Feal 441 Coilovers Look Interesting
 

While researching suspension options for my NB Miata, I came across Feal as an option. Goodwin sells them, but they are also available from Feal's online store. Feal has an RX-8 fitment starting at $1400, of which I was not aware when I bought my Ohlins.

It appears you can specify any spring rate you want, and Odi will valve the shocks to match, with either street or race profiles, although he has off-the-shelf Street and Road Race versions available as well.

Odi, the owner, is supposedly actively involved in Formula Drift as a driver and suspension guru.

Feal coilovers appear to use the same Taiwanese shock bodies and other external bits as Stance/Powertrix/BC/Megan/KSport/OCrap, but are assembled with Swift springs and higher quality internals and valving. I think ISC and Fortune are similarly supposed to use a lot of the same externals, but have a reputation for actually being decent due to better other parts and valving.

Xida is the gold standard in the Miata world, so I will probably go that route with that car, but I tried to research Feal in Mazda applications as much as possible anyway. I found a couple of guys using them in Miatas on the track, and their reviews are very positive, with podium finishes to show for their efforts, but at least one eventually graduated to Xida. That seems to make them easily good enough for HPDE.

Otherwise, I found a lot of Subaru guys giving the typical worthless, "These shocks are awesome, and I am totally stanced and hellaslammed, and I don't even feel no bumps no mo yo!!1!" type reviews.

Anyway, anyone have any knowledge of Feal? Good stuff or more of the same?

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subscribed. i've been considering the fortune coilovers based on both street and track users reporting good longevity, decent ride quality, and good performance. they also have inexpensive, local (near richmond VA) rebuilds, and provide custom valving and shock dynos in the basic purchase.

would be interested if anyone has feedback of feal. the fortunes cost more than $300 for the swift upgrade.

I have not talked to anyone at Fortune to shed light on this, but the 500's dyno plots appear to identify the valving as sporty, but not really intended for road racing. The 510's low frequency damping and rebound looks much more appropriate, but they do not offer an OTS RX-8 fitment in the 510. That is not to say they won't make it for you. Surely, they will for an upcharge.

Feal's approach to shock tuning looks to be similar to FCM's, in that Odi consults with you about your intended usage, tire treadwear, etc. to determine spring rates and valving.

In looking at the NB Miata fitment, Feal's road race version dynos exhibit valving that is about halfway between Xida version 1 and version 2 shocks. That is pretty encouraging, considering the V1 is beloved in the Miata scene, and the V2 is beloved even more. I assume that translates to the RX-8 application.

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Just got off the phone with Feal and thought I'd share some info.


Rebuild $75 (bumpstops / boots not incl.)
Re-valve $50
Rebuild & re-valve (you guessed it) $125
Swift springs, pair (if you decide to change your rate) $170


Their off-the-shelf kit is 10k/6k, but this seems more understeer-biased than most kits. But perhaps with OEM swaybars and different bumpstops the balance wouldn't be too far off? I've been thinking more like 8k/6k or 10k/8k with stock bars...

Good info. Thanks for the update.

I know that more front spring vs. rear spring is supposed to bias handling more toward understeer, but that has not necessarily been my practical experience with this car, assuming published spring rates have been correct on my various setups. For example, the OEM front to rear ratio is about 1.4 on stock sways, which should indicate a moderate bias toward understeer. The Ohlins ratio of 2.0 should indicate massive understeer, but in my case, it created massive oversteer. My FCM consultation recommended a nearly 1.0 ratio, which was supposed to result in very slight oversteer. I am almost at a loss to explain it, although I do have some theories.

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Here are some RX-8 spring ratios to ponder.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...4478408f23.png

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And here is a shock dyno of the NA/NB Miata version of Feal's 441 Road Race coilover, courtesy of Goodwin.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...c2c1233926.jpg

That's some interesting data about spring rates. I've been pondering what kind of spring rates I want to run on my 8, and it's pretty obvious that there is no good consensus on the various aftermarket setups are.

My question is: How would you describe the oversteer? Does it occur at corner entry, mid, or on exit? Transitional loose or push is usually shocks or driver related.

