off buying, or going in with a buddy on alignment gear, corner scales, a GPS system, whatever, rather than putting that same amount of money into car mods.
In the end, speed doesn't come from parts nearly as much as it comes from setup and driving. The current GRM has an article where they rework some spec Miatas to take them closer to the rule allowances. In the end, the pro driver was actually able to turn a faster lap with one of the club guy's cars than he did with the pro car. And what works best for one driver may not work best for another.
There are two things that matter. The smile on your face, and (if you care), the trophies on your shelf. Everything else is B.S., and should take a walk.
Last edited by SolarYellow510; 05-12-2008 at 11:11 PM.
05-12-2008, 10:02 PM
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I miss my 'Bu
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Great question! I went to 17" wheels after having a set of spare stockers. The reason I switched was 4 fold -
1. Lighter weight wheel/tire combo
2. Slight reduction in overall tire diameter for better gearing.
3 I bought used wheels from ROAR Racing for an awesome price that I could not refuse.
4. I could find a better selection of inexpensive used race tires.
If I was building a TT car from the start and money was no object yet stay in TTD, I would do the following...
Coilover suspension - best I could find and not incur more than the 3 points for shocks and 2 for springs. (+5)
Sway bars - match sway bar rates to compliment the springs (where stiffest isn't necessarily better) (+2)
245/40/17 Hoosier R6 (+10)
Intake (+1)
Catback (+1)
I would also lighten the car to be at the minimum allowable weight as well as do a full cage.
Of course brake pad compound is important and something aggressive like XP10 Carbotech would be in order. Part of weight reduction plan would be Racing brake 2 piece rotors, lightweight drivers seat, shifting weight from the front of the car to the rear to improve balance.
The best platform to start with would be a non sunroof cloth interior car with the sport suspension.
I see you are in Texas. Several NASA-Texas members come to our events at Road Atlanta as well as Barber. If you ever make it out here, give me a shout.
1. Lighter weight wheel/tire combo
2. Slight reduction in overall tire diameter for better gearing.
3 I bought used wheels from ROAR Racing for an awesome price that I could not refuse.
4. I could find a better selection of inexpensive used race tires.
If I was building a TT car from the start and money was no object yet stay in TTD, I would do the following...
Coilover suspension - best I could find and not incur more than the 3 points for shocks and 2 for springs. (+5)
Sway bars - match sway bar rates to compliment the springs (where stiffest isn't necessarily better) (+2)
245/40/17 Hoosier R6 (+10)
Intake (+1)
Catback (+1)
I would also lighten the car to be at the minimum allowable weight as well as do a full cage.
Of course brake pad compound is important and something aggressive like XP10 Carbotech would be in order. Part of weight reduction plan would be Racing brake 2 piece rotors, lightweight drivers seat, shifting weight from the front of the car to the rear to improve balance.
The best platform to start with would be a non sunroof cloth interior car with the sport suspension.
I see you are in Texas. Several NASA-Texas members come to our events at Road Atlanta as well as Barber. If you ever make it out here, give me a shout.
05-13-2008, 10:45 AM
#8
dont forget small things like removal of the a/c belt, smaller alternator, synthetic fluids, running with the least amount of gas as possibile, no 4 point belts without a rollcage, no oil/radiator screens, premix, dei radiator coolant, rb cold air intake to stock box with k/n filter and just one screen, light flywheel/pressure plate and clutch, weight bias for r/l turn dominate track depending, maybe remove the front brake dust plates, colder sparkplugs, better coils/wires, no cat? etc
olddragger
olddragger
05-13-2008, 06:15 PM
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Thanks for all the good scoop, I'm focusing the effort at this point to making a reliable car and having the tools to set it up right.
Our track set up this last time had some big straights and 1 good sets of S's, the rest sweepers. TTOD was 1:26.4, 2004 Z06 vette, lots of suspension work and R6's. My fastest 1:34.1. longest straight, .7miles, getting 120 at the braking marker, so this was a fast 2.0mile track.
The next event should be a longer course and more technical, may help to reel in the vettes and other fast porsches but the car is running fast for this class. The PCA events are not NASA though and have a different classification, but I'm driving to stay D for the events at Texas World later on in the year.
Our track set up this last time had some big straights and 1 good sets of S's, the rest sweepers. TTOD was 1:26.4, 2004 Z06 vette, lots of suspension work and R6's. My fastest 1:34.1. longest straight, .7miles, getting 120 at the braking marker, so this was a fast 2.0mile track.
The next event should be a longer course and more technical, may help to reel in the vettes and other fast porsches but the car is running fast for this class. The PCA events are not NASA though and have a different classification, but I'm driving to stay D for the events at Texas World later on in the year.
