Anybody runing TTD in NASA TT?
07-12-2007, 01:41 PM
#27
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Umm... that's not how I read it.
As I see it, the rule under ENGINE/DRIVETRAIN is referring to underdrive pulleys. It makes no mention of assessing points for removal of pulleys, OEM or not. The rule under NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS allows for AC and condenser removal, but is not specific as to what constitutes "AC". I would argue that the AC pulley is part of the AC.
Regardless, you can always leave the pulley and run a different belt that bypasses the AC pulley.
Originally Posted by NASA Time Trial Rulebook
ENGINE/DRIVETRAIN:
9) Replacement pulleys (other than for supercharger) +1
9) Replacement pulleys (other than for supercharger) +1
Originally Posted by NASA Time Trial Rulebook
NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS:
4) AC and condenser removal
4) AC and condenser removal
Regardless, you can always leave the pulley and run a different belt that bypasses the AC pulley.
07-12-2007, 01:44 PM
#28
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Umm... that's not how I read it.
As I see it, the rule under ENGINE/DRIVETRAIN is referring to underdrive pulleys. It makes no mention of assessing points for removal of pulleys, OEM or not. The rule under NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS allows for AC and condenser removal, but is not specific as to what constitutes "AC". I would argue that the AC pulley is part of the AC.
Regardless, you can always leave the pulley and run a different belt that bypasses the AC pulley.
As I see it, the rule under ENGINE/DRIVETRAIN is referring to underdrive pulleys. It makes no mention of assessing points for removal of pulleys, OEM or not. The rule under NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS allows for AC and condenser removal, but is not specific as to what constitutes "AC". I would argue that the AC pulley is part of the AC.
Regardless, you can always leave the pulley and run a different belt that bypasses the AC pulley.
07-12-2007, 01:44 PM
#29
Avenger, do you ever make it up to MSR near DFW? I'd like to get back into doing some track days, and might end up converting my B Stock RX-8 over to a TTD car in the next couple of years. I'd be curious to see how a B Stock car on V710s (my car currently racks up +14 according to NASA's rules) stacks up against your car.
By my reckoning, you could build a pretty competitive TTD car, starting with an RX-8:
Shocks: +3
Springs: +2 (you could have a pretty sophisticated set of double-adjustable coilover shocks built that would still avoid the +7 assessment)
Sway bars: +2
Exhaust: +1 (no power, but shave 35+ pounds out of the car pretty easily)
245 width V710s: +10
Total: +18 <--- Still in TTD, and can take another 19 pounds in weight loss figuring the alternate min. comp. weight with that last point
Add in some of the "freebie" mods (shorter final drive, lightweight clutch and flywheel, remove a/c and radio), and you'd have to ballast to make min. weight. I'm 205#, and based on what my car weighed in track trim at the Houston SCCA National Tour, I'm only about 5# over the minimum competition weight as it is right now. Get a lighter driver and/or start ripping out free components, and it's time to add ballast.
By my reckoning, you could build a pretty competitive TTD car, starting with an RX-8:
Shocks: +3
Springs: +2 (you could have a pretty sophisticated set of double-adjustable coilover shocks built that would still avoid the +7 assessment)
Sway bars: +2
Exhaust: +1 (no power, but shave 35+ pounds out of the car pretty easily)
245 width V710s: +10
Total: +18 <--- Still in TTD, and can take another 19 pounds in weight loss figuring the alternate min. comp. weight with that last point
Add in some of the "freebie" mods (shorter final drive, lightweight clutch and flywheel, remove a/c and radio), and you'd have to ballast to make min. weight. I'm 205#, and based on what my car weighed in track trim at the Houston SCCA National Tour, I'm only about 5# over the minimum competition weight as it is right now. Get a lighter driver and/or start ripping out free components, and it's time to add ballast.
07-12-2007, 03:03 PM
#31
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07-12-2007, 03:49 PM
#32
The AC runs on it's own belt and drive pulley separate from the main alternator and water pump drive system. The AC drive pulley is a separate part that bolts on in place with the main drive pulley on the e-shaft nose.
So you can remove the AC unit in whole including the drive pulley without needing any mods.
So you can remove the AC unit in whole including the drive pulley without needing any mods.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 07-12-2007 at 03:52 PM.
07-12-2007, 03:59 PM
#33
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I'm not even thinking about it that much. I guess my only real goal is to be competitive. Im sure there are going to be some tough cars in TTD to beat but I'm not going to monkey too much with the car past what I've done to it (except for a cage, seat, and harness). Occasionally I do feel unsettled with what I'm doing with the car and at the speeds.