While I've only had the time to play with alignment and bumpstops on my 8, I can tell this is already a sensitive chassis to changes, due to the camber gain of the front suspension in bump, and the high amount of anti-squat in the rear suspension. The baked-in suspension geometry of the car needs to be accounted for to determine expected oversteer/understeer bias.

I don't want to derail the thread too much with discussions of my setup, but I suppose spring rates are germane.

By massive oversteer, I mean oversteer under all conditions. I eventually got it under control by changing alignment settings and tire pressures, and by using very little rear bar. Now, it has a little mid to exit oversteer, but it is manageable, although my preference is for a little entry understeer and neutral mid and exit.

When I purchased the Ohlins, I expected to run a pretty large rear bar due to the published spring rates. At the time, I was running a Progress NC Miata front bar set on medium and a matching rear bar set on soft. That proved to be a poor expectation. That was way too much rear bar.

My previous setup had been Bilstein PSS9s with the same bars. It was very neutral, but the compression was not where I wanted it, the rebound adjuster was a joke, and I damaged the right rear, which necessitated a rebuild or a new setup. I chose Ohlins for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here.

Running on 100-200 TW tires and a fairly aggressive alignment, I started by setting the shock rebound appropriately by following Penske's setup guide. Then, I started to focus on handling. Massive oversteer everywhere. Over the next 6 months, I maxed out alignment settings, experimented with tires and tire pressures, experimented with rebound settings, and kept reducing the rear bar. Things smoothed out with an OEM NC Miata 11mm rear bar plus the other changes. In truth, I could probably just run no rear bar.

Anyway, I agree that this chassis is very sensitive to dynamic alignment, tire pressures, etc. My working theory is, that the spring rate in the rear of the Ohlins setup is low enough, and the bump travel short enough, that I am riding on the softer than average bump stops more than I realize, and that is what is causing the oversteer condition. Going up in rear spring rate by 1K may solve it due to factors outside of simple spring rate rules of thumb.

Perhaps that brings us to Feal's street rates and road race valving with my preferred TW tires, and perhaps Feal looks... Interesting.

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(Ugh, forum lost my post. Here's an abridged version, apologies if it seems a bit terse.)

I don't think that the rear bump stops are the issue. If so, the rear bar should have helped it, as it would keep the rear off the bump stops. The only way I could see the bump stops being a large factor is if they were already engaged at static ride height, or made out of hard urethane. An easy test would be to raise the car a half inch. If that helps, then the bump stops are a likely candidate.

My hypothesis is that the front is actually making a ton of grip due to perfectly optimized camber on the outside front tire. This is exacerbated from the high front to rear spring rate difference, as the front will transfer a larger amount of weight to the outside front, relative to the rear.

If my hypothesis is correct, reducing the front bar should lead to more understeer, or increasing it so much so that the front rolls much less. Reducing front camber would definitely fix the issue, but that's not the optimal situation. Increasing front rebound should also cause entry understeer, but it will also cause exit oversteer.

Feal's road race spring rates would be an interesting addition to the data set. My suspicion it is will be application-dependent, or something close to 800 lbs/in front and 600 lbs/in rear for a road race car with Hoosier R7s.

Interesting theory. I can see how you arrived there.

The Ohlins bump stops are relatively short, are made of some sort of micro-cell poly, and are softer than most. The rear Ohlins shocks are known to have less bump travel than some other designs, which is what led me down that line of thinking. I was actually pondering how to mount a GoPro back there to film the suspension in action to get an idea of what it is doing.

I can very easily soften the front bar a bit by moving from the medium to soft setting. Admittedly, the right way to approach these coilovers would have been to return to stock bars and work from there. I still have the stockers, so I can certainly do that. Although, keep in mind the Progress NC MX-5 bars I have would be considered medium stiffness in the RX-8 application.

FTR, my preferred tires for my HPDE habit are in the range of NT01s, R888s, RC-1s, RE71Rs, etc.

I agree that the Feal Road Race spring rates will be application dependent. From what I have read, Odi works on the consultation model, where he quizzes you about things like specific trim level, corner weights (if you know them), alignment settings, ride height, tire treadwear rating, sway bars, desired handling characteristics, etc.

