Do any of you use a gt wing for track days/ competition
02-05-2009, 07:31 AM
#26
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I was wondering if any of you guys use gt wings for track days / competition im not sure about competition use do to regulations.
But for those who do use gt wings for track days. Have you noticed any sort of improvement in handling with the wing as opposed to without.
But for those who do use gt wings for track days. Have you noticed any sort of improvement in handling with the wing as opposed to without.
Not required. Only work at high speeds which require huge grip and VERY custom suspension. Add drag at high speeds. Save your money and buy tires.
Listen to experience. If you want one because it "looks cool"---buy it. If you want it to go faster, you will not find measurable gains.
Look at the Koni Challenge Cars with more hp and more grip than your car (not to mention the race fields can include some of the best drivers in the U.S.). Look at the wings (or lack of).
http://www.grand-am.com/koni/multimedia/photos.cfm
02-05-2009, 12:22 PM
#27
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Dude I just said, on post #23, that I saw a guy gain 4 seconds by adding a wing to his S2000 at the track...and he's a good driver, so it wasn't "accidental".
The more I read up, the more I realize that wings make a HUGE difference...that's why there's strict rules on what wings you can use, even for the competition you mentioned above: http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/KONI09rulesforweb2.pdf
The more I read up, the more I realize that wings make a HUGE difference...that's why there's strict rules on what wings you can use, even for the competition you mentioned above: http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/KONI09rulesforweb2.pdf
02-05-2009, 12:54 PM
#28
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Dude I just said, on post #23, that I saw a guy gain 4 seconds by adding a wing to his S2000 at the track...and he's a good driver, so it wasn't "accidental".
The more I read up, the more I realize that wings make a HUGE difference...that's why there's strict rules on what wings you can use, even for the competition you mentioned above: http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/KONI09rulesforweb2.pdf
The more I read up, the more I realize that wings make a HUGE difference...that's why there's strict rules on what wings you can use, even for the competition you mentioned above: http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/KONI09rulesforweb2.pdf
And depending on the track and the setup on the wing it's very possible that the wing would end up slowing you down more than it would allow you to speed up.
02-05-2009, 02:03 PM
#29
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Okay think what you like...he had stock suspension:
"S2KI Username: 949Racing
Real Name: Emilio
Speedventures Alias: ?
Speedventures Car Number: 949
T-Shirt: med
Class:street
Total Points: 5
Points Breakdown:
1.5 = Star Spec
1.0 = 255/40/17 fronts
.25 = cat back exhaust
2.25 = level 2 wing"
"S2KI Username: 949Racing
Real Name: Emilio
Speedventures Alias: ?
Speedventures Car Number: 949
T-Shirt: med
Class:street
Total Points: 5
Points Breakdown:
1.5 = Star Spec
1.0 = 255/40/17 fronts
.25 = cat back exhaust
2.25 = level 2 wing"
02-05-2009, 02:09 PM
#30
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I am certain SCCA doesnt allow them, except in limited classes.
GT wings are beneficial, even at 45mph, not the knock off ones though.
If you do your research and check on camfer, and surface area, you can do some real easy math to figure out rough amount of DF your going to get out of the wing.
A true gt wing looks like an airplane wing upside down with a curl upwards. the "GT" wings you often find online that are huge provide some downforce. mainly because you have to put them at a 30degree angle, but this causes A LOT of drag due to turbulence. these "GT" wings mostly are just a flat peice of aluminum, sometime with a double deck to straighten things out.
If you can get away with it, I know Hamman has a variable inclination GT wing that decreases angle as speed goes up, you might wnat to check that out. But to anyone who say that a wing is useless......good luck in a sweeper. and our mazdaspeed wing does help some, if you increas the angle of it. the factory arch does nothing, maybe at 80mph it does
In all honesty, studies have shown a very inconspicous rear undertray diffuser is 3 times more effective at providing downforce than a wing.
check that out before the wing
some info about myself: I just left working for Learjet in Kansas for working out here in Virginia at the NASA/ Langley research park center
GT wings are beneficial, even at 45mph, not the knock off ones though.
