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Feal 441 Coilovers Look Interesting

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Feal 441 Coilovers Look Interesting

Old 03-16-2017, 08:49 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by TC4Tay View Post
Subbed for your pending review. Though I will not tracking my R3 as much as some of you guys, I still want something decent and if the Feals are as good or better than the Ohlins I was considering, it'll be nice to save a few hundred dollars.
I think I can make this decision easy for you.

1. If you value street performance and comfort over track performance, but still want a setup that is competent on the track if not pushed too hard, you cannot beat Ohlins. Ohlins makes springs that are ~3x the rate of the factory springs feel better (IMHO) than the factory setup, albeit in a "sporty" way vs. a "luxury" way. Track performance is quite good on 200+ TW tires if you don't push them beyond their design envelope. You can counteract their tendency to oversteer at the limits to some degree with a large front bar.

2. If you value track performance highly, and don't mind living with some discomfort on the street to attain that track performance, go with Feal. Some Feal coilovers are starting to show up on Miatas at the track, and they are performing very well out there. The ride is less than stellar on the street, but certainly better than most of what is out there running on stiff springs.

Originally Posted by Minor threat View Post
So there hasn't been much of an update so far other then upon further investigation & talking to the guys at Feal, you don't need to shims the rear shocks. It turns out I needed the rear shock lower mount inserts. The guys at Feal machined these and powder coated them for me and hadthem
in my hands within 1 week.

On a sad note, those inserts are still sitting on my desk because it's been way too cold to work in an unheated garage. On top of that, we just had the blizzard roll though the NE yesterday, so there has been no progress on the car completion front. Weather forecast won't be above freezing through the weekend so the snow / ice won't be melting anytime soon, which means the car remains on jackstands for at least another 2 weeks.
We wait with bated breath. Why can't you NE guys get some global warming up there? I rocked the track all winter down here.
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Old 03-22-2017, 06:08 AM
  #27  
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I picked up a set of fortune auto coilovers offering good contingency support for NASA racers and time trialers. I got them in 8k / 6k. They recently came out with a generation 6 design with some nice improvements. The ride quality and handling on the street on street tires seem to be good and very good (respectively). I am hitting VIR this weekend and will make a more detailed thread at that time.


Why did I go with fortune?


Good warranty.
Assembled in my state (Virginia).
Inexpensive rebuilds and revalves.
Good NASA contingency .
Good price.
Good reviews from friends and competitors.


I think Feal is very competent and could very well be a better performing coilover, but I'm giving Fortune Auto a try and will report back.
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:30 AM
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I will be interested in your feedback.

The stock R3 suspension is perfectly capable for my track use (I am by far the limiting factor) but is a bit harsh & busy on the street.

I was attracted to the Ohlins by the promise of ride quality+track ability, but Steve's experience with the seeming spring rate mis-match and strange behavior at the limits have me scared off.

The few times/yr I go to the track it is on 200TW tires.
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:35 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by acroy View Post
I will be interested in your feedback.

The stock R3 suspension is perfectly capable for my track use (I am by far the limiting factor) but is a bit harsh & busy on the street.

I was attracted to the Ohlins by the promise of ride quality+track ability, but Steve's experience with the seeming spring rate mis-match and strange behavior at the limits have me scared off.

The few times/yr I go to the track it is on 200TW tires.
I too am interested in his results.

If the R3 suspension is more capable than you are, Ohlins coilovers will be too. They are fantastic on the street, and more competent on the track than the R3's setup. I am looking for the last 10% of performance on 100TW tires, which means I am pushing them well beyond their design envelope. I need stiffer springs, but don't want to go there with this car. I have created these "problems" for myself. If you are tracking your car on 200TW tires a few times per year, you will not necessarily run into the limits of the suspension, unless you are over-driving the car.

We should find some time for you to drive my car for comparison to yours. That experience should tell you what you need to know.

Next time you are headed to MSR, be sure to let me know. I am an HPDE instructor with Apex, and I am an MSR member.
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Old 03-22-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dallas View Post
The Ohlins setup is more or less dialed in now, but it took a long time and a lot of frustration (and money) to get it there--especially since the car was doing the opposite of what it should be doing, accorded to my beer-addled brain.

