Snrub

I'm having a hard time sorting out the choices of brake pads. I'm looking for a pad that can handle daily driving street and track duty. The track I do lapping on isn't very fast so I don't think the braking requirements are as great as with some tracks. I'm currently running Hawk HP+ pads. I'm very happy with the track performance, but I'm not sure that they've lasted as long as I would like. They're intermittently noisy on the street (before anti-squeel spray they were pretty crazy) and they dust a fair but, but I suspect there's not much I can do about the last point. They're also cheap and widely available.

This is a great thread, but it leaves me with a lot of questions:
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-...-range-137786/

I'm trying to figure out the competitors and whether I should try them:
Porterfield R4 - Some people say this isn't a streetable pad. Porterfield's graphs seem to suggest otherwise.
Porterfield R4-1 - I'm concerned about the crazy high friction these generate on porterfield's graphs. Are they hard on rotors?
Carbotech AX6 - Some people seem to say these aren't really suitable for the track. Their operating range spec seems to suggest otherwise.
Carbotech XP8 - Some people seem to suggest these aren't streetable.
Cobalt Friction XR4 - Cobalt friction's website is worries me: 2004-2010 (all models) They call this an autoX pad. They compare it to the AX6 and R4S - street pads and Hawk black/HT-10 - pure track pads.
Cobalt Friction XR3 - Seems like they might be a nice choice for me, but again the comparison to hawk worries me. Operating temp range is very large.
EBC Yellow - Might be a decent choice, but the friction cooeffiicent doesn't increase until a crazy high temp.

Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. I live in southern Canada and I drive the car year round.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (10)

If you're trying to find brake pads that are suited for street use and track use you will never be happy with any brake pad. What a lot of people do is have a dedicated set of track pads and rotors that they swap onto the car for a track weekend.

Either the pad will be excellent on the track, and be noisy and dust a lot and chew up rotors and get excessive wear if you daily them, or they will suffer from brake fade and excessive wear on the track and be quiet and not dust a lot.

The HP+ is one of the best "compromise" pads but I haven't really tried any others on your list as I just use HT-10's now and don't drive the car on the street much.

Snrub

Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't displeased with the HP+, but I'm hoping to determine if there is a better option. I don't really want to go through the effort to swap out the rotors and pads every time I go to the track and again when I get home. I'm okay with some compromise.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

HP+ is a 20+ year old pad design and a pretty crappy one too IMO. It's very grabby. I never liked it.

I use the Porterfield R4-1 "vintage" pad. Despite the high friction level it is very easy to modulate. You just have to use lighter brake pressure and not engage too early or too heavily, which IMO works well for heal & toe braking. The advantage of it is that the friction level comes in at low temperature and will clamp down hard when you need it too. The disadvantage is that if you ride the brake pedal too much or too heavily then you are better off with the R4, which is slightly more tolerant of higher temps. The R4-1 does dust on the heavy dide, but cleans easily. It will likely squeal under some street conditions too.

ScubaSteve8

Snrub,

I see from your profile that you're from London so am I correct in assuming you run at Grand Bend or TMP? If so, you will be fine with the HP+ or Carbotech AX6. As previously stated there really is no good compromise, just varying degrees of bad one way or another. I personally liked the HP+ better when my car used to be a street car - didn't grab so hard and felt better on the track when the car was still stock.

Unfortunately there isn't much of a decision to be made as you're at the best compromise pad already. If your car is stock, just stick with the HP+ and upgrade to SS lines. If you've got sticky tires and moderate mods done, you may want to consider swapping pads before going the track to the HT-10. The HT-10 is the best pad for the all tracks in the GTA with the exception of the driver development track at Canadian Tire Motorsport Park - that place rapes any pad.

kbrewmr2

The term "streetable" is an extremely subjective quality, it cannot be measured. You're just going to have to experement a little to find something you're happy with.

I've only run stock & HPS thus far, so can't really offer much in the way of RX8 experience. I did feel that XP8s were streetable on my MR2s, but, it's tough to compare across different platforms and brake setups plus that pesky subjectiveness thing...

Loki

iTrader: (1)

XP8s should be streetable. Carbotech's range gets unstreetable around XP12.
The question depends a little bit on the level of tracking you're doing and the tires you're on. Are you maxing out the HP+s now? If you're on R-comps, you've probably got more tire than pad, the only solution is a separate set of track pads. If you're on mixed-duty tires, you can probably continue to use mixed duty pads. I'm a bit of the same boat and shooting for XP10s next, not a fan of HP+s, I keep glazing them.

