First RX-8 Autocross experience
09-06-2004, 03:51 PM
#1
Insanely Yellow
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First RX-8 Autocross experience
Well, I had a good outing at the Chicago Region SCCA autocross (SOLO 2) event yesterday at Route 66 Motorsports complex south of Chicago. OUt of 170 entrants, there was only ONE RX-8 - me! And that was fun - my car was definitely an "IT" car - lots and lots of people stopping by to admire it/ask about it/etc.
Can't say that I was terribly competitive - I was running the OEM street tires, so they lumped me into the "Street Tire" class which meant I was lumped into a class that included everything from a stock Dodge Stratus four door R/T (killed him!) all the way up to several Corvettes, an Acura NSX, a few M3s, an M5, and a Ferrari (all of which beat me handlily ...).
I was more competing against myself, in that regard, did very well - picked up about 6 seconds from the beginning of the day to the end of the day (from 60.125 to 55.304 seconds), and was relatively consistent on my last three runs.
The car is easy to drive smoothly, and much more powerful than what I used to autocross (if you can call a 19 year respite "being used to" something) which was a 107 HP RX-7 GS from 1985. So, very easy to overdrive the car and use too much power - patience and smoothness were rewarded well. The car was awesome in the slalom and fast sweepers on the course, the brakes are amazing, etc. Lack of torque wasn't much of an issue since other than the start, I was above 4000 RPM in 2nd gear.
For the tire pressure, I set both fronts and rears at 42 PSI and did the "chalk trick" - you draw a patch of chalk that excends up onto the tread and down the sidewall - that tells you where the tire is rolling and how big your contact patch is ... turns out 42 PSI was perfect pressure - contact all across the tread and no sidewall rollover.
All in all, a very fun day!
Stew
Can't say that I was terribly competitive - I was running the OEM street tires, so they lumped me into the "Street Tire" class which meant I was lumped into a class that included everything from a stock Dodge Stratus four door R/T (killed him!) all the way up to several Corvettes, an Acura NSX, a few M3s, an M5, and a Ferrari (all of which beat me handlily ...).
I was more competing against myself, in that regard, did very well - picked up about 6 seconds from the beginning of the day to the end of the day (from 60.125 to 55.304 seconds), and was relatively consistent on my last three runs.
The car is easy to drive smoothly, and much more powerful than what I used to autocross (if you can call a 19 year respite "being used to" something) which was a 107 HP RX-7 GS from 1985. So, very easy to overdrive the car and use too much power - patience and smoothness were rewarded well. The car was awesome in the slalom and fast sweepers on the course, the brakes are amazing, etc. Lack of torque wasn't much of an issue since other than the start, I was above 4000 RPM in 2nd gear.
For the tire pressure, I set both fronts and rears at 42 PSI and did the "chalk trick" - you draw a patch of chalk that excends up onto the tread and down the sidewall - that tells you where the tire is rolling and how big your contact patch is ... turns out 42 PSI was perfect pressure - contact all across the tread and no sidewall rollover.
All in all, a very fun day!
Stew
09-06-2004, 04:00 PM
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Thanks for the great post.
Man, you had some serious competition there! You can't be too depressed about losing to NSX's, Corvettes, and M3's.
And you did beat a Stratus R/T!
Man, you had some serious competition there! You can't be too depressed about losing to NSX's, Corvettes, and M3's.
And you did beat a Stratus R/T!
09-06-2004, 09:50 PM
#4
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09-06-2004, 10:28 PM
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If I had a Boxter I don't think I would take it to an autocross. There are just too many cheaper cars that can smoke it!
Thanks for posting the pics. I continue to be surprised by how much body roll the 8 appears to have. It's never felt that way in my 3 test drives.
Thanks for posting the pics. I continue to be surprised by how much body roll the 8 appears to have. It's never felt that way in my 3 test drives.
09-06-2004, 11:03 PM
#6
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin
If I had a Boxter I don't think I would take it to an autocross. There are just too many cheaper cars that can smoke it!
Thanks for posting the pics. I continue to be surprised by how much body roll the 8 appears to have. It's never felt that way in my 3 test drives.
Thanks for posting the pics. I continue to be surprised by how much body roll the 8 appears to have. It's never felt that way in my 3 test drives.