Matt Carley in Baton Rouge has a set and his RX8 is gone after the flood so they're for sale last I heard. I'll let him know you guys are interested maybe he can chime in with thoughts. His were revalved for STX autocross use.

Yep, still up for grabs.

They are the road race version, Nathan here actually helped me determine spring rates of 10k/7k and valving. I used them for about 6 autocrosses, with the progress bar on medium and 255 RE71R and really enjoyed the performance and level of grip. Comfortable enough on the road, too.

If you'd like more info, let me know.

I was very tempted by those Feal coilovers when I was doing all of my research for my RX-8. I'm still kind of wishing I had gone with them instead of the Bilstein HD dampers and Swift springs. Not that I'm disappointed with what I have, but they did lower the car more than I wanted. Those Feals supposedly allow for stock ride height, so my 1/2 to 3/4" lowering would have been no problem. I may still end up going with Feals at some point. Definitely following this thread!

I talked with Feal, and they are investigating developing contingency programs for SCCA and NASA racing and time trial classes. perhaps somewhat along the lines of Fortune's SCCA and NASA contingency program. I'm hoping it gets put in place in time to get a kit before racing season starts!

Hey, dvalue, can you spare the time to write a detailed review? These coilovers seem to be exotic animals in the RX-8 world, so any information we can get will be appreciated.

Sub'd for updates. I was looking at Feal from my track car project that I'm working on building. I've seen a lot of positive feedback from Miata guys & honestly for the price I'm willing to take the gamble. Compared to the Ohlins I was initially looking at, I think the choose of spring rates along with a $1000 cheaper price rage make this decision even easier.

The only way I would consider Ohlins again for my 8 for track use is if I were to get the race kit from Goodwin. The spring rates on the R&T version are just too weird. The valving of the shocks is great, however.

Right now, I'm considering going up 1K in the rear with Goodwin's kit or changing to something else like Feal. I'm going to call Goodwin and Ohlins and Feal next week to discuss options.

Oh, reading your last post in the "KW or Ohlins or FCM" thread I thought you had it dialed in nicely on the Ohlins now . Did that change, or are you looking to go stiffer?

On spring rates, the FCM ratio is designed to work with a stiffer front to rear sway bar ratio than stock (so counter-acting the stiffer rear to front spring rates).

I can't explain the Ohlins spring ratio, or the behavior you are seeing. It is possible bump stops are the cause. The stock suspension is designed to ride on the bump stops under heavy load, and I believe they are the reason my FCM setup would transition to understeer as grip increased. I now have some slightly different spring rates and bump stops to try next year...

The Ohlins setup is more or less dialed in now, but it took a long time and a lot of frustration (and money) to get it there--especially since the car was doing the opposite of what it should be doing, accorded to my beer-addled brain.

I think the bump stops are the answer. I believe the rear rides at least one of them under nearly all power-down scenarios, which makes the rear want to step out at unpredictable times. I believe a little more rear spring would solve that.

In my opinion, the 2.0 spring rate ratio is a really strange choice for a car that was designed for about 1.4. At 2.0, the front axle acts like a fulcrum, and the rear bounces and moves too freely. It makes me wonder if Ohlins actually tested this setup on an RX-8, or if they just pushed it out on a theoretical basis.

The bottom line is, I am faster on Ohlins R&T after much fine tuning, but it never feels right, and I am always reluctant to trust it. I drive on faith a lot more than I ever did before.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

So I picked up the set of Feal coilovers from Dvalue (Thanks Matt) and sent them out to be rebuilt. The road race version have 10K front 7K rear Swift springs.

So the front went on without issue last weekend. The rears I started to install yesterday, but found I may need to shim the shock body at the bottom where it bolts to the hub. Without shims the shock body has 1/2" movement back & forth when the bottom bolt is tightened down.

After researching Goodwins site, they note that the Ohlins race setup using the Swift springs w/helper springs requires the shock to be shimmed at the bottom as well, so I have an email in to Feal to confirm.