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

Ahh, the holy grail, I've been there, but have long since given up looking for a one pad fits all. It's a compromise, there is no pad that will work well at everything...

In the past I have found Ferodo DS2500 to work well as a dual duty pad as long as you don't really push on track (not sure if you can find them for this car).

The best I have tried for this purpose are CL5+ (carbon lorraine) pads on my civic. I used them on track, autocross and daily driving and really liked them for the feel and the consistency of friction across a wide temp range. The only real downside on those is price for this car (OK, and dust compared to oem, and you could hear some grinding, but no squeal on the street for me).

I might also be tempted to try stoptech performance pads on the track (but have not as of yet). I can say the street feel is not as good as the CL5+ pads, but they are much cheaper, so even if they wear quickly on the track, you can go through 2 or more sets for the price of some other pads.

I've also tried DS1.11 - impressive on track, but way too loud to drive on the street. I did not like Carbotech XP12 - it did not last very long on track (at very high temps) and did not have very good feel.

Hawk DTC60 are my current track pads, and I inevitably drive for a week before and after an event with them on the street. They are actually not bad on the street. At very low temps you do need to press the pedal a bit harder, but that is partly in comparison to how well they work when heated. They also make a little noise. I don't think they would work well at an autocross due to the way the friction ramps with temperature. Actually, even on track the high change in friction with temp can be felt, and they can range from a little soft to grabby depending on the temp. The reason I am using them is that they do work, last well enough and are economically priced compared to other track pad options.

In the end, I found it is cheaper and works better to get two separate sets of pads and swap between them. IMO, no need to swap discs as well, just run your track pads for a week before and after an event to clean the transfer layer off the discs.

Boeuf

iTrader: (2)

I just upgraded to the Racing Brake BBK with 2-piece rotors front and rear and I went with the R4-1 pads. I haven't run them on the track yet as I just installed them last week but my first impressions are these are going to be great dual purpose pads. So far they are very quiet although they do dust quite a bit. I agree with you on how easy it is to modulate these pads and if you really get on them the bite is amazing.
My friend has the Racing Brake 4-pot calipers and he is running the HP+ with shms and his squeal like crazy. I'm not even running shims and the R4-1's are very quiet. I only have a few hundred km's on them but I'm hoping they stay quiet.

I can't wait to try these on the track.

Snrub

Thanks for all of the responses. I really appreciate it. This far I've only run at grand bend (small track) and the HP+ work well. At the risk of sounding immodest, under braking I typically destroy other street cars driven by run of the mill people and can stay on track continuously for an hour. I've run street tires. TMP, another small track and Centralia air port are other local venues I'll probably try as well. I've done Shannonville and Mosport DDT in the past. We're spoiled for tracks here.

R4-1 - Good to hear they're not noisy. What about rotor and pad life? What should I expect if I'm not light with the pedal?

XP8 - good to hear they're streetable. Loki did you find that true in Montreal? Kbrewmr2 drove a lighter car, but in Texas.

AX6 - how do they compare to HP+?

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I think the R4-1 just wear faster at higher extreme temps, likely not an issue unless you are enduro racing. I use them front & rear on a RacingBrake 4-pot 2-pc front kit and OE rear caliper/RB 2-pc rear rotor setup and they are very rotor friendly

http://porterfield-brakes.com/images...6_02_41_04.pdf

I would recommend discussing it with them if you have concerns.


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ScubaSteve8

I found the AX6 just grab too hard initially compared to the HP+, and wasn't very pleasant to drive on the road given that fact.

Snrub

Here was porterfield's response to my questions about the R4-1:
Obviously the swap pads for the track thing seems to be what everyone suggests... At the risk of being an idiot can why I would want to run seperate track and street sets if my pads aren't fading? Figure 2-3 hours to install the pads before the track and 2-3 hours afterwards to swap the street pads back in. That might seem like a lot, but I'm factoring caliper retraction and some bleeding each time. If I can get say 4 lapping events and a year of street driving out of a set of pads, isn't that a sensible way to go?

kbrewmr2

eh Mk2 MR2s aren't super light, mine was around 2850lbs with driver typically. All steel, 4 firewalls, etc. Also when I was DDing that car, it was in the Carolinas - they have 4 actual seasons fwiw.

Also to echo what Team says - call 'em and talk with their tech people. I know Carbotechs are very nice from personal experience, Porterfield's as well.

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

2-3 hrs is a lot, but yeah I can see that as a total time to jack up the car, change the pads, bleed the brakes, one or two other minor things and then clean up and put all the tools away. If you do it regularly, get a system down with the proper tools, and don't dilly, it is possible to do all that in less than 1 hr, even less if you don't bleed the brakes.