If you do your research and check on camfer, and surface area, you can do some real easy math to figure out rough amount of DF your going to get out of the wing.
A true gt wing looks like an airplane wing upside down with a curl upwards. the "GT" wings you often find online that are huge provide some downforce. mainly because you have to put them at a 30degree angle, but this causes A LOT of drag due to turbulence. these "GT" wings mostly are just a flat peice of aluminum, sometime with a double deck to straighten things out.
If you can get away with it, I know Hamman has a variable inclination GT wing that decreases angle as speed goes up, you might wnat to check that out. But to anyone who say that a wing is useless......good luck in a sweeper. and our mazdaspeed wing does help some, if you increas the angle of it. the factory arch does nothing, maybe at 80mph it does
In all honesty, studies have shown a very inconspicous rear undertray diffuser is 3 times more effective at providing downforce than a wing.
check that out before the wing
some info about myself: I just left working for Learjet in Kansas for working out here in Virginia at the NASA/ Langley research park center
Last edited by notorque; 02-05-2009 at 02:12 PM.
02-05-2009, 02:18 PM
#32
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Not required. Only work at high speeds which require huge grip and VERY custom suspension. Add drag at high speeds. Save your money and buy tires.
Listen to experience. If you want one because it "looks cool"---buy it. If you want it to go faster, you will not find measurable gains.
Look at the Koni Challenge Cars with more hp and more grip than your car (not to mention the race fields can include some of the best drivers in the U.S.). Look at the wings (or lack of).
http://www.grand-am.com/koni/multimedia/photos.cfm
Listen to experience. If you want one because it "looks cool"---buy it. If you want it to go faster, you will not find measurable gains.
Look at the Koni Challenge Cars with more hp and more grip than your car (not to mention the race fields can include some of the best drivers in the U.S.). Look at the wings (or lack of).
http://www.grand-am.com/koni/multimedia/photos.cfm
you talking about theses shopping cart handles?
02-06-2009, 06:37 AM
#33
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Dude I just said, on post #23, that I saw a guy gain 4 seconds by adding a wing to his S2000 at the track...and he's a good driver, so it wasn't "accidental".
The more I read up, the more I realize that wings make a HUGE difference...that's why there's strict rules on what wings you can use, even for the competition you mentioned above: http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/KONI09rulesforweb2.pdf
The more I read up, the more I realize that wings make a HUGE difference...that's why there's strict rules on what wings you can use, even for the competition you mentioned above: http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/KONI09rulesforweb2.pdf
So we all know that the big, fancy, expensive race cars might have rear wings and presumably they provide great benefit therefore they work. Right? Of course they work. However I think we are talking about a Mazda RX8 correct?
I can't speak for your S2000 buddy but I have just recently measure WITH and WITHOUT rear wing (MSpeed 2 piece wing to be exact) at Daytona and found ZERO gains. Zero.
Let me talk about this a bit because I think the original question that started this thread was from a guy who wants to know if adding a big wing to his street car will make a noticable difference. I'll go out on a limb here and say that judging by the nature of his question, my bet is that this person hasn't logged many miles on a road course. This is how I'm interpreting the original post of this thread.
My #30 runs shock potentiometers and a very robust data acquistion system. If you don't know what this means then just think of it as a really expensive way to collect lots of data. Lots and lots. At 143 mph terminal at Daytona last month we did an experiment with this MSpeed rear wing. We tested the car with and without the wing. Zero difference in either terminal speed or rear ride height. Now one could argue that the AOA was incorrect or Daytona is a bad place to crank downforce into your wing but the fact of the matter was there were ZERO gains or losses.
You guys may be interested to know that our nose (your nose) rasied up 3/8" at speed. Our shock pots. told us this.
Therefore, I am very certain that adding a big nasty wing to an RX8 will show little to no gain.
As for your buddy with the S2000----dude, 4 seconds is huge. Too huge. You don't find 4 seconds in any change. I would ask your buddy to validate this because something doesn't sound quite right. It may be that his car handled very improper and the addition of the rear wing helped get the car back to where it should be.