I think the bump stops are the answer. I believe the rear rides at least one of them under nearly all power-down scenarios, which makes the rear want to step out at unpredictable times. I believe a little more rear spring would solve that.

In my opinion, the 2.0 spring rate ratio is a really strange choice for a car that was designed for about 1.4. At 2.0, the front axle acts like a fulcrum, and the rear bounces and moves too freely. It makes me wonder if Ohlins actually tested this setup on an RX-8, or if they just pushed it out on a theoretical basis.

The bottom line is, I am faster on Ohlins R&T after much fine tuning, but it never feels right, and I am always reluctant to trust it. I drive on faith a lot more than I ever did before.


My swift sport springs feel like this when going over bumps. I am running stock shocks and stock sway bars. I was redoing the car and didn't want to spend a lot of money in suspension yet. so I threw on some swift springs during the black Friday special and re-used the stock shocks. I could definitely use more spring rate but its ok for now. But you used the same verbage I would have used to describe my set up. It's like 207lbs front and 129lbs rear (1.6).


my rx7 I run 8/6 for a street car and like this rate a lot. for racing I would up the rate perhaps a little more in that car. similar suspension to the 8 though.
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Old 03-22-2017, 04:13 PM
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Does no one here have the stock R3 spring rates somewhere?? Would be really interesting to compare Mazda's (ostensible) best shot at a street/track balance against the reputable coilover kits!
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:20 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by IamFodi View Post
Does no one here have the stock R3 spring rates somewhere?? Would be really interesting to compare Mazda's (ostensible) best shot at a street/track balance against the reputable coilover kits!
Even though it is academic to me, I have looked high and low for that information and have never found it presented as verified data.

What I can tell you, from other information I have found on other Mazda cars, is their idea of a "hard" suspension is 10% stiffer than "sport" across the board.

I know you want hard data, so this isn't terribly useful to you, but it is probably safe to assume the R3 rates are 172F / 124R.
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Dallas View Post
I too am interested in his results.

If the R3 suspension is more capable than you are, Ohlins coilovers will be too. They are fantastic on the street, and more competent on the track than the R3's setup. I am looking for the last 10% of performance on 100TW tires, which means I am pushing them well beyond their design envelope. I need stiffer springs, but don't want to go there with this car. I have created these "problems" for myself. If you are tracking your car on 200TW tires a few times per year, you will not necessarily run into the limits of the suspension, unless you are over-driving the car.

We should find some time for you to drive my car for comparison to yours. That experience should tell you what you need to know.

Next time you are headed to MSR, be sure to let me know. I am an HPDE instructor with Apex, and I am an MSR member.
Thanks for the feedback & suggestions!
If I make it down to MSR I will certainly let you know.
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Old 11-30-2017, 05:59 PM
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Bumping this thread because I am near to picking up a new to me 2010 RX8 in mid december.

I pulled the trigger on Feal Coilovers from Goodwin Racing.

Now I am thinking the rates they are specc'ed at on their site seem a bit soft, however I truly don't have much experience with this chassis and come from the miata world.

My miata has had OEM, Tokico Blues on drop springs (Terrible) Bilstein coilover conversions, Buddy club coilovers on swift springs with 9K front 7k rear rates (Handled on rails but sorely lacked rear stroke/ droop travel) and no on Konis...

I steered my friend towards Feal suspension on his WRX and can say they are nice riding, and the damping range actually changes the shock behavior in a noticeable way.

So this is why I am happy to go with feal.

I digress, This RX8 is to be my daily driver, and so I also don't want to make the car unbearable for the daily drive.

Soo, more feedback with that brand on your cars with spring rates would be great!

I am in works of having the guys at Goodwin to try and order for me a pair of swift helper springs with a higher than nothing rate so to help the shock extend when the wheel becomes unloaded.

Anyways, thats my blurb, for now.
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:30 PM
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I run 9/6 on my ohlins dfv and they ride nice and handle well. Pretty good spring rate IMO. they work at all speeds IMO. work well in autox as well. I am running them with stock sways front and rear.
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:08 AM
  #36  
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Still think 9k/7k dialed in with an adjustable front bar is the ticket
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Old 12-01-2017, 09:42 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by etikoner View Post
Bumping this thread because I am near to picking up a new to me 2010 RX8 in mid december.