Note, Porterfield are not saying you have to swap them, just that the choice is yours - they have given you an honest reply as they know that their track pads are not going to be as good as street pads on the street and don't want to mislead you into thinking that.

However, since you are not getting any fade at the track right now, as you state there is no reason to go to a more aggressive pad, unless you see more aggressive track use in your future.

Carbotech AX6 would seem to be a more direct alternative to HP+.

EDIT: also cobolt friction XR4 based on your first post.

Ferodo DS2500 is also a competitor to HP+, but I don't see anywhere that carries DS2500s for the RX8.

I found CL RC5+ (Essex - CL RC5+ Brake Pads) to work very well as a dual use pad, but they are over 2x the price of HP+ for the RX-8. I expect these will work better than HP+ on track, and may even work better on the street as well.

At the other end of the scale to the CL pads are the StopTech Street Performance Pads and even the oem pads. I expect they will both work better for daily driving than HP+, but not as well on track. The stoptechs are around half the price of HP+ though.

TANKERG

If the HP+ or any other streetable track pad is working for you, then carry on. If you are happy with their performance and you're not experiencing any fade, you're staying under their operating temperatures, and they are lasting a year for you, that's a bonus.


I personally love the way the HP+ pads feel. I'm not a fan of how much they dust, but that's how it goes. Last year I ran them for the first time, and I got 3000 miles with 500-600 of those miles being on three different track days over two months and they were done. On the last track day I got them over their operating temperature, and they started to smear and leave deposits on my rotors. I was lucky I didn't experience any fade, but now because of that, I had to upgrade to a full track pad, and I do the dreaded swap before and after the track day.

Post #157 https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-whe...-167264/page7/


So keep a close eye on how they are performing and make sure you check the pad thickness before every track day and check it during the day as well.

WTBRotary!

iTrader: (6)

FWIW I have had the HP+ pad now and I can say they are VERY grabby... I don't like them at all for a street pad, there's no modulation, its like a on or off switch...

Currently looking at some new brake pads as well that are easy to modulate but are a decent in-between auto-X and Street pad (Carbotech AX6)

Snrub

Hmmm... I had some deposits on the rotors similar to TANKERG's. It didn't look as bad as that picture. Perhaps I did over heat them a bit...

Chibana

I had asked around about the Porterfield R4-1 pads a while back. I haven't taken my RX-8 to the track yet, but I hope to start next year. It will probably be only 1 or 2 trips a year. I was hoping for one pad to use for both street and track, but have mostly given up on that idea. Maybe I don't need to. Brian Goodwin had recommended the R4-1 to me as a track pad that would work OK on the street, but with greater noise and dusting. I also contacted Porterfield, and this was their reply (I mentioned to them that my RX-8 is garaged for the winter, but it does see some near freezing temperatures in early spring and late fall):

Brian sells a lot of these and would know best how they work on Mazda’s. The pad was designed to have higher friction at lower temps for vintage and autocross racing so one could assume that the friction level and normal street temps would be sufficient. However that being sad we as a company never recommend that Race pads be used on the street just like we do not recommend that street pads be used on the track. They are simply not designed for alternate uses. They will dust and squeal a lot and could wear more rapidly as they are designed to wear better at race temps.

Again Brian sells these pads and many others specifically for Mazda’s I have faith in his knowledge of those cars. We as the manufacturer have to go on what they are designed for and their best performance area. That is not to say that they do not perform well in other areas.

I'm concerned with the cold weather performance of the pads, and I had given up on the idea of pad for both street and track, but with so few trips to the track every year, it seems like a large hassle to have a second set of pads.

TANKERG

If you have never tracked a car before, stock pads will do just fine. I drove my first three years on oem pads. Just something to think about

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

For me, cold weather performance is a non-issue with any race pad I have tried. I have always been able to stop the car, it might just take a bit of awareness that it will take a little more pedal travel and pressure than when the brakes are warm.

Squeal and cost of pad wear are the bigger issues for me on the street.

Dust and brake disc wear are also issues with race pads on the street but don't bother me as much.

Razz1

I use the Porterfield R4 for track and street with no problems for 9 years

blu3dragon

iTrader: (1)

OP: DTC-30 might be worth a try if you can find them. See the chart here with temp ranges: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-...e-info-188727/

Snrub

Good suggestion, but according to Hawk's website they only sell rear pads for the RX-8 in the DTC-30s.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Porterfield can custom machine a set of front pads in the DTC30 compound. However, it's a race-only pad too and I much prefer the R4-1 compound, cold or hot. I rarely drive on the street though.



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