My whole point is this----Don't get a wing if you're new to open-track driving and certainly consider that you have to MEASURE something to confirm it works. Gains are so small that you'll need a very accurate method to record and compare this info.
Respectfully submitted,
Eric Meyer
02-06-2009, 10:15 AM
#34
So we all know that the big, fancy, expensive race cars might have rear wings and presumably they provide great benefit therefore they work. Right? Of course they work. However I think we are talking about a Mazda RX8 correct?
I can't speak for your S2000 buddy but I have just recently measure WITH and WITHOUT rear wing (MSpeed 2 piece wing to be exact) at Daytona and found ZERO gains. Zero.
Let me talk about this a bit because I think the original question that started this thread was from a guy who wants to know if adding a big wing to his street car will make a noticable difference. I'll go out on a limb here and say that judging by the nature of his question, my bet is that this person hasn't logged many miles on a road course. This is how I'm interpreting the original post of this thread.
My #30 runs shock potentiometers and a very robust data acquistion system. If you don't know what this means then just think of it as a really expensive way to collect lots of data. Lots and lots. At 143 mph terminal at Daytona last month we did an experiment with this MSpeed rear wing. We tested the car with and without the wing. Zero difference in either terminal speed or rear ride height. Now one could argue that the AOA was incorrect or Daytona is a bad place to crank downforce into your wing but the fact of the matter was there were ZERO gains or losses.
You guys may be interested to know that our nose (your nose) rasied up 3/8" at speed. Our shock pots. told us this.
Therefore, I am very certain that adding a big nasty wing to an RX8 will show little to no gain.
As for your buddy with the S2000----dude, 4 seconds is huge. Too huge. You don't find 4 seconds in any change. I would ask your buddy to validate this because something doesn't sound quite right. It may be that his car handled very improper and the addition of the rear wing helped get the car back to where it should be.
My whole point is this----Don't get a wing if you're new to open-track driving and certainly consider that you have to MEASURE something to confirm it works. Gains are so small that you'll need a very accurate method to record and compare this info.
Respectfully submitted,
Eric Meyer
I can't speak for your S2000 buddy but I have just recently measure WITH and WITHOUT rear wing (MSpeed 2 piece wing to be exact) at Daytona and found ZERO gains. Zero.
Let me talk about this a bit because I think the original question that started this thread was from a guy who wants to know if adding a big wing to his street car will make a noticable difference. I'll go out on a limb here and say that judging by the nature of his question, my bet is that this person hasn't logged many miles on a road course. This is how I'm interpreting the original post of this thread.
My #30 runs shock potentiometers and a very robust data acquistion system. If you don't know what this means then just think of it as a really expensive way to collect lots of data. Lots and lots. At 143 mph terminal at Daytona last month we did an experiment with this MSpeed rear wing. We tested the car with and without the wing. Zero difference in either terminal speed or rear ride height. Now one could argue that the AOA was incorrect or Daytona is a bad place to crank downforce into your wing but the fact of the matter was there were ZERO gains or losses.
You guys may be interested to know that our nose (your nose) rasied up 3/8" at speed. Our shock pots. told us this.
Therefore, I am very certain that adding a big nasty wing to an RX8 will show little to no gain.
As for your buddy with the S2000----dude, 4 seconds is huge. Too huge. You don't find 4 seconds in any change. I would ask your buddy to validate this because something doesn't sound quite right. It may be that his car handled very improper and the addition of the rear wing helped get the car back to where it should be.
My whole point is this----Don't get a wing if you're new to open-track driving and certainly consider that you have to MEASURE something to confirm it works. Gains are so small that you'll need a very accurate method to record and compare this info.
Respectfully submitted,
Eric Meyer
The nose lift, that is a stock bumper, correct? Thoughts on the MS bumper and if the whole package, rear underspoiler and side skirts would make much difference?
02-06-2009, 11:29 AM
#35
Button Willow... isn't that the fastest track in the West?