Once these are mounted & corner balanced I'll post up a report. The 1st test & Tune day of the season is 3/26, so the season is quickly approaching here in the NE

I still have the stock bars on mine and I've had a fair amount of oversteer issues. Our local suspension guru (who knows how I prefer a neutral setup) tried to dial in the car as neutral as possible, but given that at least mine needs a very subtle but deliberate weight transfer on corner entry, I've had a few moments too many when the tail started wagging the dog in fairly close proximity to a wall.

Subbed for your pending review. Though I will not tracking my R3 as much as some of you guys, I still want something decent and if the Feals are as good or better than the Ohlins I was considering, it'll be nice to save a few hundred dollars.

So there hasn't been much of an update so far other then upon further investigation & talking to the guys at Feal, you don't need to shims the rear shocks. It turns out I needed the rear shock lower mount inserts. The guys at Feal machined these and powder coated them for me and hadthem
in my hands within 1 week.

On a sad note, those inserts are still sitting on my desk because it's been way too cold to work in an unheated garage. On top of that, we just had the blizzard roll though the NE yesterday, so there has been no progress on the car completion front. Weather forecast won't be above freezing through the weekend so the snow / ice won't be melting anytime soon, which means the car remains on jackstands for at least another 2 weeks.

I think I can make this decision easy for you.

1. If you value street performance and comfort over track performance, but still want a setup that is competent on the track if not pushed too hard, you cannot beat Ohlins. Ohlins makes springs that are ~3x the rate of the factory springs feel better (IMHO) than the factory setup, albeit in a "sporty" way vs. a "luxury" way. Track performance is quite good on 200+ TW tires if you don't push them beyond their design envelope. You can counteract their tendency to oversteer at the limits to some degree with a large front bar.

2. If you value track performance highly, and don't mind living with some discomfort on the street to attain that track performance, go with Feal. Some Feal coilovers are starting to show up on Miatas at the track, and they are performing very well out there. The ride is less than stellar on the street, but certainly better than most of what is out there running on stiff springs.

We wait with bated breath. Why can't you NE guys get some global warming up there? I rocked the track all winter down here. :ylsuper:

I picked up a set of fortune auto coilovers offering good contingency support for NASA racers and time trialers. I got them in 8k / 6k. They recently came out with a generation 6 design with some nice improvements. The ride quality and handling on the street on street tires seem to be good and very good (respectively). I am hitting VIR this weekend and will make a more detailed thread at that time.


Why did I go with fortune?


Good warranty.
Assembled in my state (Virginia).
Inexpensive rebuilds and revalves.
Good NASA contingency .
Good price.
Good reviews from friends and competitors.


I think Feal is very competent and could very well be a better performing coilover, but I'm giving Fortune Auto a try and will report back.

I will be interested in your feedback.

The stock R3 suspension is perfectly capable for my track use (I am by far the limiting factor) but is a bit harsh & busy on the street.

I was attracted to the Ohlins by the promise of ride quality+track ability, but Steve's experience with the seeming spring rate mis-match and strange behavior at the limits have me scared off.

The few times/yr I go to the track it is on 200TW tires.

I too am interested in his results.

If the R3 suspension is more capable than you are, Ohlins coilovers will be too. They are fantastic on the street, and more competent on the track than the R3's setup. I am looking for the last 10% of performance on 100TW tires, which means I am pushing them well beyond their design envelope. I need stiffer springs, but don't want to go there with this car. I have created these "problems" for myself. If you are tracking your car on 200TW tires a few times per year, you will not necessarily run into the limits of the suspension, unless you are over-driving the car.

We should find some time for you to drive my car for comparison to yours. That experience should tell you what you need to know.

Next time you are headed to MSR, be sure to let me know. I am an HPDE instructor with Apex, and I am an MSR member.

My swift sport springs feel like this when going over bumps. I am running stock shocks and stock sway bars. I was redoing the car and didn't want to spend a lot of money in suspension yet. so I threw on some swift springs during the black Friday special and re-used the stock shocks. I could definitely use more spring rate but its ok for now. But you used the same verbage I would have used to describe my set up. It's like 207lbs front and 129lbs rear (1.6).


my rx7 I run 8/6 for a street car and like this rate a lot. for racing I would up the rate perhaps a little more in that car. similar suspension to the 8 though.