2. At an autocross, you are very challanged to make the next turn, and then the next turn. It is a very fast series of different challenges, and the 8 does have a high amount of body roll. You get zero body roll under normal (street driving) conditions, but under racing conditions, the body roll is too much.
09-06-2004, 11:23 PM
#7
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Congrats on your success. :D
I keep saying that this car is made to be driven left and right instead of straight
...as to the body roll, get the Tanabe (or other brand) front sway bar. It will keep you in stock class and make a world of difference.
I keep saying that this car is made to be driven left and right instead of straight
...as to the body roll, get the Tanabe (or other brand) front sway bar. It will keep you in stock class and make a world of difference.
09-07-2004, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by StewC625
All in all, a very fun day!
Stew
Stew
09-07-2004, 02:14 PM
#10
Insanely Yellow
Thread Starter
They seem to have changed the rules since then (that's when I used to do it and I also ran an RX-7 then as well and I ran in CS on street tires.
At this event, they lumped ALL the street tired cars into one "S" class - for "street" which meant that I was running in a class with everything from clapped out Civics up to a Ferrari and all manner of stuff in between.
On racing tires (either DOT-legal or track only, doesn't matter - just non-street/non-OEM), they put you in the BS class, the primary runner there being S2000s.
G8rboy: Dude, yes, you'd have loved this!
Stew
At this event, they lumped ALL the street tired cars into one "S" class - for "street" which meant that I was running in a class with everything from clapped out Civics up to a Ferrari and all manner of stuff in between.
On racing tires (either DOT-legal or track only, doesn't matter - just non-street/non-OEM), they put you in the BS class, the primary runner there being S2000s.
G8rboy: Dude, yes, you'd have loved this!
Stew
09-07-2004, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by alnielsen
I am a Chicago Region member and used to autocross in the 80's before I went road racing with the RX7. And have thought about getting back in. What class were you in AS or CS?
Since I follow the results anyhow, here's a link to the original posters event results.
http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/200...t5_results.pdf
Sorry to say but the Stratus whooped yeh, but you did beat a Vette and a WRX! :p
Don't let where you placed discourage you, as long as you had fun that's all that matters, and you'll certainly get better as you do more events.
Ike
Last edited by IkeWRX; 09-07-2004 at 04:51 PM.
09-07-2004, 06:09 PM
#12
Insanely Yellow
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Aw damn! I based that statement on my "last look" at the board before I went out to run my corner ... whoops!
Yup, the Stratus whooped me alright.
Yup, the Stratus whooped me alright.
09-07-2004, 06:10 PM
#13
Insanely Yellow
Thread Starter
Interesting - I didn't spend much time looking at this - there was a Ferrari running in with an "S" on his door next to his number, don't seem him in any of the rankings ...
Yup, I enjoyed the day though, regardless of competition level.
Yup, I enjoyed the day though, regardless of competition level.
09-07-2004, 06:45 PM
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glad you had fun!
i had the 3rd fastest overall street tired time out of 184 entrants at the last autocross event in my region, this is on stock 040's and carrying a passenger. the two cars that beat me were highly modified. this car can be fast in stock form so you can likely beat all those other spendy cars without spending any money.
a difference was i brought water and cooled the tires between every run. they dont work well hot or even warm.
i used 35 psi per corner on concrete. i would use lower pressure on asphalt.
james
i had the 3rd fastest overall street tired time out of 184 entrants at the last autocross event in my region, this is on stock 040's and carrying a passenger. the two cars that beat me were highly modified. this car can be fast in stock form so you can likely beat all those other spendy cars without spending any money.
a difference was i brought water and cooled the tires between every run. they dont work well hot or even warm.
i used 35 psi per corner on concrete. i would use lower pressure on asphalt.
james
09-07-2004, 07:32 PM
#15
Insanely Yellow
Thread Starter
interesting - saw a LOT of guys doing that (spritzing their tires), but my slowness is entirely driver-enduced at this point. It's been YEARS since I autocrossed (19 of them. Three years longer than HORSE has been around)
Here's my times:
60.1
58.6
57.1
55.4
55.8
55.3
On the first three runs, I felt like I was still learning limits of the car - pushing harder and harder, braking later, etc. The next run, I just went "***** out" and pushed the car very hard, nailed the shift to first gear at the sweeper, and had the right amount of patience in other parts of the course - and picked nearly 2 seconds over my last run. The next run, I overcooked the two turns after the slow sweeper, and then spent the slalom off throttle, steering through (a testament to the car's stability and the DSC programming - more on that subject later), and then finished.