Anyhow you can get to 124 mph around the big curve and can do 115 through several Chicanes plus some long straights.
At High speed they work.
Now try that at the street of willows and you will see less of an improvement.
Anyhow you can get to 124 mph around the big curve and can do 115 through several Chicanes plus some long straights.
At High speed they work.
Now try that at the street of willows and you will see less of an improvement.
02-06-2009, 11:41 AM
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If so, would a front splitter and under tray help in aleviating this. From past experience in other cars, positive pressure under the nose, rolls to the rear and makes the car "squirrely" since you have a high quality data logger, are you able to get barometric readings? if so, could you place some sensors under the front, rear, and on top of the hood and trunk. If anything it would help in understanding our aerodynamics more. I asked my boss last week if I could take my car down the block to the aerofoil guys to put in the wind tunnel....he asked if i like my job :P
and also at speed I figure 100mph+ a wing would help due to the shape and high inclination of the rear window, most cars with large surface area rears tend to develop vaccume (lift) at high speeds (think porsche, 350z and such) but if your finding dictates otherwise then i will abandon chase.
Last thing, before we waste our money on a rear under diffuser, have you had any experience with them, if so, were they positive?
02-06-2009, 12:42 PM
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Aerodynamics is a complex subject and you really need to view the car as a whole - otherwise you're just bolting appendages that may or may not make the car faster or handle any better.
Try reading this (for a bit of background), you might a slightly better understanding of why's and why not's concerning diffusers and wings on race cars. It applies in a general sense to road cars - they just have more compromises such as ride height or a large passenger compartment.
http://www.mhest.com/spotlight/autom...rodynamics.pdf
There’s lot more on google.
Try reading this (for a bit of background), you might a slightly better understanding of why's and why not's concerning diffusers and wings on race cars. It applies in a general sense to road cars - they just have more compromises such as ride height or a large passenger compartment.
http://www.mhest.com/spotlight/autom...rodynamics.pdf
There’s lot more on google.
02-06-2009, 01:39 PM
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Im VERY familier with aero, I am just wondering if ericmeyer is able to get barometric readings on the chassis. without a tunnel, those are the next best things. knowing where pressure develops will give enough of an idea to eliminate issues and grab traction.
02-06-2009, 09:00 PM
#41
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Is the standard MS wing the 2-piece that Eric Meyer spoke of? I never realized there were two elements in the wing until I saw these close-up pics...
02-06-2009, 09:54 PM
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easy, it wasn't aimed at you, but a general comment.
Anther general comment...
The thing to bear in mid with wings and diffusers is that the largest change in lift (and drag) comes with velocity, if you don't have it (or much of it) you won't get a lift force. So bearing that in mind think hard about the likelihood of attached flow on you trunk lid and rear axle area before buying these products and you shouldn't be disappointed (that goes for the front of the car too - big stagnation point).
Anther general comment...
The thing to bear in mid with wings and diffusers is that the largest change in lift (and drag) comes with velocity, if you don't have it (or much of it) you won't get a lift force. So bearing that in mind think hard about the likelihood of attached flow on you trunk lid and rear axle area before buying these products and you shouldn't be disappointed (that goes for the front of the car too - big stagnation point).
02-11-2009, 07:08 AM
#44
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Decent information? I'm betting you are a molded automotive body panel manufacturer or distributor and not an aerodynamic test center, wind tunnel facility or can validate gains or losses WITH DATA.
Guys, the entire reason I contribute to these posts is to counter the crap that is written on here.
Dude, I am not knocking your livlihood or your products, I'm knocking anyone's data that can PROOVE their claims or assumptions that certain products work. If something works and someone can proove it, I'm all over it. Look at the continous evolving F1 cars----CRAZY shapes and Aero. But they work. These guys aren't modifying their cars because they look cool---right? They are trying to go fast. These guys run sensors on their cars that cost HUNDREDS of Thousands of dollars. NO KIDDING. Our little RX8's run about $12K of sensors and data logging equipment.