Does no one here have the stock R3 spring rates somewhere?? Would be really interesting to compare Mazda's (ostensible) best shot at a street/track balance against the reputable coilover kits!

Even though it is academic to me, I have looked high and low for that information and have never found it presented as verified data.

What I can tell you, from other information I have found on other Mazda cars, is their idea of a "hard" suspension is 10% stiffer than "sport" across the board.

I know you want hard data, so this isn't terribly useful to you, but it is probably safe to assume the R3 rates are 172F / 124R.

Thanks for the feedback & suggestions! :icon_tup:
If I make it down to MSR I will certainly let you know.

Bumping this thread because I am near to picking up a new to me 2010 RX8 in mid december.

I pulled the trigger on Feal Coilovers from Goodwin Racing.

Now I am thinking the rates they are specc'ed at on their site seem a bit soft, however I truly don't have much experience with this chassis and come from the miata world.

My miata has had OEM, Tokico Blues on drop springs (Terrible) Bilstein coilover conversions, Buddy club coilovers on swift springs with 9K front 7k rear rates (Handled on rails but sorely lacked rear stroke/ droop travel) and no on Konis...

I steered my friend towards Feal suspension on his WRX and can say they are nice riding, and the damping range actually changes the shock behavior in a noticeable way.

So this is why I am happy to go with feal.

I digress, This RX8 is to be my daily driver, and so I also don't want to make the car unbearable for the daily drive.

Soo, more feedback with that brand on your cars with spring rates would be great!

I am in works of having the guys at Goodwin to try and order for me a pair of swift helper springs with a higher than nothing rate so to help the shock extend when the wheel becomes unloaded.

Anyways, thats my blurb, for now. :lol:

I run 9/6 on my ohlins dfv and they ride nice and handle well. Pretty good spring rate IMO. they work at all speeds IMO. work well in autox as well. I am running them with stock sways front and rear.

Still think 9k/7k dialed in with an adjustable front bar is the ticket

If you bought the coilovers with 6K / 4K springs, they will feel similar to Bilstein PSS / PSS9 coilovers. That is definitely on the softer side for track work, but certainly doable for the casual track day participant. Feal makes a road race version with stiffer springs and more digressive valving.

My RX-8's Ohlins have 8K / 5K springs, and I could definitely use more spring on the track, but I'm not willing to give up street comfort in that car, so I live with the compromise.

On my Miata, I run 10K / 6.5K springs and feel like it is also a bit under-sprung. I may bump up to 12K / 8K for next season. However, I am not one of those who likes to run allthespringrates, as has become so popular of late. A lot of Miata guys I know are running 16K / 10K, which is nuts IMHO. I like to feel the car pitch and roll a bit, so I know what my inputs are doing. Turning it into a go-kart may be fast on the lap timer, but it isn't very rewarding to me.

I must be off the deep end on my RX8 then ... ;)

If I were to do it all over again, I think I'd design around having 2" of droop travel in the rear (which gives a spring rate of 450 lbs/in or 8K) and tune the front to match (which I'd start at 672 lbs/in or 12K).

Then from there, bar appropriately. Probably need some hefty bars to do this (I think a Hotchkis front bar near or at full stiff) and tune the rear bar appropriately. Smaller is better for the rear, at least until a clutch diff goes in, then you can consider adding more rear bar if the balance isn't there. I'd start with something like a stiff Miata sway bar, instead of getting a RX-8 rear bar, which might be too stiff. The amount of bar you need depends on the tires you intend to run (chances are, if you're running a lot of really sticky tire (think 275 Hoosier A7s) you'll need all the spring and bar you can get).

The problem with using tenders is as soon as the tender is open, it significantly reduces the roll stiffness at that end of the car. It really depends on how the suspension is tuned, however. My suspension has tenders that are closed until the car starts to roll, or encounters a dip. I find that it turns in very well, but it has an understeer bias steady-state.

With that being said, because the tender is so critical to the steady-state balance of the car, the rear bar has a substantial effect (basically directly controls the weight on the inside tire, so long as the main spring rate is significantly greater than the tender and main spring rate).