The next run, I skipped the shift to second, drove deeper into the sweeper before braking, and with the second gear pull, avoided getting too fast coming out of the two turns prior to the slalom, and posted my best time.
I think where I need to get better is pure racing line - finding the right apexes, etc. If you looked at my pictures, you'll see one shot of the rear of the car with the brake lights on - notice how far to the right I am compared to the rubber on the track. That was run 5 - the right line was further to the left, a later turn in and a later apex. I'm apexing WAY too early in that corner and it's giving me a crappy setup for the next turn.
Next trip to autocross land I'm shutting off the DSC, saying a BIG LONG prayer and hoping for the best. I didn't trust myself or the car enough to do that on the last trip.
I'll definitely try the water spray trick, AND less pressure in the tires. I'll post a picture of my tires with the chalk marks - you can see I probably ran too much pressure in them.
Here's my times:
60.1
58.6
57.1
55.4
55.8
55.3
On the first three runs, I felt like I was still learning limits of the car - pushing harder and harder, braking later, etc. The next run, I just went "***** out" and pushed the car very hard, nailed the shift to first gear at the sweeper, and had the right amount of patience in other parts of the course - and picked nearly 2 seconds over my last run. The next run, I overcooked the two turns after the slow sweeper, and then spent the slalom off throttle, steering through (a testament to the car's stability and the DSC programming - more on that subject later), and then finished.
The next run, I skipped the shift to second, drove deeper into the sweeper before braking, and with the second gear pull, avoided getting too fast coming out of the two turns prior to the slalom, and posted my best time.
I think where I need to get better is pure racing line - finding the right apexes, etc. If you looked at my pictures, you'll see one shot of the rear of the car with the brake lights on - notice how far to the right I am compared to the rubber on the track. That was run 5 - the right line was further to the left, a later turn in and a later apex. I'm apexing WAY too early in that corner and it's giving me a crappy setup for the next turn.
Next trip to autocross land I'm shutting off the DSC, saying a BIG LONG prayer and hoping for the best. I didn't trust myself or the car enough to do that on the last trip.
I'll definitely try the water spray trick, AND less pressure in the tires. I'll post a picture of my tires with the chalk marks - you can see I probably ran too much pressure in them.
Last edited by StewC625; 09-07-2004 at 07:35 PM.
09-07-2004, 08:20 PM
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You guys that run Autocross regularly: How hard do you think this is on your car (other than on the tires)? How much of a beating does your transmission take for example? And Brakes?
I never took my 93 RX-7 Autocrossing because of these concerns. But I love to drive, and I love to race. So, instead of subjecting my car to autocrossing events, I purchased a 125 cc Shifter Kart. This is racing in it's purest form. 3 g's in the corners! Very addicting. Just thought I would mention it as an alternative.
I never took my 93 RX-7 Autocrossing because of these concerns. But I love to drive, and I love to race. So, instead of subjecting my car to autocrossing events, I purchased a 125 cc Shifter Kart. This is racing in it's purest form. 3 g's in the corners! Very addicting. Just thought I would mention it as an alternative.
09-07-2004, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by StewC625
Next trip to autocross land I'm shutting off the DSC, saying a BIG LONG prayer and hoping for the best. I didn't trust myself or the car enough to do that on the last trip.
As for tire pressures, I started running 40psi all around, but after the tires got warmed up I dropped the fronts to 36 and the rears to 38, and felt like that was my best setup.
09-08-2004, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin
You guys that run Autocross regularly: How hard do you think this is on your car (other than on the tires)? How much of a beating does your transmission take for example? And Brakes?
I never took my 93 RX-7 Autocrossing because of these concerns. But I love to drive, and I love to race. So, instead of subjecting my car to autocrossing events, I purchased a 125 cc Shifter Kart. This is racing in it's purest form. 3 g's in the corners! Very addicting. Just thought I would mention it as an alternative.
I never took my 93 RX-7 Autocrossing because of these concerns. But I love to drive, and I love to race. So, instead of subjecting my car to autocrossing events, I purchased a 125 cc Shifter Kart. This is racing in it's purest form. 3 g's in the corners! Very addicting. Just thought I would mention it as an alternative.
Keep in mind you total tracktime is about 5 minutes so you could autocross many many times before you're putting as much stress on things as you would a single track day.