Last edited by FRANCES; 06-14-2008 at 12:26 PM.
06-14-2008, 10:54 AM
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Had Time Trial at Harris Hill Road in San Marcos, Tx. Blew a tire 120 miles outside town and had to use useless mazda tire sealant to limp home, no replacements available in three rivers tx. Luckily I had air tank to keep tire inflated.
next event July, will post my standings.
At least I get to see 24 hours of lemans.
next event July, will post my standings.
At least I get to see 24 hours of lemans.
06-14-2008, 01:37 PM
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Frances, what group is running time trials at Harris Hill? It doesn't appear to be NASA.
Please post a link if you've got it. I'd like to come down and check out Harris Hill some time this year.
Please post a link if you've got it. I'd like to come down and check out Harris Hill some time this year.
06-15-2008, 10:54 AM
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Running with the coastal bend PCA. I'm posting on this thread as my goal is to get into the NASA TT events in the future, and want to compare my times and information with other TT guys. Here in sunny south texas the PCA guys are a great group and the only show in town. The harris hill event is a debut of the track and I hope to run there in the future. If you have the money and are close enough you can become a member at H2R.
http://www.harrishillroad.com/
Cheers!
http://www.harrishillroad.com/
Cheers!
06-16-2008, 10:50 AM
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Thanks for the heads up. I've no interest in a membership (Eagles Canyon and MotorSrpot Ranch are both closer to me, as I'm in far NE Dallas), but I am curious in seeing the track, since I've heard good things about it.
I don't see anything on their site abut an event at H2R in July? Am I missing it, or is there some secret link not on the Coastal Bend website?
I don't see anything on their site abut an event at H2R in July? Am I missing it, or is there some secret link not on the Coastal Bend website?
06-16-2008, 05:03 PM
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July event will be here in Corpus for the Coastal bend PCA. The track location is changing from Cabannis to waldron NALF just a few miles away. I think the the dates will be posted soon when that change is all sorted out.
The H2R event was an new one, and we probably wont run there until next year. One of our Miata guys posted some video from the track and pictures.
Secret CBR/RGV PCA site location: http://www.rgvpca.org/
I hope to make it north when it cools a bit in august or sept for the NASA TT events coming up.
Cheers!
The H2R event was an new one, and we probably wont run there until next year. One of our Miata guys posted some video from the track and pictures.
Secret CBR/RGV PCA site location: http://www.rgvpca.org/
I hope to make it north when it cools a bit in august or sept for the NASA TT events coming up.
Cheers!
06-26-2008, 03:05 AM
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Right now I'm running HPDE 3. Plan to start TT next year. I saw no 8's and mostly (fast) Radicals etc running in group 4/TT at the last CW Buttonwillow event. I'm a little concerned about being road kill out there with a bunch of race prepped cars but I'll probably jump in anyway once I get some more open track stuff.
Ultimately I see myself buying a Formula Mazda (standard) and running that.
While we're talking TT mods do you guys have any suggestions on what to wrap a set of RPF1's 18X9.5 +45 with for track days. Thinking of something a little stickier than stock, low end price wise, but durable enough to last me several events and of course nothing better than my driving skills at this stage.
Ultimately I see myself buying a Formula Mazda (standard) and running that.
While we're talking TT mods do you guys have any suggestions on what to wrap a set of RPF1's 18X9.5 +45 with for track days. Thinking of something a little stickier than stock, low end price wise, but durable enough to last me several events and of course nothing better than my driving skills at this stage.
06-26-2008, 07:45 PM
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As with our discussion above, you need to look at the NASA rules to decide how many points you wan't to take. As I remember everything over 245 has a penalty. 18's are gonna cost a lot more, so size will matter.
Many have suggested the TOYO RA 1 as a good long life R compound tire, I think Altiain runs them. Not shaved I think upwards of 30 heat cycles. Shaved to 4/32 about 15-20 heat cycles. The BF Goodrich g-Force R1 is also a tire that I have read will be in the 20 heat cycle range.
I'm on the fence but am about to commit to either the 255/40/17 RA1 or R1.
Oh, Altiain, we are running 12 July at Cabannis, and may put together another H2R event in the fall in addition to the other events locally. I'll keep you posted.
Cheers!
Many have suggested the TOYO RA 1 as a good long life R compound tire, I think Altiain runs them. Not shaved I think upwards of 30 heat cycles. Shaved to 4/32 about 15-20 heat cycles. The BF Goodrich g-Force R1 is also a tire that I have read will be in the 20 heat cycle range.