/rant

9K / 7K is off the deep end? Sounds like a good natural frequency for autoX with a reasonable spring rate for a lighter car to me.

No that’s what I recommended for guys like you who want something that flops around like a fish out of water ...

Just joking though, counterplay to your go kart comment. I was referring to the “supposedly high” Miata rates you mentioned. Though you have to also consider that the NA and NB chassis have a lower spring MR than the NC/RX8. That’s a key point that the percentage factor you were recommending at one time doesn’t take into account. That was one of my key arguements about why that idea is less than ideal (trying to be nice about it :) ). Due to the calculations requiring values to be mathematically squared etc the results for ideal rate combinations aren’t linear.

I know people using high rates like that on the NB quite successfully and it’s maybe not as “stiff” as you think. There are other factors involved.

Just pointing out that I have two custom speedway style front swaybar setups for sale, one of which includes the three largest of four available wall thicknesses, for maximum front bar tuning ability. I had to make new front bar setup to have more inboard clearance for 10”+ width high offset wheels that I’ll be using going forward. I also incorporated roller bearings on the new one to eliminated urethane D-style pivot bushing friction ;)

team is right for ride quality. if you set the car up for a flat ride you will have a smaller front and rear spring split.

you probably want to be around a frequency of 10% or so higher in the rear from the front.

If you set the car up like this and leave the swaybars you will get oversteer, so to balance it out you throw on a stiffer front bar to balance the car out.

This may be ideal if you are going to set the car up front scratch, for me I wanted to use the stock springs that came with Ohlins and they tuned the spring rates to the stock sway bars. This isn't ideal for ride comfort, but they didn't want to supply a good ride quality spring rate for flat ride and leave you with some oversteer which could hurt the general public. so I understand their viewpoint of doing what they did.

Very high spring rates with no flat ride, rides horribly.

I like softer spring rates for the street but you need spring rate increases with grippier tires and rougher tracks which could bottom the suspension. 9/7 is a good pick for a dual set up.

^^Deleted that reply due to misreading your post/intention

How big on the bar? I was planning on putting a front bar on at the same time as my 9/7k fortunes and I see a couple options for ots 32mm hollow bars: progress (6.35mm wall) and racing beat (4.7625mm wall). The biggest I'll probably go for rubber is a 17x10 with 245 or 255 200tw (though the first set will most likely be 17x9 with 235mm).

Car is currently stock until after its first track event this weekend.

Hotchkis has a big front bar, too

Nobody can say for sure because ultimately vehicle weight, f/r balance, shock valving, tire grip characteristics, etc. all factor in. I would guess 3/16” or 1/4” wall thickness as a starting point though.

The best bet is always a speedway style bar to allow maximum tuning flexibility

I seem to be one of the few people who goes that way though ...



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So a bit of a thread revival but been researching some coilovers options and Feal was something I was looking at.

Any updates for you guys who have tried them? My car is not my DD so im not worried about how it rides on the street from from what I have read these are what im looking for.

:)

beers :beer:

So i still can't comment on the Feals, having never run them, and not knowing anyone else who has ever run them... but there are lots of people who run Fortune Autos regionally and have had very positive experience with the Fortunes.

I've been running the Fortunes for 2 years doing autocross, time attack, and HPDE.

They have nice initial quality and (it appears) long-term durability. They haven't needed a rebuild. I am not easy on my suspension.
I've set two lap records and won many events, so they are fast.
They are comfortable on the street... more comfortable than my NC miata on stock springs and Konis.
They have easy adjustability and it WORKS. I can totally transform the car, and it was a huge help switching from rain to dry and back again this last weekend.
They have OUTSTANDING customer support. Fast and responsive.
Assembly and rebuilds are in VA, which is local to me. I can visit their shop if i desire.
Rebuilds are reasonably priced and are comprehensive.
If you do racing, time attack, or drifting, they have a BALLER contingency program.
They are easy to dial-in and inspire confidence out of the box. people with fancier and more expensive suspensions are struggling with all the bells and whistles, while i just hit the ground running.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...a9382e1d94.jpg
Three wheeling on a harsh curb.