Having been a kart racer and doing track events and autox, just stick with karting, everything else will seem drab in comparison. Unless you can gets yer hands on an F1 car :p
09-08-2004, 05:33 AM
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its not hard on the car partly because the runs are so short, 3-5 minutes per event. a track day with 80 minutes of track time at high speeds is much harder, or a few tries at the stop-light derby. ive got about 800 runs on my regular autocross car and its still going strong.
karts are fun, fast and cheap but they arent cars. it is fun to race cars.
why so reluctant to turn off the DSC? do you think the car will fling itself off the road at each turn without it? i finally managed to spin my rx8, but it was really hard to get this car out of shape. amazingly (almost annoyingly) stable.
james
karts are fun, fast and cheap but they arent cars. it is fun to race cars.
why so reluctant to turn off the DSC? do you think the car will fling itself off the road at each turn without it?
i finally managed to spin my rx8, but it was really hard to get this car out of shape. amazingly (almost annoyingly) stable. james
09-08-2004, 08:01 AM
#20
Insanely Yellow
Thread Starter
RobTomlin:
Is autocrossing hard on your car? Well, I'm guess it's harder on it than every day driving but probably puts less strain on it than being caught in traffic and having to cycle the clutch about 300-400 times an hour ...
Seriously, yes, it's hell on tires, and it definitely wears your brakes faster. If you did 8 or 9 Autocross events a summer, you'd definitely be looking at new tires/brakes a lot quicker than if you didn't do it. I think I'm going to go aftermarket wheels and Hoosier racing tires if I decide to keep up with this. If I only get to 2 events a year, I'm not worrying about it.
But, dude you bought the ultimate autocross appliance already! Man, there is no better fun on 4 wheels than a shifter cart.
Oh, one of the coolest cars of the day there was a Lola "Formula Ford" chassis powered by the engine from a Suzuki Hayabusa 1100 CC motorcycle. Damn did that sound "bad"!
G8rBoy: Yeah, I know, I need to shut off the "nanny" ... just figured for my first day out I'd get the hang of the car with the babysitter along for the ride.
Ok, here's a funny related to the DSC - just occurred to me - those are the initials of a girlfriend I had years ago in college that was a total, naggy, whiny, controlling beeyotch. (so, you're thinking, why in hell did I stay with her enough for her to be my girlfriend? Well, let's just say that if you had a Harley, and it wouldn't start, she could help you.) So, I guess that's a good omen to just hit that button, hold it down until the system gives up and goes away (until I key off and back on of course).
Stew
Is autocrossing hard on your car? Well, I'm guess it's harder on it than every day driving but probably puts less strain on it than being caught in traffic and having to cycle the clutch about 300-400 times an hour ...
Seriously, yes, it's hell on tires, and it definitely wears your brakes faster. If you did 8 or 9 Autocross events a summer, you'd definitely be looking at new tires/brakes a lot quicker than if you didn't do it. I think I'm going to go aftermarket wheels and Hoosier racing tires if I decide to keep up with this. If I only get to 2 events a year, I'm not worrying about it.
But, dude you bought the ultimate autocross appliance already! Man, there is no better fun on 4 wheels than a shifter cart.
Oh, one of the coolest cars of the day there was a Lola "Formula Ford" chassis powered by the engine from a Suzuki Hayabusa 1100 CC motorcycle. Damn did that sound "bad"!
G8rBoy: Yeah, I know, I need to shut off the "nanny" ... just figured for my first day out I'd get the hang of the car with the babysitter along for the ride.
Ok, here's a funny related to the DSC - just occurred to me - those are the initials of a girlfriend I had years ago in college that was a total, naggy, whiny, controlling beeyotch. (so, you're thinking, why in hell did I stay with her enough for her to be my girlfriend? Well, let's just say that if you had a Harley, and it wouldn't start, she could help you.) So, I guess that's a good omen to just hit that button, hold it down until the system gives up and goes away (until I key off and back on of course).
Stew
09-08-2004, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by StewC625
RobTomlin:
Is autocrossing hard on your car? Well, I'm guess it's harder on it than every day driving but probably puts less strain on it than being caught in traffic and having to cycle the clutch about 300-400 times an hour ...