LET THE BUYER (OF ANYTHING) BEWARE: Some items can HURT the performance of your car. How do you know if you don't measure it?????????? Have any of you ever ported an intake on a piston engine? Those of you who have know that it is very likely that your generous grinding efforts hurt performance. This is well known in the head porting industry. Its not HOW MUCH you port, its WHERE you port. Call your local engine builder or google and you'll easily find this.
Adding a wing, spoiler, diffuser that gives you .5 second of lap time MAY BE DUE TO THE DRIVER DRIVING FASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Total psychological confidence builder may be at work here. You ever put on a new pair of NIKE shoes and you feel like you can run faster/jump higher? We've all done it.
Congratulations if you're driving faster Mr. new product adder. You suck if you conclude that it is due to X, Y, or Z mods when in reality it is something else. Act like a scientist, an engineer or a C.S.I. expert and you will learn more than the majority of people on this forum that enjoy keyboard vomit.
Why do people use a dyno? Why don't they just say that spark plug, pulley, air filter, exhaust makes more power?????? Because you don't know unless you measure it---right?
This is a passionate subject for me as you can see. Perhaps this is the consumer advocate in me that doesn't want a person new to auto modifcations to get duped by cool web sites, high res. photos and "everybody is doin' it" logic.
My hopes are to help people discover that you have to confirm assumptions. This goes for "what is the ideal camber?" and "what is the best wheel diameter?". Dudes, some of this stuff is totally hard to measure and when a guy with the most mods says "19 is the best dude" I cringe and think to myself "what an freakin' idiot". Well, same for you guys that don't question this person and ask for facts.
The BEST thing you can do when you here a claim IS TO ASK FOR FACTS, DATA, ANYTHING.
Happy Rotoring and make good decisions to save your hard earned money.
Eric
No disrespect to any vendors, manufacturers or distributors of products where testing and validation is done to confirm product claims.
02-11-2009, 07:31 AM
#45
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Go here: http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=670127 and scroll down to the pics of the cars in the S2000 challenge series...see how many of them have wings?...so all these guys wasted their money right?
I'm not arguing against you in principle, but most of us don't have $12,000 to drop on aerodynamic research so we have to go with "what others have tried successfully". And like I said, that guy Emilio on the podium in first place would not have been there without his wing.
I'm sure 90% of the people that buy them are dumb-tards that just wanna look cool, but that doesn't mean they don't work. Voltex does wind-tunnel testing on all their wings for example. Not all wings are crap.
I was just trying to see if anyone had used a wing successfully on their RX8. Have any input on that?
I'm not arguing against you in principle, but most of us don't have $12,000 to drop on aerodynamic research so we have to go with "what others have tried successfully". And like I said, that guy Emilio on the podium in first place would not have been there without his wing.
I'm sure 90% of the people that buy them are dumb-tards that just wanna look cool, but that doesn't mean they don't work. Voltex does wind-tunnel testing on all their wings for example. Not all wings are crap.
I was just trying to see if anyone had used a wing successfully on their RX8. Have any input on that?
Last edited by kinchu007; 02-11-2009 at 07:35 AM.
02-11-2009, 02:38 PM
#46
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Go here: http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=670127 and scroll down to the pics of the cars in the S2000 challenge series...see how many of them have wings?...so all these guys wasted their money right?
I'm not arguing against you in principle, but most of us don't have $12,000 to drop on aerodynamic research so we have to go with "what others have tried successfully". And like I said, that guy Emilio on the podium in first place would not have been there without his wing.
I'm sure 90% of the people that buy them are dumb-tards that just wanna look cool, but that doesn't mean they don't work. Voltex does wind-tunnel testing on all their wings for example. Not all wings are crap.
I was just trying to see if anyone had used a wing successfully on their RX8. Have any input on that?
I'm not arguing against you in principle, but most of us don't have $12,000 to drop on aerodynamic research so we have to go with "what others have tried successfully". And like I said, that guy Emilio on the podium in first place would not have been there without his wing.