I've been to MSR up in Cresson. I'm actually going up there this weekend for a DE. I LOVE that new section of the track. Great elevation changes and love working the 180* corners. Great track. Even in the rain. Teaches driver control.
I've been to MSR up in Cresson. I'm actually going up there this weekend for a DE. I LOVE that new section of the track. Great elevation changes and love working the 180* corners. Great track. Even in the rain. Teaches driver control.
07-12-2007, 04:12 PM
#34
The AC runs on it's own belt and drive pulley separate from the main alternator and water pump drive system. The AC drive pulley is a separate part that bolts on in place with the main drive pulley on the e-shaft nose.
So you can remove the AC unit in whole including the drive pulley without needing any mods.
So you can remove the AC unit in whole including the drive pulley without needing any mods.
we talked about and looked at this a couple of weeks ago, RD. I guess if they are not going ot asess any points and you want to retain the a/c you could always just take off the drive belt for the weekend.
07-12-2007, 10:28 PM
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Personally I would rather try and get the last tenth out of my driving before I start ripping off belts on my car. But like you said, if it makes a big deal I might be more open to the work
07-13-2007, 07:21 AM
#42
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You guys are way too concerned over that damn ac. Unless you're prepping a full out race car I just don't see the continuous tangible benefit. Just as a point of contention ... The last time I was out on track on the 2nd day I ran with the A/C turned on! I kept forgetting I had it on because I was baking in the car while waiting on grid so I kept it on while I was waiting. When the grid marshall released us I totally forgot turn it off (4 times that day ... yes I'm a little absent minded occasionally). Here's the kicker ... I was almost as fast as I was without it on and passed the same cars that I normally did. In fact there wasn't enough of a difference until I pitted and realized I had cold air blowing in my face (lap times differed by 0.11 ac vs. no ac).
See when I feel that I'm slow around any part of the track or the track as a whole, I don't touch the car. I go find someone who is turning faster times and go look at their line (either by riding along or tailing them next session). Of course this is in relation to our cars (I'm not going to go try and take an AWD line). Most of the time I realize that there is somethings he does better than me and me something better than him. I try to incorporate that into my driving and poof typically after that I can keep up.
I just don't see the belt removal as being beneficial unless you're already at the edge of what the car can do (and honestly does anyone think they are?). I still see the rx8 as a momentum car. I'll do stuff that helps me keep speed rather finding ways to speed up faster. It's not like Nasa TT clocks you from a stop.
Anyway ... my $0.02.
See when I feel that I'm slow around any part of the track or the track as a whole, I don't touch the car. I go find someone who is turning faster times and go look at their line (either by riding along or tailing them next session). Of course this is in relation to our cars (I'm not going to go try and take an AWD line). Most of the time I realize that there is somethings he does better than me and me something better than him. I try to incorporate that into my driving and poof typically after that I can keep up.
I just don't see the belt removal as being beneficial unless you're already at the edge of what the car can do (and honestly does anyone think they are?). I still see the rx8 as a momentum car. I'll do stuff that helps me keep speed rather finding ways to speed up faster. It's not like Nasa TT clocks you from a stop.
Anyway ... my $0.02.
07-13-2007, 09:07 AM
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And I don't see the harm in A/C discussion when the subject is prepping the cars for competitive events where every .01 of a second can be the difference between earning points and not.
Personally, I'll still be driving my RX-8 on the street so I'm not giving up A/C or having a roll cage installed, or do anything drastic.
07-13-2007, 09:13 AM
#46
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I dunno ... having a roll cage is just a safety thing. Just like having a harness. I'm honestly to the point where I'm holding back because I don't have a cage.
As for the whole AC thing. Time a lap with the belt on and then time a lap with no belt. Lets see the difference.
As for the whole AC thing. Time a lap with the belt on and then time a lap with no belt. Lets see the difference.
07-13-2007, 09:25 AM
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I dunno ... having a roll cage is just a safety thing. Just like having a harness. I'm honestly to the point where I'm holding back because I don't have a cage.
As for the whole AC thing. Time a lap with the belt on and then time a lap with no belt. Lets see the difference.
As for the whole AC thing. Time a lap with the belt on and then time a lap with no belt. Lets see the difference.
07-13-2007, 02:23 PM
#49
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Wow. 4 point cage. ... do you guys really like driving the car at its limits on the track without one? Haven't seen a car roll on track? Watch what happens to hood.
07-13-2007, 02:30 PM
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You do know they also wrap the bars in the areas where it could come in contact with you with foam. I'm mean it's not the best but its better than bare metal. And also a 4 point cage is BEHIND you but it will save your head from being smashed in the event of a roll over.