Seriously, yes, it's hell on tires, and it definitely wears your brakes faster. If you did 8 or 9 Autocross events a summer, you'd definitely be looking at new tires/brakes a lot quicker than if you didn't do it. I think I'm going to go aftermarket wheels and Hoosier racing tires if I decide to keep up with this. If I only get to 2 events a year, I'm not worrying about it.
But, dude you bought the ultimate autocross appliance already! Man, there is no better fun on 4 wheels than a shifter cart.
Oh, one of the coolest cars of the day there was a Lola "Formula Ford" chassis powered by the engine from a Suzuki Hayabusa 1100 CC motorcycle. Damn did that sound "bad"!
G8rBoy: Yeah, I know, I need to shut off the "nanny" ... just figured for my first day out I'd get the hang of the car with the babysitter along for the ride.
Ok, here's a funny related to the DSC - just occurred to me - those are the initials of a girlfriend I had years ago in college that was a total, naggy, whiny, controlling beeyotch. (so, you're thinking, why in hell did I stay with her enough for her to be my girlfriend? Well, let's just say that if you had a Harley, and it wouldn't start, she could help you.) So, I guess that's a good omen to just hit that button, hold it down until the system gives up and goes away (until I key off and back on of course).
Stew
Is autocrossing hard on your car? Well, I'm guess it's harder on it than every day driving but probably puts less strain on it than being caught in traffic and having to cycle the clutch about 300-400 times an hour ...
Seriously, yes, it's hell on tires, and it definitely wears your brakes faster. If you did 8 or 9 Autocross events a summer, you'd definitely be looking at new tires/brakes a lot quicker than if you didn't do it. I think I'm going to go aftermarket wheels and Hoosier racing tires if I decide to keep up with this. If I only get to 2 events a year, I'm not worrying about it.
But, dude you bought the ultimate autocross appliance already! Man, there is no better fun on 4 wheels than a shifter cart.
Oh, one of the coolest cars of the day there was a Lola "Formula Ford" chassis powered by the engine from a Suzuki Hayabusa 1100 CC motorcycle. Damn did that sound "bad"!
G8rBoy: Yeah, I know, I need to shut off the "nanny" ... just figured for my first day out I'd get the hang of the car with the babysitter along for the ride.
Ok, here's a funny related to the DSC - just occurred to me - those are the initials of a girlfriend I had years ago in college that was a total, naggy, whiny, controlling beeyotch. (so, you're thinking, why in hell did I stay with her enough for her to be my girlfriend? Well, let's just say that if you had a Harley, and it wouldn't start, she could help you.) So, I guess that's a good omen to just hit that button, hold it down until the system gives up and goes away (until I key off and back on of course).
Stew
09-08-2004, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
Since you're in 2nd gear the whole time it's not that hard on the car, though it's certainly going to put more stress on things than any driving you do around town.
Keep in mind you total tracktime is about 5 minutes so you could autocross many many times before you're putting as much stress on things as you would a single track day.
Having been a kart racer and doing track events and autox, just stick with karting, everything else will seem drab in comparison. Unless you can gets yer hands on an F1 car :p
Keep in mind you total tracktime is about 5 minutes so you could autocross many many times before you're putting as much stress on things as you would a single track day.
Having been a kart racer and doing track events and autox, just stick with karting, everything else will seem drab in comparison. Unless you can gets yer hands on an F1 car :p
When I get an RX-8 I may take it to an autocross event just for the sake of experiencing it, but I'm sure you are right that it won't compare to racing a Shifter Kart.
04-09-2005, 10:10 PM
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Stew,
You might have some company at the next Chicago SCCA autocross. Today day 1 of the SCCA learning curve school. Tommorrow we have day two.
In the school, there are two other RX8s besides mine, so that's 3 more RX8s that might be running the local events.
You might have some company at the next Chicago SCCA autocross. Today day 1 of the SCCA learning curve school. Tommorrow we have day two.
In the school, there are two other RX8s besides mine, so that's 3 more RX8s that might be running the local events.
04-09-2005, 10:59 PM
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Good to hear guys are getting out there, those of you in the Northern burbs should come out to the events at Miller Park, it's a very active region with all ranges of driver skill attending from national champs to first timers.
04-10-2005, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
Good to hear guys are getting out there, those of you in the Northern burbs should come out to the events at Miller Park, it's a very active region with all ranges of driver skill attending from national champs to first timers.
I'm quite close to sconsin so I might make some of the WAI events.