I'm sure 90% of the people that buy them are dumb-tards that just wanna look cool, but that doesn't mean they don't work. Voltex does wind-tunnel testing on all their wings for example. Not all wings are crap.
I was just trying to see if anyone had used a wing successfully on their RX8. Have any input on that?
Perhaps the guys with 300 hp and rear grip problems have a better answer. I think the stock RX8 doesn't have huge oversteer tendancies that need countered/addressed/fixed. My guess is the S2000's have these tendancies and the wing addresses this----ask your buddy and share your findings. Might be pertinant to this thread.
02-11-2009, 03:27 PM
#47
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I think you're on the right track...most of them are running non-staggered, which on an S2000 (stock is staggered) should cause some massive oversteer without the wing.
As for my setup with the 275/35s all around, for some reason I think I'm getting understeer, which is a huge pain. I keep "washing out" on corner exit, but when i try to add throttle input I lose the rear end and spin out. Sometimes I just wanna go back to stock and start over with very mild mods and just focus on becoming a better driver on crappy OEM tires, suspension and sways.
As for my setup with the 275/35s all around, for some reason I think I'm getting understeer, which is a huge pain. I keep "washing out" on corner exit, but when i try to add throttle input I lose the rear end and spin out. Sometimes I just wanna go back to stock and start over with very mild mods and just focus on becoming a better driver on crappy OEM tires, suspension and sways.
02-11-2009, 04:24 PM
#48
Zoom Zoom....
Here is where I was/am going----even with all our fancy data acq, i was unable to validate that our tiny little wing provided any MEASURABLE benefit.
Perhaps the guys with 300 hp and rear grip problems have a better answer. I think the stock RX8 doesn't have huge oversteer tendancies that need countered/addressed/fixed. My guess is the S2000's have these tendancies and the wing addresses this----ask your buddy and share your findings. Might be pertinant to this thread.
Perhaps the guys with 300 hp and rear grip problems have a better answer. I think the stock RX8 doesn't have huge oversteer tendancies that need countered/addressed/fixed. My guess is the S2000's have these tendancies and the wing addresses this----ask your buddy and share your findings. Might be pertinant to this thread.
Eric, I appreciate your input to this thread.
I think that what most everybody forgets is that it is the Aerodynamic Package that counts. The total airflow and how it is split between the top and bottom of a car is what determines whether it will stick or lift at a given speed.
A lot of time and money is spent by manufacturers and racing teams to find 'balance'.
IMHO, my 'butt dyno' confirms the RX-8's nose lightening at high speeds. I'm grateful that you have quantified it.
Just adding a wing to a given car may or may not have a positive effect, just as adding a rear (or front) diffuser under the car may have the opposite of the desired effect.
At street (most roadcourse) speeds, my (limited compared to yours) racing experience is that suspension tuning, tires, etc. is the quickest bang for your buck to lower lap times in a stock car. The drag Cd's that (most inexpensive) street cars have meant that you have to go to some extremes with wings, etc. to show benefit. However, years ago I raced a mid-'80's IROC Camaro that had scary front-end lift anywhere over 100mph. A deep front spoiler solved that....
02-11-2009, 05:47 PM
#49
In my experiance the car is very neutral. I have gotten it light on the front and in the rear which is why forked out some money and went with the complete MS Aero package, a vented hood, KW Variant 3 coilovers, racing beat anti-roll bars and 245/40/18 nitto NTO1 tires for the track.
02-11-2009, 08:09 PM
#50
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As for my setup with the 275/35s all around, for some reason I think I'm getting understeer, which is a huge pain. I keep "washing out" on corner exit, but when i try to add throttle input I lose the rear end and spin out. Sometimes I just wanna go back to stock and start over with very mild mods and just focus on becoming a better driver on crappy OEM tires, suspension and sways.
Alignment settings
Corner weights
Tire type and pressure settings before and after
Sway bar settings
Spring rates
Description of what TYPE of corners the U-steer occurs and where it does NOT occur
Brief driving history
Any video
send to: meyermotorsports@mac.com
I should be able to help you figure it out. I have a few ideas already.
Eric