I pulled the trigger on Feal Coilovers from Goodwin Racing.

Now I am thinking the rates they are specc'ed at on their site seem a bit soft, however I truly don't have much experience with this chassis and come from the miata world.

My miata has had OEM, Tokico Blues on drop springs (Terrible) Bilstein coilover conversions, Buddy club coilovers on swift springs with 9K front 7k rear rates (Handled on rails but sorely lacked rear stroke/ droop travel) and no on Konis...

I steered my friend towards Feal suspension on his WRX and can say they are nice riding, and the damping range actually changes the shock behavior in a noticeable way.

So this is why I am happy to go with feal.

I digress, This RX8 is to be my daily driver, and so I also don't want to make the car unbearable for the daily drive.

Soo, more feedback with that brand on your cars with spring rates would be great!

I am in works of having the guys at Goodwin to try and order for me a pair of swift helper springs with a higher than nothing rate so to help the shock extend when the wheel becomes unloaded.

Anyways, thats my blurb, for now.
If you bought the coilovers with 6K / 4K springs, they will feel similar to Bilstein PSS / PSS9 coilovers. That is definitely on the softer side for track work, but certainly doable for the casual track day participant. Feal makes a road race version with stiffer springs and more digressive valving.

My RX-8's Ohlins have 8K / 5K springs, and I could definitely use more spring on the track, but I'm not willing to give up street comfort in that car, so I live with the compromise.

On my Miata, I run 10K / 6.5K springs and feel like it is also a bit under-sprung. I may bump up to 12K / 8K for next season. However, I am not one of those who likes to run allthespringrates, as has become so popular of late. A lot of Miata guys I know are running 16K / 10K, which is nuts IMHO. I like to feel the car pitch and roll a bit, so I know what my inputs are doing. Turning it into a go-kart may be fast on the lap timer, but it isn't very rewarding to me.
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:56 PM
  #38  
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I must be off the deep end on my RX8 then ...
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Old 12-01-2017, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by etikoner View Post

I am in works of having the guys at Goodwin to try and order for me a pair of swift helper springs with a higher than nothing rate so to help the shock extend when the wheel becomes unloaded.
If I were to do it all over again, I think I'd design around having 2" of droop travel in the rear (which gives a spring rate of 450 lbs/in or 8K) and tune the front to match (which I'd start at 672 lbs/in or 12K).

Then from there, bar appropriately. Probably need some hefty bars to do this (I think a Hotchkis front bar near or at full stiff) and tune the rear bar appropriately. Smaller is better for the rear, at least until a clutch diff goes in, then you can consider adding more rear bar if the balance isn't there. I'd start with something like a stiff Miata sway bar, instead of getting a RX-8 rear bar, which might be too stiff. The amount of bar you need depends on the tires you intend to run (chances are, if you're running a lot of really sticky tire (think 275 Hoosier A7s) you'll need all the spring and bar you can get).

The problem with using tenders is as soon as the tender is open, it significantly reduces the roll stiffness at that end of the car. It really depends on how the suspension is tuned, however. My suspension has tenders that are closed until the car starts to roll, or encounters a dip. I find that it turns in very well, but it has an understeer bias steady-state.

With that being said, because the tender is so critical to the steady-state balance of the car, the rear bar has a substantial effect (basically directly controls the weight on the inside tire, so long as the main spring rate is significantly greater than the tender and main spring rate).

/rant
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Old 12-01-2017, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8 View Post
I must be off the deep end on my RX8 then ...
9K / 7K is off the deep end? Sounds like a good natural frequency for autoX with a reasonable spring rate for a lighter car to me.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:12 PM
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No that’s what I recommended for guys like you who want something that flops around like a fish out of water ...

Just joking though, counterplay to your go kart comment. I was referring to the “supposedly high” Miata rates you mentioned. Though you have to also consider that the NA and NB chassis have a lower spring MR than the NC/RX8. That’s a key point that the percentage factor you were recommending at one time doesn’t take into account. That was one of my key arguements about why that idea is less than ideal (trying to be nice about it ). Due to the calculations requiring values to be mathematically squared etc the results for ideal rate combinations aren’t linear.