I'm on the fence but am about to commit to either the 255/40/17 RA1 or R1.
Oh, Altiain, we are running 12 July at Cabannis, and may put together another H2R event in the fall in addition to the other events locally. I'll keep you posted.
Cheers!
06-27-2008, 04:22 PM
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While we're talking TT mods do you guys have any suggestions on what to wrap a set of RPF1's 18X9.5 +45 with for track days. Thinking of something a little stickier than stock, low end price wise, but durable enough to last me several events and of course nothing better than my driving skills at this stage.
275's are the optimal size for a 9.5 inch rim. You can run a little smaller or a little bigger.
One thing to think about though is the points you are going to rack up running a wide tire. 245 tires are the base size for TTD and you are going to incur a points penality for anything bigger than that.
My tires push me into TTC with the BMW M3.
12-27-2008, 10:07 AM
#22
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Season wrap up
NASA-SE had its season Finale at the beginning of Dec at Road Atlanta. The last race was on Saturday and was a double points event. I was sitting in first place with a 5 point lead so I had to beat the person in the #2 position to take home a first in TTD for the SE. Unfortunately, it was not to be. I finished in 2nd place for the day and my nemesis crushed my track record and took the win. There were 5 cars in class that weekend and a total of 16 cars that scored points over the course of the year.
The winning car was a fully race prepared 93 BMW325is (full cage, no interior, engine heavily modified etc) driven very well compared to my heated seats, sunroof, full interior car. My best lap was a 1:44.4 which I was extremely happy with. By comparison, Ray Huffmaster drove a T3 prepared RX8 in the 2006 ARRC to a 1:42.3 in qualifying and did race laps in the 1:44s. So a couple seconds off a top level club racer in his single purpose racer car aint too shabby.
I do not plan on going for the 2009 championship but will do whatever events I can. I want to say thanks to the members of the GA RX8 Club who helped me out for the season ending finale. You guys are the best.
The winning car was a fully race prepared 93 BMW325is (full cage, no interior, engine heavily modified etc) driven very well compared to my heated seats, sunroof, full interior car. My best lap was a 1:44.4 which I was extremely happy with. By comparison, Ray Huffmaster drove a T3 prepared RX8 in the 2006 ARRC to a 1:42.3 in qualifying and did race laps in the 1:44s. So a couple seconds off a top level club racer in his single purpose racer car aint too shabby.
I do not plan on going for the 2009 championship but will do whatever events I can. I want to say thanks to the members of the GA RX8 Club who helped me out for the season ending finale. You guys are the best.
12-28-2008, 02:19 AM
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NASA-SE had its season Finale at the beginning of Dec at Road Atlanta. The last race was on Saturday and was a double points event. I was sitting in first place with a 5 point lead so I had to beat the person in the #2 position to take home a first in TTD for the SE. Unfortunately, it was not to be. I finished in 2nd place for the day and my nemesis crushed my track record and took the win. There were 5 cars in class that weekend and a total of 16 cars that scored points over the course of the year.
The winning car was a fully race prepared 93 BMW325is (full cage, no interior, engine heavily modified etc) driven very well compared to my heated seats, sunroof, full interior car. My best lap was a 1:44.4 which I was extremely happy with. By comparison, Ray Huffmaster drove a T3 prepared RX8 in the 2006 ARRC to a 1:42.3 in qualifying and did race laps in the 1:44s. So a couple seconds off a top level club racer in his single purpose racer car aint too shabby.
I do not plan on going for the 2009 championship but will do whatever events I can. I want to say thanks to the members of the GA RX8 Club who helped me out for the season ending finale. You guys are the best.
The winning car was a fully race prepared 93 BMW325is (full cage, no interior, engine heavily modified etc) driven very well compared to my heated seats, sunroof, full interior car. My best lap was a 1:44.4 which I was extremely happy with. By comparison, Ray Huffmaster drove a T3 prepared RX8 in the 2006 ARRC to a 1:42.3 in qualifying and did race laps in the 1:44s. So a couple seconds off a top level club racer in his single purpose racer car aint too shabby.
I do not plan on going for the 2009 championship but will do whatever events I can. I want to say thanks to the members of the GA RX8 Club who helped me out for the season ending finale. You guys are the best.
12-28-2008, 12:47 PM
#25
I miss my 'Bu
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BMW did a 1:43.5 (.9 seconds faster than my best time). Some people on here said the car to beat in TTD is the E36 M3 but this was an E36 325is instead. It starts off in TTF with two asterisks and 189 hp. After doing cams, other engine mods, suspension and weight reduction it is easily in TTD with more power than a stock M3 and less weight too.