I know people using high rates like that on the NB quite successfully and it’s maybe not as “stiff” as you think. There are other factors involved.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:23 PM
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Just pointing out that I have two custom speedway style front swaybar setups for sale, one of which includes the three largest of four available wall thicknesses, for maximum front bar tuning ability. I had to make new front bar setup to have more inboard clearance for 10”+ width high offset wheels that I’ll be using going forward. I also incorporated roller bearings on the new one to eliminated urethane D-style pivot bushing friction
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:28 PM
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team is right for ride quality. if you set the car up for a flat ride you will have a smaller front and rear spring split.

you probably want to be around a frequency of 10% or so higher in the rear from the front.

If you set the car up like this and leave the swaybars you will get oversteer, so to balance it out you throw on a stiffer front bar to balance the car out.

This may be ideal if you are going to set the car up front scratch, for me I wanted to use the stock springs that came with Ohlins and they tuned the spring rates to the stock sway bars. This isn't ideal for ride comfort, but they didn't want to supply a good ride quality spring rate for flat ride and leave you with some oversteer which could hurt the general public. so I understand their viewpoint of doing what they did.

Very high spring rates with no flat ride, rides horribly.

I like softer spring rates for the street but you need spring rate increases with grippier tires and rougher tracks which could bottom the suspension. 9/7 is a good pick for a dual set up.

Last edited by lOOkatme; 12-01-2017 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 12-02-2017, 12:59 PM
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^^Deleted that reply due to misreading your post/intention
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8 View Post
Still think 9k/7k dialed in with an adjustable front bar is the ticket
How big on the bar? I was planning on putting a front bar on at the same time as my 9/7k fortunes and I see a couple options for ots 32mm hollow bars: progress (6.35mm wall) and racing beat (4.7625mm wall). The biggest I'll probably go for rubber is a 17x10 with 245 or 255 200tw (though the first set will most likely be 17x9 with 235mm).

Car is currently stock until after its first track event this weekend.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by eyeguy View Post
How big on the bar? I was planning on putting a front bar on at the same time as my 9/7k fortunes and I see a couple options for ots 32mm hollow bars: progress (6.35mm wall) and racing beat (4.7625mm wall). The biggest I'll probably go for rubber is a 17x10 with 245 or 255 200tw (though the first set will most likely be 17x9 with 235mm).

Car is currently stock until after its first track event this weekend.
Hotchkis has a big front bar, too
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:44 PM
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Nobody can say for sure because ultimately vehicle weight, f/r balance, shock valving, tire grip characteristics, etc. all factor in. I would guess 3/16” or 1/4” wall thickness as a starting point though.

The best bet is always a speedway style bar to allow maximum tuning flexibility

I seem to be one of the few people who goes that way though ...



.

Last edited by TeamRX8; 12-11-2017 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:48 PM
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So a bit of a thread revival but been researching some coilovers options and Feal was something I was looking at.

Any updates for you guys who have tried them? My car is not my DD so im not worried about how it rides on the street from from what I have read these are what im looking for.
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Old 09-22-2018, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Fatti_8 View Post
So a bit of a thread revival but been researching some coilovers options and Feal was something I was looking at.

Any updates for you guys who have tried them? My car is not my DD so im not worried about how it rides on the street from from what I have read these are what im looking for.


beers
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:29 AM
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So i still can't comment on the Feals, having never run them, and not knowing anyone else who has ever run them... but there are lots of people who run Fortune Autos regionally and have had very positive experience with the Fortunes.

I've been running the Fortunes for 2 years doing autocross, time attack, and HPDE.

They have nice initial quality and (it appears) long-term durability. They haven't needed a rebuild. I am not easy on my suspension.
I've set two lap records and won many events, so they are fast.
They are comfortable on the street... more comfortable than my NC miata on stock springs and Konis.
They have easy adjustability and it WORKS. I can totally transform the car, and it was a huge help switching from rain to dry and back again this last weekend.
They have OUTSTANDING customer support. Fast and responsive.
Assembly and rebuilds are in VA, which is local to me. I can visit their shop if i desire.
Rebuilds are reasonably priced and are comprehensive.
If you do racing, time attack, or drifting, they have a BALLER contingency program.
They are easy to dial-in and inspire confidence out of the box. people with fancier and more expensive suspensions are struggling with all the bells and whistles, while i just hit the ground running.


Three wheeling on a harsh curb.
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